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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:52 pm
Catharia I'm just going to repost something I said in another guild here...because as a cat I'm made of lazy...and I don't think I've ever been as eloquent xd Catharia If the father wants the baby, and I mean really wants it, and the mother doesn't, then that should be something they need to sort out between themselves. A friend of mine got pregnant to a man she later broke up with (before she knew of the sprog). She didn't want the baby, because she couldn't take care of it on her own, but he did want it when she told him. So she carried it to term, and handed it over to him, and his new partner (who was apparently overjoyed), and they cut all ties between her and the baby, including financial ones, and as far as I know the baby thinks the other women is his mum. They drew up all sorts of legal documents to get this done, but all parties were happy with the result. I think the same should be applicable for mothers who want the baby and fathers who don't. The fathers should be able to opt out, especially in those cases that the woman gets pregnant in order to keep the man in the failing relationship. Of course this should be reviewed on a case by case basis, but I still think the father should have a say. It's not just a matter of the mother sustaining the parasite/foetus, and carrying it to term, it's also the father's genetic investment. I'm pro-choice, but I think it should be a joint descision if they are, or were a couple. If the father was a one night stand, that's not something the mother should have to live with...though she should have known better.
My sister got pregnant on purpose to try and save her marriage. Needless to say, it didn't work. They are still having problems. I say she's stupid. My pregnancy was not planned, but I wanted her. I had three abortions scheduled and never went to any. I'm so glad I didn't go.
But yea, if the father does not want the baby, then fine. They should sort it out themselves and not drag a ton of people in to it. It's sad to break up/divorce over a child, but it happens.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:03 pm
Lateralus Helica Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. tottally agreed here, save for the "lesser of two evils" bit. i always hated that mentality. Depends on how you look at it and what exactly the scenario is, honestly. If the situation was with say a husband who's vasectomy failed and they went for it right after the first menstruation was missed, I'd definitely agree with you. Nothing really evil there as far as that goes. It's later in the pregnancy where it gets really tricky and then those women who, few in number though they are, use abortion as a regular type of birth control instead of bothering to even try another option. i see good and evil as subjective concepts.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:26 pm
Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. tottally agreed here, save for the "lesser of two evils" bit. i always hated that mentality. Depends on how you look at it and what exactly the scenario is, honestly. If the situation was with say a husband who's vasectomy failed and they went for it right after the first menstruation was missed, I'd definitely agree with you. Nothing really evil there as far as that goes. It's later in the pregnancy where it gets really tricky and then those women who, few in number though they are, use abortion as a regular type of birth control instead of bothering to even try another option. i see good and evil as subjective concepts. For the most part yes, but you can't deny that there are some things that most healthy humans will give the 'evil' stigma to. Such as cruelly torturing, raping, and finally murdering a person. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that honestly doesn't believe that such a thing is evil. It's like Robert Pirsig's take on 'quality'. Some things just defy definition. But you are correct, which is why I said depends on how you look at it. It's why I'd rather prefer we get to the point where we don't have to bother with abortions themselves.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:29 pm
Lateralus Helica Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. tottally agreed here, save for the "lesser of two evils" bit. i always hated that mentality. Depends on how you look at it and what exactly the scenario is, honestly. If the situation was with say a husband who's vasectomy failed and they went for it right after the first menstruation was missed, I'd definitely agree with you. Nothing really evil there as far as that goes. It's later in the pregnancy where it gets really tricky and then those women who, few in number though they are, use abortion as a regular type of birth control instead of bothering to even try another option. i see good and evil as subjective concepts. For the most part yes, but you can't deny that there are some things that most healthy humans will give the 'evil' stigma to. Such as cruelly torturing, raping, and finally murdering a person. You'll be hard-pressed to find anyone that honestly doesn't believe that such a thing is evil. It's like Robert Pirsig's take on 'quality'. Some things just defy definition. But you are correct, which is why I said depends on how you look at it. It's why I'd rather prefer we get to the point where we don't have to bother with abortions themselves. those people do exist though, ya know. their called sociopaths. i myself may be inclined to classify omething as evil by my own personal definitions, but i try to avoid that habit out of the very princible that i do not believe in good and evil. i believe that there is what a person is capable and willing to do. this all comes down to personal moral values, or lack thereof. but yes, it would definately be preffered to prevent the need for abortions as much as possible.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:34 am
a woman sociologist i read did a large scale survey of women who had had abortions, and most of them said they did it to please some man or other, their lover or dad or father.
