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 Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:22 pm
zabazor A person can not EVER become a GOD!!! I believe a god must come from the higher forces. This does not mean men are not derived from this force, but there is a different concentration. Gods may be capable of taking on flesh, but it doesn't happen often, and I myself do not beleive in such things. The belief in a god makes the god real. This is what gives pagans bad names. This idea of "lightning from fingertips" magic is preposterous. Now lets look at the source of this information. A TV show, but not any TV show, a cartoon. I apologize for my aggression, but do you really wish for us to take this seriously? Not all you see on TV is accurate. But aside, it is an interesting question, but a question I'm sure you knew the answer to prior. To answer the real question...what makes a god. Mericals are cheap tricks and prayer is a bonus. The only true thing required to make a god is the belief that it is a god. That's how cults are formed thinking men are gods, and if it is real for someone, it is just as real as any god.
I do not take Light's claim seriously, but what makes a god a god is so ambiguous and poorly-defined, I thought it would be fun to get some ideas. I did not know the answer as there is no one answer. I don't worship any god, so it is not an issue for me. But it's important to me to get a variety of viewpoints. If you read the first couple of pages, you'll see how opinions obviously differ.
I am also not asking what god you believe in but what the distinction is between god and mortal.
That being said, are you saying that only the belief in a god is real?
If there really was a god that consciously created us and watches over us, is it not more real than just an idea?
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:28 pm
Quote: A person can not EVER become a GOD!!! Depending on what you believe in, you can. Such as the Bible encourages people to reach towards deity. But I do not know what set of "holy books" you believe in, so I will withdraw from that point.
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:33 pm
What is a god? ....Good question...Hmm....Well, immortality tends to be the typical requirement, along with some influence over at least part of the world... But I have little idea what else would make a deity a deity. A significant amount of worshippers might help, I suppose...
It's possible for a mortal to become like a god, but I'm not sure about actually replacing or becoming one. The whole immortality thing tends to be a roadblock, ya know? lol. According to the...Qabbalah, (I keep forgetting how to spell it. x3) There were two trees in the Garden of Eden that kept us from becoming like God. We've eaten from the tree that gave us the knowledge, now there's just the Tree of Life..
Of course the definition of what a god is changes from person to person. Some might view it/them as more of a force than a physical being. I've heard of God being an inner voice, the subconscious. I myself view God and gods as a single being that live primarily on a different level of reality and chooses to use different names and faces. If you can understand that... xP
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:44 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx Here's the thing though-I don't want to change my mind. The minute I decide there's no God and life has no purpose, is the minute I look up the least painful way to die and do just that. I'd leave a note for my mom and little sister, but there's nothing really except knowing there's a God and my life has a purpose that keeps me tied to this earth. This site has a a lot of links that show how it's Noah's Ark could work: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/ark_feasible.htmlThere's also different theories like the area where Noah lived was flooded, but not the rest of the planet. I think the story's plausible though. Some things that God did back then were connected with science, but just because man can explain something doesn't mean it's any less miraculous. And there are still miracles, but you have to realize the major ones did tend to be anywhere from years to centuries apart. We could be in a dry spot (though a lot of Christians are expecting the end of the world. That'll be big ) The minor ones people tend to rationalize away. I think we've been over this before, but let's see....They're both up to interpretation, but if one sent His Son to die for us, and the other seems to decieve with the intention of harming us, who do you think's on our side? Especially when the former is greaer and could've killed all of mankind off in a heart beat, but instead works for our benefit. Warned, and there had to be choice or it would've been enslavement. If we didn't hve choice, it's likely we'd be like animals. He does-we have a conscience and the Holy Spirit, the ability to pray, and the majority of the world is gaining access to Bibles. And there's always the believer who pops out of nowhere because they have a revelation of Jesus. No, because He loves us. That's why the most sincere belivers join. Then God wouldn't make them laws. He's not punishing people-it's their choice. Good flows from God, and the abscence of Him is why you get a place like Hell. When people choose not to be with Him, they end up going where He's not, so naturally it's an extraordinarily uncomfortable and painful place. Then why are there books about Muslims and others who have, out of nowhere, had a revelation of Jesus? Because a god I'd be comfortable with is one who'd provide me with anything I want, not have any demands on me, wouldn't do anything bad to non-believers, wouldn't care whether people were gay, was elemental, had a great love of animals, who I didn't owe anything to. Because He didn't just want a bunch of animals. And I don't, because I blame mankind and satan, not God, and because I happen to think He can do whatever He likes with His creation. Faith. Faith, and because those other religions have so many holes it's not funny. Plus I don't know of any evil gods in other religions, and there's too many coincideces. How do you know my seein five butterflies the summer I prayed for them when previously I might have seen one isn't proof of Him? There's no way to prove which one of us is 100% correct. That's fine. You do know that since so much of this depends on interpretation I'm proably never gonna prove anything to you, and vice verse, right?
I've struggled with the ethics of debating theism before for that exact reason. This is a thread I made in the Gaian Atheists United guild about that exact topic. I'm pretty sure the guild is public, so you should be able to read it. It's why I bring my debates here instead of in real life.
I'm not going to go into detail on the things wrong with the site, but few of their arguments seemed very solid and in general they seem to require a lot of faith. If you want detailed responses, you can always make a separate thread on the possibility of Noah's Ark. A much more plausible answer for why the story doesn't make sense with what we now know of the world is that the people piecing together the details of the story had a limited understanding of how the world works. This is why most Christians I know recognize the story as little more than a teaching device.
Why would God be so eager to make himself known then though and be so silent now? It might make more sense if He did not want us to know/worship Him, but He clearly expects both of those things from us.
It is not a bad thing that people rationalize away minor miracles because there usually is a rational explanation. And if there is a rational explanation for a miracle, whether it was indeed caused by God or not, it is unreasonable to assume that it was.
I'm going to try to sum up a lot of the ideas that I've posted in a clear, organized way.
Let's assume for a moment that there is a God who has existed forever and always will exist. This God created everything that has ever existed. Factor in that this God is all-knowing. It knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. So this God has created everything and knows the exact consequence for everything He creates and all of the infinite consequences of those consequences. If that is true, that everything in existence, good or bad, is His fault. Our mistakes our His mistakes, because He created us knowing that we would make them. Anything that Satan does, He has done, because He created him.