so it's not so liberating after all, if that's really the motive.
therefore i say it is a social moral issue and involves a power relationship between men and women but is not so clear cut as we imagine.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:11 am
chessiejo a woman sociologist i read did a large scale survey of women who had had abortions, and most of them said they did it to please some man or other, their lover or dad or father. so it's not so liberating after all, if that's really the motive. therefore i say it is a social moral issue and involves a power relationship between men and women but is not so clear cut as we imagine.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:41 am
Logically speaking we really don't know at what point an embryo becomes a person. The first month it's nothing more than a lump of cells containing human DNA but later it is in a shape recognizable as a person. The moral issue lies in when is an embryo a person? The female issue lies in that, if there is a point when an embryo isn't a person, does that woman have the right to terminate this embryo from becoming a person?
Religiously, I am morally opposed to abortion because my tradition teaches that life starts at conception and I have my personal reasons for agreeing with that stance.
Since the law recognizes that there is a point where an embryo is not a person and not everyone is the same religion as myself, I am pro-choice in this regard. If one wishes to have an abortion, I may try to offer alternatives to abortion but I'm not going to outlaw it because I don't know others' circumstances and there is the chance that my tradition might be wrong on this matter. Hell that lump of tissue might actually be no different than one's sperms or eggs for all I know. Until a conclusion or consensuses can be made at when an embryo is considered a person, I'd leave the law as is.
I will notice that I have noticed a bit of a double standard in that a woman is stigmatized and labeled a "slut" for getting pregnant, if she's young and at the same time stigmatized as being a "murderer" or "evil" if she gets an abortion for an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy. This is something I find quite horrible and sickening to be honest.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:02 am
Lateralus Helica The only problem I have with your post is the fact that contraceptives don't always work. I don't know what the percentage of abortions for failed birth control is but it is a good number. Beyond that, I agree with you completely. I'm personally of the opinion that the only time a pregnancy should be considered 'pro-choice' is during the first trimester. Second trimester abortions should only be done on a situational basis with a professional determining whether or not one is warranted, and third keep illegal. Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. Yes, contraceptives don't ALWAYS work, but there are so many couples who don't bother at all. It would cut down pregnancy if they did. And if they used two at once (the pill, and a condom) then there would be much less chance with it. You are so right in the last paragraph, you basically said what I was trying to get at with my mindless angry rambling. It's just a girl at school fell pregnant recently. Her age is 13. Her boyfriend is 14. Why were they at it already in the first place? She's keeping a child she cannot support and the boyfriend left her after her first MONTH of pregnancy? The world today is a disgrace. Before I even dream of having a child I would think a steady job I enjoy as a result of a good education is best.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:12 am
divineseraph You would mandate abortion? Disgusting. Also, you seem to not know how pregnancy works- At the time of abortion, fetuses have developed bone and brain, and even fingers, though they may still be webbed. This is not a "recently joined cell", it is a growing, developing human being taking its natural, biological course. Most abortions occur around 8 weeks, and by this point it is far from a "clump of cells", unless you're referring to the fact that all life is a compilation of cells, from humans to birds to elephants. A fetus is a human life, as defined by basic biology. It is impossible to draw lines after conception as of when "life" begins because the growth of an individual does not happen in direct steps- It is a slow progression. If you are going by memory and awareness, then a toddler is fair game to be killed- It does not have the awareness of you or I. If we are going by the dependence on another, those in comas are no longer people, nor are those with more severe mental disabilities. If we are going by legal personhood status, legal personhood has been denied to all sorts of born people, and the law is by no means an objective unit of determining right and wrong. You're actually quite dumb aren't you? Looking at your argument with the other person before I, you seem to know anything about having a child. If you can't look after it, you can't look after it. How could a man understand? Seriously, you can never be pregnant, and even though male rape exsists, you would have emotional scars but you wouldn't have a psychical reminder of it! If you have been raped, you wouldn't want the thing inside you to exsist. Want to know something about sexual abuse? I couldn't leave the house for three months, terrified he would see me again, that I would have to see HIM again. What would that have been if that was a rape? If I had been impregnated? At THIRTEEN YEARS OLD? I was, and am, too young. The consequences of a child is crippling at that age. And as for your very weak argument on toddlers, of course they know who you are. A fetus is barely a human, it's not got any memory, or awareness yet. So therefore you're causing less pain than a life in adoption or a life of hatred and shortcomings from parents who didn't want you. I didn't mean I would enforce it, and I can see how I come across as meaning that down to poor wording, but I would be thorughly disgusted seeing someone way too young with a kid. It's a kid having a kid. Can you not see the problems there? Are you too blinded by your made-up authority to see that? Bottom line is, it's not your choice. Women can choose. So argue away, it's legal, honey.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:51 pm
Aakosir chessiejo a woman sociologist i read did a large scale survey of women who had had abortions, and most of them said they did it to please some man or other, their lover or dad or father. so it's not so liberating after all, if that's really the motive. therefore i say it is a social moral issue and involves a power relationship between men and women but is not so clear cut as we imagine. why can't it be both?
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:11 pm
Tourniquet Static divineseraph You would mandate abortion? Disgusting. Also, you seem to not know how pregnancy works- At the time of abortion, fetuses have developed bone and brain, and even fingers, though they may still be webbed. This is not a "recently joined cell", it is a growing, developing human being taking its natural, biological course. Most abortions occur around 8 weeks, and by this point it is far from a "clump of cells", unless you're referring to the fact that all life is a compilation of cells, from humans to birds to elephants. A fetus is a human life, as defined by basic biology. It is impossible to draw lines after conception as of when "life" begins because the growth of an individual does not happen in direct steps- It is a slow progression. If you are going by memory and awareness, then a toddler is fair game to be killed- It does not have the awareness of you or I. If we are going by the dependence on another, those in comas are no longer people, nor are those with more severe mental disabilities. If we are going by legal personhood status, legal personhood has been denied to all sorts of born people, and the law is by no means an objective unit of determining right and wrong. You're actually quite dumb aren't you? Looking at your argument with the other person before I, you seem to know anything about having a child. If you can't look after it, you can't look after it. How could a man understand? Seriously, you can never be pregnant, and even though male rape exsists, you would have emotional scars but you wouldn't have a psychical reminder of it! YOU THINK A MAN CAN'T UNDERSTAND!? ******** YOU! I FOR ONE WORRY DAILY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT I HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO TAKE CARE OF MY CHILDREN! I HAVE TODDLER QUADRUPLETS, TODDLER TWINS AND TWO OTHER INFANT BABIES! EIGHT CHILDREN! CARED FOR BY MYSELF, MY SLAVE, MY WIFE AND MY CO-HUSBAND! it's a rather large family, and one that is not exactly welcome most places. between balancing school and work and housekeeping, as well as more than occaisional hatred from redneck conservatives, we do alright financially but it's a tough thing to dealw ith! i for one am the proudest father i can be, but even i have fears. how the hell am i supposed to handle the thought that i might screw up? that i might not be able to provide enough? or how do i deal with the possibility that my own horrible relationship with my family (especially my stepdad and my biological father) might influence my relationship with my own children? what i f they grow up to hate me? i am dreading the teen years because of this, and i can't even find anything on the web about fathers who go through this. i feel very alone in that regard! but damnit, i know for a fact that there are men who have the widest ranges of emotions and thoughts regarding children and pregnancy. it's NOT only women! Quote: If you have been raped, you wouldn't want the thing inside you to exsist. Want to know something about sexual abuse? I couldn't leave the house for three months, terrified he would see me again, that I would have to see HIM again. What would that have been if that was a rape? If I had been impregnated? At THIRTEEN YEARS OLD? I was, and am, too young. The consequences of a child is crippling at that age. there is no denying that rape is terrafying, and leads to absolute hatred. there is no denying that even the face of one's rapist can send one into uncontrolable fis of tears sometimes, and at the very least you'll always grit your teeth at the thought. but i know that if i could have become pregnant the way a woman does i'd be happy for that much. i'd be terrafied, and find any help i could, but damnit, i'd be carrying a baby of my own! that's the most amazing thing in the world. and that child has done nothing to deserve my hatred. to be reminded of someone you hate and then hate that child for that reminder is nothing more than a (understandable, but still not excusable) displacement of emotion. and guess what. the Quadruplets of mine, two boys and two girls, are the product of me being raped by catholic girl. evil they are rape babies. her mom told me