That is why I believe that anything bad that has happened in the world is His fault, if He did exits.
With that reasoning, I say that He should not have had to have His son die because He could have prevented needing a savior.
And He clearly wants us to be slaves. He obviously wants to be known and worshiped because any person that does not know and worship Him is sentenced to a life of unimaginable suffering and torture in Hell. I know we've debated this, so I'll organize my exact thoughts on this too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument I keep getting against the fact that God does this out of spite is that humans with sin can not exist in Heaven because of there sin. The only way to be saved by sin is through Him. The only alternative to Heaven to those with any sin (meaning that regardless of the lives they have led, they are sinful because they did not choose Him), is Hell. For eternity. And this is all despite the fact that He loves each and every one of us more than we can ever imagine and wants us to be saved. With my reasoning before, I believe that a truly perfect God could make it so that we would not need saving. But regardless, at no point does He try to tweak His paradise so that we, the sinful, may live in it. No where does He attempt to create another afterlife for the sinful, depending on personal interpretation. These all seem to be little more than mistakes by God. But God doesn't make mistakes.
No one would choose to go to Hell. Even the teenage angst-theists who claim they would prefer Hell to living with an unjust God would almost certainly praise Him if it meant escaping Hell. People are unknowingly sentencing themselves to Hell because they are flawed which is ultimately God's fault. This also means that anybody who was not exposed to Christianity or did not blindly guess that Christianity was the right religion suffer as well because they were not saved from sin, right?
I can reach no other conclusion that God is either spiteful or fallible if Hell is true.
But there's no reason to guess that Christianity is the true religion and that all of the others are false. Other religions can explain everything you can. Many of them provide more reasonable explanations and/or require less blind faith. So can psychology, biology, and many other "ologies". And with no divine intervention from God, except by those who desperately wish to see it, there's no reason to assume that Christianity is the true religion.
Isn't Jesus a prophet in Islam? Also, I've yet to hear of any case of someone with no exposure to Christianity coming to the revelation that they should follow Christianity, let alone a believable one.
For the reasons above, I believe that He very much does want mindless slaves. Also, anything that mankind, Satan, or anything else in existence does is ultimately His fault. If He treats His creations with cruelty or neglect, doesn't that make Him cruel or neglectful?
Faith may be fine for you, but faith is not reason. In my mind, it is like saying that there is no reason to believe that your god is not created by man other than that you'd really like it not to be true.
I feel that you are viewing all other religions through Christian goggles.
Christianity is full of holes and paradoxes that you choose not to see or find complicated rationalizations for. I know I'm being a little condescending, but it's not fair to make such incredible excuses for your own religion and scrutinize others based on Christianity's expectations.
I know, but putting my ideas into words like this helps me solidify and organize them. It makes my own beliefs stronger and more detailed. Debating like this improves my skills in persuading. Also, I always like having my own perception of reality questioned.< <)>>Dang, now I want to post there. I mean, you guys are talking about FMA, and as much I think he's wrong, I heart Ed. whee
I may do that, but tonight I'm feeling too lazy. XD
You mean why are the huge miracles few and far between? I have no idea. I'll ask when I get to Heaven, but I think it's because He wants us to seek Him and have faith instead of constantly having to hold our hands and reinforce the fact He's there. I think He wants us to come to Him because it's personal and He loves us, rathr then because everyone knows huge things have been happening and it's because of Him (which with the internet and all those cameras, if a few huge miracles happened, everyone would know who it probably was).
Not if you think He created the earth.
I don't know why, but I find I can't blame Him. I've met Him, and I don't see any fault in Him except for the fact He loves, and wants love, and that's hardly a fault. I don't think it's His fault Lucifer turned, and I do think that when we ate the fruit it was out of our own choice, and that by giving us choice He let Himself be blinded as to what we were going to do. And the cost for Him was so high. Hanging on the cross? I can't see that the Holy Spirit and the Father didn't feel that too, and it's unbelievably painful. There'a stake in your wrists and ankles, and when you slump you can't breath, so you have to push aginst the stake in your ankles. I think a doctor even said the stakes hit a nerve in your wrist, which is also extraordinarily painful. So He let all the horror happen, even though it meant Him dying this way, and the watching those He loves suffer. There's gotta be a good reason.
I've also said before I think it's more like the Great Divorce, or that what Tsukiyo believes is plausible. The Great Divorce makes it out so that everyone gets a chance after death, but if they choose to stay in Hell it's one of their own making instead of horrible sentence to torture. Basically the ones who don't want to go meet God are left to their own selfishness. There's also the belief that nonbelievers just fade out of existence instead of suffering for eternity. If it's like either one of those, is that more fair?
And He has a flock of eternal worshippers, servants, guards-the angels. I think He wanted us for a more personal relationship with Him, which took more sacrifice on both His and our part.
It's not a blind guess. Some come to it by studying the Bible, some come to it by personal revelation, but hardly anyone just guesses and sticks with Christianity.
I've yet to see an exceptional explanation from another religion, and those "ologies" usually carry some flaw (like the theory in psychology that your emotions come from your facial expressions XD). And desperate? There's been athiests who are completely turned around by a sudden revelation, Muslims deep in the midst of the Middle East who read the Bible, or talk to a friend or even just hear a voice, and know that the Christian God is the true one. There was Saul who was killed Christians until He was blinded, and turned around and wrote part of the NT! There have been people who have rotted in prison because they believed in Jesus, and who have gone through hell on earth, and some of them haven't read through the whole Bible, but have done so for a personal revelation.
I'll read through JesusFreaks and find you a case, but I think Saul, who killed Christians, is a good one. And Islam was made so Muhammed could make a profit, I think. It has one prophet who has nothing to back him up except some false miracles.
Then no Christians would ever question Him. I still think He's letting us go through this so that some of us come out and have a more personal relationship with Him. I also think it must be worth it or He never would have let it happen.
Faith is the evidence of things not yet seen. I've also had a revelation of Him, and I know others who have to, so I hardly have a reason not to have faith, except for a few things that I don't really expect to find an answer to until death.
How can I look at them otherwise? How can I look at them at all when the majority aren't even brought up?