i wasn't allowed to ever see them. then she put them up for adoption. by law, i'm not fit to be a parent. but when i found out that she didn't even keep them, i did what i had to do to get them back. now i'm in a custody battle over them. she doesn'teven want to keep them, she just doesn't want me to have them. they are MY babies! Quote: And as for your very weak argument on toddlers, of course they know who you are. A fetus is barely a human, it's not got any memory, or awareness yet. So therefore you're causing less pain than a life in adoption or a life of hatred and shortcomings from parents who didn't want you. you act as though there arn't people in the world lik me, who would do anything to have a baby. who would be so happy to adopt. being an adopted child has alot of emotional benefits you know. the reassurance that there are people who DO love you, and teh reminder that loyalty doesn't have to placed solely in blood-relations. family isn't just about genetics, it's about love. if parents disown or put up for adoption any child of theirs, they are no longer that child's parents. they are not family. Quote: I didn't mean I would enforce it, and I can see how I come across as meaning that down to poor wording, but I would be thorughly disgusted seeing someone way too young with a kid. It's a kid having a kid. Can you not see the problems there? Are you too blinded by your made-up authority to see that? it isn't even about whether you'd enforce it. it's about the way you see it that's so disgusting. i'm certainly not going to say that kids can't take care of kids. but damnit, that doesn't mean they can't just letsomeone else raise that child, who wants to have kids.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:16 pm
Tourniquet Static divineseraph You would mandate abortion? Disgusting. Also, you seem to not know how pregnancy works- At the time of abortion, fetuses have developed bone and brain, and even fingers, though they may still be webbed. This is not a "recently joined cell", it is a growing, developing human being taking its natural, biological course. Most abortions occur around 8 weeks, and by this point it is far from a "clump of cells", unless you're referring to the fact that all life is a compilation of cells, from humans to birds to elephants. A fetus is a human life, as defined by basic biology. It is impossible to draw lines after conception as of when "life" begins because the growth of an individual does not happen in direct steps- It is a slow progression. If you are going by memory and awareness, then a toddler is fair game to be killed- It does not have the awareness of you or I. If we are going by the dependence on another, those in comas are no longer people, nor are those with more severe mental disabilities. If we are going by legal personhood status, legal personhood has been denied to all sorts of born people, and the law is by no means an objective unit of determining right and wrong. You're actually quite dumb aren't you? Looking at your argument with the other person before I, you seem to know anything about having a child. If you can't look after it, you can't look after it. How could a man understand? Seriously, you can never be pregnant, and even though male rape exsists, you would have emotional scars but you wouldn't have a psychical reminder of it! If you have been raped, you wouldn't want the thing inside you to exsist. Want to know something about sexual abuse? I couldn't leave the house for three months, terrified he would see me again, that I would have to see HIM again. What would that have been if that was a rape? If I had been impregnated? At THIRTEEN YEARS OLD? I was, and am, too young. The consequences of a child is crippling at that age. And as for your very weak argument on toddlers, of course they know who you are. A fetus is barely a human, it's not got any memory, or awareness yet. So therefore you're causing less pain than a life in adoption or a life of hatred and shortcomings from parents who didn't want you. I didn't mean I would enforce it, and I can see how I come across as meaning that down to poor wording, but I would be thorughly disgusted seeing someone way too young with a kid. It's a kid having a kid. Can you not see the problems there? Are you too blinded by your made-up authority to see that? Bottom line is, it's not your choice. Women can choose. So argue away, it's legal, honey. No, buy it seems you might be. That's not relevant in the least, for two reasons- Firstly, because it is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Secondly, because I never argued from the point that anyone should be able to take care of a child. If a woman has a child and suddenly loses her job, should she kill the child since she can no longer care for it? I never argued against abortion in the case of rape. Strawman logical fallacy. You're looking dumber and dumber by the sentence. Do you remember being two? If you do, that's quite impressive. How about one? You didn't remember jack. So what's the difference, if consciousness is the key to when a person becomes a person? And can you really decide for someone else which life is worth living? Would you want someone to decide for you? It's a kid having a kid, or a kid killing a kid. Neither situation is desirable, but given the two, and knowing that adoption exists, I would say that the first is less evil. Bottom line, n*ggers are property. It's legal, argue away honey. (Argument made from the perspective of a slave owner. Refute it. Go ahead, try.)