Sorry. sweatdrop But I'm not going to stop looking at things from a Christian lens. I don't know how to, and I don't really want to. We don't have to debate if you don't want to, but I'm not going to stop coming from this point of view. I am extremely stubborn, and somewhat biased and close-minded (it was driving me crazy when I tried not to be), and I don't really intend to change until God or my environment makes me. I'm also a high-functioning autistic which makes it hard to try to come from another point of view, especially when God's the one my life revolves around. Other ideas like politics I can budge on, but not anything involving God, unless I'm confronted with overwhelming evidence or it's something minor.
And what religions have I come down on? Islam yes, because it was based on a single man who made plenty of money off it, but what else?
All true for me too. 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:32 am
brainnsoup zabazor A person can not EVER become a GOD!!! I believe a god must come from the higher forces. This does not mean men are not derived from this force, but there is a different concentration. Gods may be capable of taking on flesh, but it doesn't happen often, and I myself do not beleive in such things. The belief in a god makes the god real. This is what gives pagans bad names. This idea of "lightning from fingertips" magic is preposterous. Now lets look at the source of this information. A TV show, but not any TV show, a cartoon. I apologize for my aggression, but do you really wish for us to take this seriously? Not all you see on TV is accurate. But aside, it is an interesting question, but a question I'm sure you knew the answer to prior. To answer the real question...what makes a god. Mericals are cheap tricks and prayer is a bonus. The only true thing required to make a god is the belief that it is a god. That's how cults are formed thinking men are gods, and if it is real for someone, it is just as real as any god.
I do not take Light's claim seriously, but what makes a god a god is so ambiguous and poorly-defined, I thought it would be fun to get some ideas. I did not know the answer as there is no one answer. I don't worship any god, so it is not an issue for me. But it's important to me to get a variety of viewpoints. If you read the first couple of pages, you'll see how opinions obviously differ.
I am also not asking what god you believe in but what the distinction is between god and mortal.
That being said, are you saying that only the belief in a god is real?
If there really was a god that consciously created us and watches over us, is it not more real than just an idea?I apologize for the previous venting. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and I commend that. And yes, I am saying the belief in a god is what makes a god real. Religion is nothing more than a belief system. That being said, all the gods being apart of that belief system only exist based on belief. Anyone can create a god, as long as they themselves believe it. Also, you say there is no answer to this question you pose about how gods come to be, but there are many answers. Again, being that this is about religion, you will have a hundred answers, all being correct, because all are believed.
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:29 am
Technically why would a god need worshippers??? wouldn't they be of the same godlike status whether or not people believe in them??.... I am the way I am regardless of the people in China's belief of me.... or am I a figment of my own imagination since not everyone in the world believes in me?? A long time ago people didn't know about atoms and cells, does that mean they didn't exist merely because they hadn't been discovered yet?? do things just materialize after they are discovered???
On the other hand believing in something doesn't make it real... I beleive I will one day grow and extra toe and it will give me the power to fly... does that mean that will actually happen???
And another point how do we know that EVERYONE is wrong and we aren't just the ravngs of a lunatic or the characters in a story??? How do you know you are even real???
I think a comedian or someone else that was on tv hit the nail on the head... how do we know that one of the alleged insane people are correct and some random guy stands on the busiest intersection with a megaphone is right and no one believes him???
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:04 pm
Itachi_Hare Technically why would a god need worshippers??? wouldn't they be of the same godlike status whether or not people believe in them??.... I am the way I am regardless of the people in China's belief of me.... or am I a figment of my own imagination since not everyone in the world believes in me?? A long time ago people didn't know about atoms and cells, does that mean they didn't exist merely because they hadn't been discovered yet?? do things just materialize after they are discovered??? On the other hand believing in something doesn't make it real... I beleive I will one day grow and extra toe and it will give me the power to fly... does that mean that will actually happen??? And another point how do we know that EVERYONE is wrong and we aren't just the ravngs of a lunatic or the characters in a story??? How do you know you are even real??? I think a comedian or someone else that was on tv hit the nail on the head... how do we know that one of the alleged insane people are correct and some random guy stands on the busiest intersection with a megaphone is right and no one believes him???
There is a neat little paradox set up about fairies. You can only see them if you truly believe. If you doubt their existence for a second because you don't see them, you've just proven that you are not enough of a believer for the fairies to show themselves to you.
I think that a lot of beliefs work like this in some way or another. Just some food for thought...
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:27 pm
brainnsoup Itachi_Hare Technically why would a god need worshippers??? wouldn't they be of the same godlike status whether or not people believe in them??.... I am the way I am regardless of the people in China's belief of me.... or am I a figment of my own imagination since not everyone in the world believes in me?? A long time ago people didn't know about atoms and cells, does that mean they didn't exist merely because they hadn't been discovered yet?? do things just materialize after they are discovered??? On the other hand believing in something doesn't make it real... I beleive I will one day grow and extra toe and it will give me the power to fly... does that mean that will actually happen??? And another point how do we know that EVERYONE is wrong and we aren't just the ravngs of a lunatic or the characters in a story??? How do you know you are even real??? I think a comedian or someone else that was on tv hit the nail on the head... how do we know that one of the alleged insane people are correct and some random guy stands on the busiest intersection with a megaphone is right and no one believes him???
There is a neat little paradox set up about fairies. You can only see them if you truly believe. If you doubt their existence for a second because you don't see them, you've just proven that you are not enough of a believer for the fairies to show themselves to you.
I think that a lot of beliefs work like this in some way or another. Just some food for thought... I think I have heard of that too.. I think my point was more aimed at god-figures rather than all mythologial creatures though, gods are normally supposed to be very powerful and are know for punishing those who do wrong in their eyes.... if a god is all powerful or immortal that shouldn't depend on whether people believe, though for other creatures that is feasible... on the other hand if I knew someone didn't believe in me I would either make sure they never found out out of anger or shock them by forcing them to notice me...