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:11 pm
I think it depends on where one lives. Where I live, it's a moral issue, as everyone in my area is christian. Personally though, I think that if you get pregnant under the age of 18, one should HAVE to have an abortion, unless one can prove that one can be mentally, physically, and financially able to take care of the child.
As a side note, is anyone here getting really annoyed at seeing pregnant highschoolers in large groups walking down the street dressed like slut? (I am.)
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:48 pm
All I can say about things is this...
When I was pregnant, by the time I could feel kicking I started to notice trends with the growing child inside of me. With my first, he was a kicker, we would play Linkin Park or Creed and he would stir right up and start kicking, if he wasn't already. If I wanted to settle him down, I would play Evanescence. To this day those are some of his favorite bands.
My daughter was the same way, only her favorites seemed to be my jazz, blues, and diva music. She would hum songs that she heard while I was pregnant with her when she was only 8 months old. She is 3 now, and very musically talented.
Both times while I was pregnant, my children responded to their fathers voice, and my parents and brothers, and the friends we hung out with most. They didn't respond when other people were talking. That proved to me that they could recognize things.
My husband was more pregnant than I was most of the time, and he would even call me when he or I was at work, already having an instinct of what I was feeling. He worried more than I did about the kids and if we were doing things right. If a man is with his woman for the long haul, I have seen that they have just as many hormone issues as us gals.
I think my labor bothered my husband more than it hurt me, and all he could think about was that our child or I might not make it through this. Frankly, I am glad I was on this side of the pregnancy than his side.
I was blessed to have someone to go through my pregnancy with. I feel very bad for those who go at it alone. Abortion should not be taken as likely as it is in today's society. For that matter, neither should sex. If someone is able to consent to sex, they are old enough to realize what the risks are, and to deal with the consequences.
If a person cannot raise a child, then a loving and caring family is fairly easy to find (in the US anyway) who would adopt the child without hesitation. I know several couples who want children, but can't have them. They would love a baby all the more because they realize how precious a child is, and they would appreciate the effort it takes to bring a child into the world.
I think there are exceptions to everything, and those who are raped, or there is physical danger involved, then the option of abortion can be considered. I think in rape and incest cases there should be some mandatory counseling involved before the deed is done. There are several people who can deal just fine with aborting a rape baby, but there are others who come to think of their baby the only good thing to come out of something so horrendous. There should be some way to get a predetermination of what the best thing for a woman's psyche before they commit to what can't be undone.
And don't tell me that I can't have any idea of what I'm talking about. I have worked with women that have been in these circumstances, and I have seen regret for abortions, and I have seen people able to move on because of them. I have seen women come to terms and even be happy for having a child that they did not consent to, and I have seen women relive a horrible moment of there lives over again when they looked at their baby, yet even still they love their child. I had a friend who had a baby when she was 9, but today, when in her 30's she is glad that she was made to keep her baby.
So, I have came to a solid conclusion that abortion "just because" a person doesn't want a baby yet is a bad thing and an easy out, and a way for people to act irresponsibly.
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:56 pm
Chieftain Twilight Aakosir chessiejo a woman sociologist i read did a large scale survey of women who had had abortions, and most of them said they did it to please some man or other, their lover or dad or father. so it's not so liberating after all, if that's really the motive. therefore i say it is a social moral issue and involves a power relationship between men and women but is not so clear cut as we imagine. why can't it be both?
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