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:01 am
brainnsoup Itachi_Hare Technically why would a god need worshippers??? wouldn't they be of the same godlike status whether or not people believe in them??.... I am the way I am regardless of the people in China's belief of me.... or am I a figment of my own imagination since not everyone in the world believes in me?? A long time ago people didn't know about atoms and cells, does that mean they didn't exist merely because they hadn't been discovered yet?? do things just materialize after they are discovered??? On the other hand believing in something doesn't make it real... I beleive I will one day grow and extra toe and it will give me the power to fly... does that mean that will actually happen??? And another point how do we know that EVERYONE is wrong and we aren't just the ravngs of a lunatic or the characters in a story??? How do you know you are even real??? I think a comedian or someone else that was on tv hit the nail on the head... how do we know that one of the alleged insane people are correct and some random guy stands on the busiest intersection with a megaphone is right and no one believes him???
There is a neat little paradox set up about fairies. You can only see them if you truly believe. If you doubt their existence for a second because you don't see them, you've just proven that you are not enough of a believer for the fairies to show themselves to you.
I think that a lot of beliefs work like this in some way or another. Just some food for thought...It's funny you brought this up. There is an anime called Lein (or some spelling thereof) that addresses the issue of a god in the exact same manner. Come to think of it the series really deals with this exact issue. In terms of if anyone can become a god: yes and no. Yes because there are people who have been deified (and not just because they were kings or claimed divine right), but only because they were so extraordinary in their time. What I feel makes a god will require more thought. Like I've mentioned there are instances where mortals have become gods. So if a mortal can become a god where is the line? Moreover there are myths where gods die. There are many more myths where gods are depicted engaging in very human-like activities. The most definite things I can establish are belief they are a god and power deemed appropriate for a god.
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:16 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx Here's the thing though-I don't want to change my mind. The minute I decide there's no God and life has no purpose, is the minute I look up the least painful way to die and do just that. I'd leave a note for my mom and little sister, but there's nothing really except knowing there's a God and my life has a purpose that keeps me tied to this earth. This site has a a lot of links that show how it's Noah's Ark could work: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/ark_feasible.htmlThere's also different theories like the area where Noah lived was flooded, but not the rest of the planet. I think the story's plausible though. Some things that God did back then were connected with science, but just because man can explain something doesn't mean it's any less miraculous. And there are still miracles, but you have to realize the major ones did tend to be anywhere from years to centuries apart. We could be in a dry spot (though a lot of Christians are expecting the end of the world. That'll be big ) The minor ones people tend to rationalize away. I think we've been over this before, but let's see....They're both up to interpretation, but if one sent His Son to die for us, and the other seems to decieve with the intention of harming us, who do you think's on our side? Especially when the former is greaer and could've killed all of mankind off in a heart beat, but instead works for our benefit. Warned, and there had to be choice or it would've been enslavement. If we didn't hve choice, it's likely we'd be like animals. He does-we have a conscience and the Holy Spirit, the ability to pray, and the majority of the world is gaining access to Bibles. And there's always the believer who pops out of nowhere because they have a revelation of Jesus. No, because He loves us. That's why the most sincere belivers join. Then God wouldn't make them laws. He's not punishing people-it's their choice. Good flows from God, and the abscence of Him is why you get a place like Hell. When people choose not to be with Him, they end up going where He's not, so naturally it's an extraordinarily uncomfortable and painful place. Then why are there books about Muslims and others who have, out of nowhere, had a revelation of Jesus? Because a god I'd be comfortable with is one who'd provide me with anything I want, not have any demands on me, wouldn't do anything bad to non-believers, wouldn't care whether people were gay, was elemental, had a great love of animals, who I didn't owe anything to. Because He didn't just want a bunch of animals. And I don't, because I blame mankind and satan, not God, and because I happen to think He can do whatever He likes with His creation. Faith. Faith, and because those other religions have so many holes it's not funny. Plus I don't know of any evil gods in other religions, and there's too many coincideces. How do you know my seein five butterflies the summer I prayed for them when previously I might have seen one isn't proof of Him? There's no way to prove which one of us is 100% correct. That's fine. You do know that since so much of this depends on interpretation I'm proably never gonna prove anything to you, and vice verse, right?
I've struggled with the ethics of debating theism before for that exact reason. This is a thread I made in the Gaian Atheists United guild about that exact topic. I'm pretty sure the guild is public, so you should be able to read it. It's why I bring my debates here instead of in real life.
I'm not going to go into detail on the things wrong with the site, but few of their arguments seemed very solid and in general they seem to require a lot of faith. If you want detailed responses, you can always make a separate thread on the possibility of Noah's Ark. A much more plausible answer for why the story doesn't make sense with what we now know of the world is that the people piecing together the details of the story had a limited understanding of how the world works. This is why most Christians I know recognize the story as little more than a teaching device.
Why would God be so eager to make himself known then though and be so silent now? It might make more sense if He did not want us to know/worship Him, but He clearly expects both of those things from us.
It is not a bad thing that people rationalize away minor miracles because there usually is a rational explanation. And if there is a rational explanation for a miracle, whether it was indeed caused by God or not, it is unreasonable to assume that it was.
I'm going to try to sum up a lot of the ideas that I've posted in a clear, organized way.
Let's assume for a moment that there is a God who has existed forever and always will exist. This God created everything that has ever existed. Factor in that this God is all-knowing. It knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. So this God has created everything and knows the exact consequence for everything He creates and all of the infinite consequences of those consequences. If that is true, that everything in existence, good or bad, is His fault. Our mistakes our His mistakes, because He created us knowing that we would make them. Anything that Satan does, He has done, because He created him.
That is why I believe that anything bad that has happened in the world is His fault, if He did exits.
With that reasoning, I say that He should not have had to have His son die because He could have prevented needing a savior.
And He clearly wants us to be slaves. He obviously wants to be known and worshiped because any person that does not know and worship Him is sentenced to a life of unimaginable suffering and torture in Hell. I know we've debated this, so I'll organize my exact thoughts on this too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument I keep getting against the fact that God does this out of spite is that humans with sin can not exist in Heaven because of there sin. The only way to be saved by sin is through Him. The only alternative to Heaven to those with any sin (meaning that regardless of the lives they have led, they are sinful because they did not choose Him), is Hell. For eternity. And this is all despite the fact that He loves each and every one of us more than we can ever imagine and wants us to be saved. With my reasoning before, I believe that a truly perfect God could make it so that we would not need saving. But regardless, at no point does He try to tweak His paradise so that we, the sinful, may live in it. No where does He attempt to create another afterlife for the sinful, depending on personal interpretation. These all seem to be little more than mistakes by God. But God doesn't make mistakes.
No one would choose to go to Hell. Even the teenage angst-theists who claim they would prefer Hell to living with an unjust God would almost certainly praise Him if it meant escaping Hell. People are unknowingly sentencing themselves to Hell because they are flawed which is ultimately God's fault. This also means that anybody who was not exposed to Christianity or did not blindly guess that Christianity was the right religion suffer as well because they were not saved from sin, right?
I can reach no other conclusion that God is either spiteful or fallible if Hell is true.
But there's no reason to guess that Christianity is the true religion and that all of the others are false. Other religions can explain everything you can. Many of them provide more reasonable explanations and/or require less blind faith. So can psychology, biology, and many other "ologies". And with no divine intervention from God, except by those who desperately wish to see it, there's no reason to assume that Christianity is the true religion.
Isn't Jesus a prophet in Islam? Also, I've yet to hear of any case of someone with no exposure to Christianity coming to the revelation that they should follow Christianity, let alone a believable one.
For the reasons above, I believe that He very much does want mindless slaves. Also, anything that mankind, Satan, or anything else in existence does is ultimately His fault. If He treats His creations with cruelty or neglect, doesn't that make Him cruel or neglectful?
Faith may be fine for you, but faith is not reason. In my mind, it is like saying that there is no reason to believe that your god is not created by man other than that you'd really like it not to be true.
I feel that you are viewing all other religions through Christian goggles.
Christianity is full of holes and paradoxes that you choose not to see or find complicated rationalizations for. I know I'm being a little condescending, but it's not fair to make such incredible excuses for your own religion and scrutinize others based on Christianity's expectations.
I know, but putting my ideas into words like this helps me solidify and organize them. It makes my own beliefs stronger and more detailed. Debating like this improves my skills in persuading. Also, I always like having my own perception of reality questioned.< <)>>Dang, now I want to post there. I mean, you guys are talking about FMA, and as much I think he's wrong, I heart Ed. whee
I may do that, but tonight I'm feeling too lazy. XD
You mean why are the huge miracles few and far between? I have no idea. I'll ask when I get to Heaven, but I think it's because He wants us to seek Him and have faith instead of constantly having to hold our hands and reinforce the fact He's there. I think He wants us to come to Him because it's personal and He loves us, rathr then because everyone knows huge things have been happening and it's because of Him (which with the internet and all those cameras, if a few huge miracles happened, everyone would know who it probably was).
Not if you think He created the earth.
I don't know why, but I find I can't blame Him. I've met Him, and I don't see any fault in Him except for the fact He loves, and wants love, and that's hardly a fault. I don't think it's His fault Lucifer turned, and I do think that when we ate the fruit it was out of our own choice, and that by giving us choice He let Himself be blinded as to what we were going to do. And the cost for Him was so high. Hanging on the cross? I can't see that the Holy Spirit and the Father didn't feel that too, and it's unbelievably painful. There'a stake in your wrists and ankles, and when you slump you can't breath, so you have to push aginst the stake in your ankles. I think a doctor even said the stakes hit a nerve in your wrist, which is also extraordinarily painful. So He let all the horror happen, even though it meant Him dying this way, and the watching those He loves suffer. There's gotta be a good reason.
I've also said before I think it's more like the Great Divorce, or that what Tsukiyo believes is plausible. The Great Divorce makes it out so that everyone gets a chance after death, but if they choose to stay in Hell it's one of their own making instead of horrible sentence to torture. Basically the ones who don't want to go meet God are left to their own selfishness. There's also the belief that nonbelievers just fade out of existence instead of suffering for eternity. If it's like either one of those, is that more fair?
And He has a flock of eternal worshippers, servants, guards-the angels. I think He wanted us for a more personal relationship with Him, which took more sacrifice on both His and our part.
It's not a blind guess. Some come to it by studying the Bible, some come to it by personal revelation, but hardly anyone just guesses and sticks with Christianity.
I've yet to see an exceptional explanation from another religion, and those "ologies" usually carry some flaw (like the theory in psychology that your emotions come from your facial expressions XD). And desperate? There's been athiests who are completely turned around by a sudden revelation, Muslims deep in the midst of the Middle East who read the Bible, or talk to a friend or even just hear a voice, and know that the Christian God is the true one. There was Saul who was killed Christians until He was blinded, and turned around and wrote part of the NT! There have been people who have rotted in prison because they believed in Jesus, and who have gone through hell on earth, and some of them haven't read through the whole Bible, but have done so for a personal revelation.
I'll read through JesusFreaks and find you a case, but I think Saul, who killed Christians, is a good one. And Islam was made so Muhammed could make a profit, I think. It has one prophet who has nothing to back him up except some false miracles.
Then no Christians would ever question Him. I still think He's letting us go through this so that some of us come out and have a more personal relationship with Him. I also think it must be worth it or He never would have let it happen.
Faith is the evidence of things not yet seen. I've also had a revelation of Him, and I know others who have to, so I hardly have a reason not to have faith, except for a few things that I don't really expect to find an answer to until death.
How can I look at them otherwise? How can I look at them at all when the majority aren't even brought up?
Sorry. sweatdrop But I'm not going to stop looking at things from a Christian lens. I don't know how to, and I don't really want to. We don't have to debate if you don't want to, but I'm not going to stop coming from this point of view. I am extremely stubborn, and somewhat biased and close-minded (it was driving me crazy when I tried not to be), and I don't really intend to change until God or my environment makes me. I'm also a high-functioning autistic which makes it hard to try to come from another point of view, especially when God's the one my life revolves around. Other ideas like politics I can budge on, but not anything involving God, unless I'm confronted with overwhelming evidence or it's something minor.
And what religions have I come down on? Islam yes, because it was based on a single man who made plenty of money off it, but what else?
All true for me too. 3nodding
Why is it so wrong to want proof though? Faith is no reason to believe anything.
Without any proof, there is no reason to praise him because there is no reason to assume that He exists. I mean, perhaps there are people preaching in the streets that He is real, but with no more plausibility than anybody else pushing their higher power, there's no logical reason to believe that one guy.
It seems to me He either had the knowledge to see those things coming before they happened, the power to easily stop them, or both. If He didn't then He is not all-powerful.
I'm confused, why would somebody choose Hell either way? Can you explain the concept in greater detail? I think the idea of somebody forced to any afterlife for eternity based on one moment, let alone a lifetime, is silly. I mean, we grow and change so much on out comparatively infinitely short life on earth. Why would that moment determine our eternity?
Actually, that is better. I think an eternity of anything- even paradise would get boring. I think I'd prefer not existing to either. If I could choose an afterlife for myself though, I think it would be reincarnation. It would be nice never facing the end of my existence, but I wouldn't have to knowingly sit through an eternity. But that's all hypothetical...
You don't see plausible explanations from other religions because you choose not to see them. And of course science is flawed. But that's the brilliant thing. It's about understanding your mistakes and learning from them. Psychology is a very divided field. For example, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder), many credible psychologists will tell you that it is real and serious and needs to be studied further. Other psychologists, my professor from last semester being one of them, will tell you that it doesn't exist and is impossible. But if you really study psychology, sociology, all that fun stuff, it offers amazing insight into human nature, including why we look to a higher power in the first place...
I don't believe that people come to Christianity by a clear revelation. People only interpret it that way. I mean, if we truly are supposed to worship the Christian god, aren't there almost entire nations of people who could use a revelation? I also find that in most cases atheists who turn to Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, are easily swayed and unable to think for themselves. I've seen a few stories of people turning from their god under peer pressure from atheist friends and later going back to that religion with how atheism caused them great pain and anguish. Well, that's pathetic. Peer pressure is no reason to switch to atheism. Or to switch back. It tends to be the same with Satanists, Pagans, etc coming back to Christianity and telling tall tales of virgin sacrifices and drinking human blood.
Also, I'm sure many religions have a similar number of people who found it in the same way.
I think I would prefer death to being forced to worship a deity too though. I mean, I wouldn't mind if a friend asked me to go to their place of worship with them, or to pray with them. I think I would be honored. Or if I chose to do so for the experience. But to be forced to worship any god... I think death is better than spiritual slavery, whatever your religion.
You can't really use the Bible to prove Christianity. And if you can say that about Muhammad, how can you not say that about Jesus? That He wasn't just a man with some phony miracles?
So He lets countless people suffer to keep a couple in line? Shouldn't a good Christian be devoted to Him regardless?
Being biased is fine for your own belief. I like the challenge of questioning everything about the world around me, but that's just me. But faith and bias don't work in a debate because they're not logical. It doesn't mean that you can't have a point of view. But if you want to debate it, you can't provide a biased argument. Aargh, this is hard to explain. XD It's like, if you're trying to prove something from a Christian point of view, and you provide a source that provides reasoning supporting your point that anybody, regardless of religion, could come to by following their logic, that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to cite the Bible because you already need to be a believer to believe what the Bible says. Do you see what I'm saying?
I mean, if you intentionally blind yourself to any reasoning but your own, then you miss out on a lot.
If you're unwilling to even think that God might not exist, at least how you believe Him to, what's the point of even debating it?
By saying that all other religions have holes in them, that they are nothing more than the result of Satan. I know it's hard for you to understand, but people take these other religions just as seriously as you do. They are just as sure as you are.
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:49 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx Here's the thing though-I don't want to change my mind. The minute I decide there's no God and life has no purpose, is the minute I look up the least painful way to die and do just that. I'd leave a note for my mom and little sister, but there's nothing really except knowing there's a God and my life has a purpose that keeps me tied to this earth. This site has a a lot of links that show how it's Noah's Ark could work: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/ark_feasible.htmlThere's also different theories like the area where Noah lived was flooded, but not the rest of the planet. I think the story's plausible though. Some things that God did back then were connected with science, but just because man can explain something doesn't mean it's any less miraculous. And there are still miracles, but you have to realize the major ones did tend to be anywhere from years to centuries apart. We could be in a dry spot (though a lot of Christians are expecting the end of the world. That'll be big ) The minor ones people tend to rationalize away. I think we've been over this before, but let's see....They're both up to interpretation, but if one sent His Son to die for us, and the other seems to decieve with the intention of harming us, who do you think's on our side? Especially when the former is greaer and could've killed all of mankind off in a heart beat, but instead works for our benefit. Warned, and there had to be choice or it would've been enslavement. If we didn't hve choice, it's likely we'd be like animals. He does-we have a conscience and the Holy Spirit, the ability to pray, and the majority of the world is gaining access to Bibles. And there's always the believer who pops out of nowhere because they have a revelation of Jesus. No, because He loves us. That's why the most sincere belivers join. Then God wouldn't make them laws. He's not punishing people-it's their choice. Good flows from God, and the abscence of Him is why you get a place like Hell. When people choose not to be with Him, they end up going where He's not, so naturally it's an extraordinarily uncomfortable and painful place. Then why are there books about Muslims and others who have, out of nowhere, had a revelation of Jesus? Because a god I'd be comfortable with is one who'd provide me with anything I want, not have any demands on me, wouldn't do anything bad to non-believers, wouldn't care whether people were gay, was elemental, had a great love of animals, who I didn't owe anything to. Because He didn't just want a bunch of animals. And I don't, because I blame mankind and satan, not God, and because I happen to think He can do whatever He likes with His creation. Faith. Faith, and because those other religions have so many holes it's not funny. Plus I don't know of any evil gods in other religions, and there's too many coincideces. How do you know my seein five butterflies the summer I prayed for them when previously I might have seen one isn't proof of Him? There's no way to prove which one of us is 100% correct. That's fine. You do know that since so much of this depends on interpretation I'm proably never gonna prove anything to you, and vice verse, right?
I've struggled with the ethics of debating theism before for that exact reason. This is a thread I made in the Gaian Atheists United guild about that exact topic. I'm pretty sure the guild is public, so you should be able to read it. It's why I bring my debates here instead of in real life.
I'm not going to go into detail on the things wrong with the site, but few of their arguments seemed very solid and in general they seem to require a lot of faith. If you want detailed responses, you can always make a separate thread on the possibility of Noah's Ark. A much more plausible answer for why the story doesn't make sense with what we now know of the world is that the people piecing together the details of the story had a limited understanding of how the world works. This is why most Christians I know recognize the story as little more than a teaching device.
Why would God be so eager to make himself known then though and be so silent now? It might make more sense if He did not want us to know/worship Him, but He clearly expects both of those things from us.
It is not a bad thing that people rationalize away minor miracles because there usually is a rational explanation. And if there is a rational explanation for a miracle, whether it was indeed caused by God or not, it is unreasonable to assume that it was.
I'm going to try to sum up a lot of the ideas that I've posted in a clear, organized way.
Let's assume for a moment that there is a God who has existed forever and always will exist. This God created everything that has ever existed. Factor in that this God is all-knowing. It knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. So this God has created everything and knows the exact consequence for everything He creates and all of the infinite consequences of those consequences. If that is true, that everything in existence, good or bad, is His fault. Our mistakes our His mistakes, because He created us knowing that we would make them. Anything that Satan does, He has done, because He created him.
That is why I believe that anything bad that has happened in the world is His fault, if He did exits.
With that reasoning, I say that He should not have had to have His son die because He could have prevented needing a savior.
And He clearly wants us to be slaves. He obviously wants to be known and worshiped because any person that does not know and worship Him is sentenced to a life of unimaginable suffering and torture in Hell. I know we've debated this, so I'll organize my exact thoughts on this too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument I keep getting against the fact that God does this out of spite is that humans with sin can not exist in Heaven because of there sin. The only way to be saved by sin is through Him. The only alternative to Heaven to those with any sin (meaning that regardless of the lives they have led, they are sinful because they did not choose Him), is Hell. For eternity. And this is all despite the fact that He loves each and every one of us more than we can ever imagine and wants us to be saved. With my reasoning before, I believe that a truly perfect God could make it so that we would not need saving. But regardless, at no point does He try to tweak His paradise so that we, the sinful, may live in it. No where does He attempt to create another afterlife for the sinful, depending on personal interpretation. These all seem to be little more than mistakes by God. But God doesn't make mistakes.
No one would choose to go to Hell. Even the teenage angst-theists who claim they would prefer Hell to living with an unjust God would almost certainly praise Him if it meant escaping Hell. People are unknowingly sentencing themselves to Hell because they are flawed which is ultimately God's fault. This also means that anybody who was not exposed to Christianity or did not blindly guess that Christianity was the right religion suffer as well because they were not saved from sin, right?
I can reach no other conclusion that God is either spiteful or fallible if Hell is true.
But there's no reason to guess that Christianity is the true religion and that all of the others are false. Other religions can explain everything you can. Many of them provide more reasonable explanations and/or require less blind faith. So can psychology, biology, and many other "ologies". And with no divine intervention from God, except by those who desperately wish to see it, there's no reason to assume that Christianity is the true religion.
Isn't Jesus a prophet in Islam? Also, I've yet to hear of any case of someone with no exposure to Christianity coming to the revelation that they should follow Christianity, let alone a believable one.
For the reasons above, I believe that He very much does want mindless slaves. Also, anything that mankind, Satan, or anything else in existence does is ultimately His fault. If He treats His creations with cruelty or neglect, doesn't that make Him cruel or neglectful?
Faith may be fine for you, but faith is not reason. In my mind, it is like saying that there is no reason to believe that your god is not created by man other than that you'd really like it not to be true.
I feel that you are viewing all other religions through Christian goggles.
Christianity is full of holes and paradoxes that you choose not to see or find complicated rationalizations for. I know I'm being a little condescending, but it's not fair to make such incredible excuses for your own religion and scrutinize others based on Christianity's expectations.
I know, but putting my ideas into words like this helps me solidify and organize them. It makes my own beliefs stronger and more detailed. Debating like this improves my skills in persuading. Also, I always like having my own perception of reality questioned.< <)>>Dang, now I want to post there. I mean, you guys are talking about FMA, and as much I think he's wrong, I heart Ed. whee
I may do that, but tonight I'm feeling too lazy. XD
You mean why are the huge miracles few and far between? I have no idea. I'll ask when I get to Heaven, but I think it's because He wants us to seek Him and have faith instead of constantly having to hold our hands and reinforce the fact He's there. I think He wants us to come to Him because it's personal and He loves us, rathr then because everyone knows huge things have been happening and it's because of Him (which with the internet and all those cameras, if a few huge miracles happened, everyone would know who it probably was).
Not if you think He created the earth.
I don't know why, but I find I can't blame Him. I've met Him, and I don't see any fault in Him except for the fact He loves, and wants love, and that's hardly a fault. I don't think it's His fault Lucifer turned, and I do think that when we ate the fruit it was out of our own choice, and that by giving us choice He let Himself be blinded as to what we were going to do. And the cost for Him was so high. Hanging on the cross? I can't see that the Holy Spirit and the Father didn't feel that too, and it's unbelievably painful. There'a stake in your wrists and ankles, and when you slump you can't breath, so you have to push aginst the stake in your ankles. I think a doctor even said the stakes hit a nerve in your wrist, which is also extraordinarily painful. So He let all the horror happen, even though it meant Him dying this way, and the watching those He loves suffer. There's gotta be a good reason.
I've also said before I think it's more like the Great Divorce, or that what Tsukiyo believes is plausible. The Great Divorce makes it out so that everyone gets a chance after death, but if they choose to stay in Hell it's one of their own making instead of horrible sentence to torture. Basically the ones who don't want to go meet God are left to their own selfishness. There's also the belief that nonbelievers just fade out of existence instead of suffering for eternity. If it's like either one of those, is that more fair?
And He has a flock of eternal worshippers, servants, guards-the angels. I think He wanted us for a more personal relationship with Him, which took more sacrifice on both His and our part.
It's not a blind guess. Some come to it by studying the Bible, some come to it by personal revelation, but hardly anyone just guesses and sticks with Christianity.
I've yet to see an exceptional explanation from another religion, and those "ologies" usually carry some flaw (like the theory in psychology that your emotions come from your facial expressions XD). And desperate? There's been athiests who are completely turned around by a sudden revelation, Muslims deep in the midst of the Middle East who read the Bible, or talk to a friend or even just hear a voice, and know that the Christian God is the true one. There was Saul who was killed Christians until He was blinded, and turned around and wrote part of the NT! There have been people who have rotted in prison because they believed in Jesus, and who have gone through hell on earth, and some of them haven't read through the whole Bible, but have done so for a personal revelation.
I'll read through JesusFreaks and find you a case, but I think Saul, who killed Christians, is a good one. And Islam was made so Muhammed could make a profit, I think. It has one prophet who has nothing to back him up except some false miracles.
Then no Christians would ever question Him. I still think He's letting us go through this so that some of us come out and have a more personal relationship with Him. I also think it must be worth it or He never would have let it happen.
Faith is the evidence of things not yet seen. I've also had a revelation of Him, and I know others who have to, so I hardly have a reason not to have faith, except for a few things that I don't really expect to find an answer to until death.
How can I look at them otherwise? How can I look at them at all when the majority aren't even brought up?
Sorry. sweatdrop But I'm not going to stop looking at things from a Christian lens. I don't know how to, and I don't really want to. We don't have to debate if you don't want to, but I'm not going to stop coming from this point of view. I am extremely stubborn, and somewhat biased and close-minded (it was driving me crazy when I tried not to be), and I don't really intend to change until God or my environment makes me. I'm also a high-functioning autistic which makes it hard to try to come from another point of view, especially when God's the one my life revolves around. Other ideas like politics I can budge on, but not anything involving God, unless I'm confronted with overwhelming evidence or it's something minor.
And what religions have I come down on? Islam yes, because it was based on a single man who made plenty of money off it, but what else?
All true for me too. 3nodding
Why is it so wrong to want proof though? Faith is no reason to believe anything.
Without any proof, there is no reason to praise him because there is no reason to assume that He exists. I mean, perhaps there are people preaching in the streets that He is real, but with no more plausibility than anybody else pushing their higher power, there's no logical reason to believe that one guy.
It seems to me He either had the knowledge to see those things coming before they happened, the power to easily stop them, or both. If He didn't then He is not all-powerful.
I'm confused, why would somebody choose Hell either way? Can you explain the concept in greater detail? I think the idea of somebody forced to any afterlife for eternity based on one moment, let alone a lifetime, is silly. I mean, we grow and change so much on out comparatively infinitely short life on earth. Why would that moment determine our eternity?
Actually, that is better. I think an eternity of anything- even paradise would get boring. I think I'd prefer not existing to either. If I could choose an afterlife for myself though, I think it would be reincarnation. It would be nice never facing the end of my existence, but I wouldn't have to knowingly sit through an eternity. But that's all hypothetical...
You don't see plausible explanations from other religions because you choose not to see them. And of course science is flawed. But that's the brilliant thing. It's about understanding your mistakes and learning from them. Psychology is a very divided field. For example, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder), many credible psychologists will tell you that it is real and serious and needs to be studied further. Other psychologists, my professor from last semester being one of them, will tell you that it doesn't exist and is impossible. But if you really study psychology, sociology, all that fun stuff, it offers amazing insight into human nature, including why we look to a higher power in the first place...
I don't believe that people come to Christianity by a clear revelation. People only interpret it that way. I mean, if we truly are supposed to worship the Christian god, aren't there almost entire nations of people who could use a revelation? I also find that in most cases atheists who turn to Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, are easily swayed and unable to think for themselves. I've seen a few stories of people turning from their god under peer pressure from atheist friends and later going back to that religion with how atheism caused them great pain and anguish. Well, that's pathetic. Peer pressure is no reason to switch to atheism. Or to switch back. It tends to be the same with Satanists, Pagans, etc coming back to Christianity and telling tall tales of virgin sacrifices and drinking human blood.
Also, I'm sure many religions have a similar number of people who found it in the same way.
I think I would prefer death to being forced to worship a deity too though. I mean, I wouldn't mind if a friend asked me to go to their place of worship with them, or to pray with them. I think I would be honored. Or if I chose to do so for the experience. But to be forced to worship any god... I think death is better than spiritual slavery, whatever your religion.
You can't really use the Bible to prove Christianity. And if you can say that about Muhammad, how can you not say that about Jesus? That He wasn't just a man with some phony miracles?
So He lets countless people suffer to keep a couple in line? Shouldn't a good Christian be devoted to Him regardless?
Being biased is fine for your own belief. I like the challenge of questioning everything about the world around me, but that's just me. But faith and bias don't work in a debate because they're not logical. It doesn't mean that you can't have a point of view. But if you want to debate it, you can't provide a biased argument. Aargh, this is hard to explain. XD It's like, if you're trying to prove something from a Christian point of view, and you provide a source that provides reasoning supporting your point that anybody, regardless of religion, could come to by following their logic, that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to cite the Bible because you already need to be a believer to believe what the Bible says. Do you see what I'm saying?
I mean, if you intentionally blind yourself to any reasoning but your own, then you miss out on a lot.
If you're unwilling to even think that God might not exist, at least how you believe Him to, what's the point of even debating it?
By saying that all other religions have holes in them, that they are nothing more than the result of Satan. I know it's hard for you to understand, but people take these other religions just as seriously as you do. They are just as sure as you are.It's not wrong. I'd disagree that there's no reason, and I think there's more proof then you think, but it's not wrong. It's not wrong to have faith either though. wink Since when does anything have such a simple answer? Humans don't, andHe's supposed to be like the sun to a candle compared to us, so I'm certain it's more complex then that. What Tsukiyo thiks is more likely to be true, but less clear to me. CS Lewis basically wrote about a bunch of people waiting to get on a bus, and they end up in a world where everything is gloriously beautiful, yet so solid it's painful. The people from the bus are like ghosts comparatively. Now if they stick around, they grow more solid until thy become as the should be, and they travel on to meet Him, but they all still have the option of going back. Where'd they come from? Hell, and they didn't know it! Friends and family from life actually come back from being with Him to try and get them to stay and go forward, and one of the things they keep saying is 'We were wrong about everything. Don't you see?' They also try to explain things to the 'ghosts'. I love it, because if it were that way, people don't have an excuse, and even Christians are put to the test. It's totally fair. I don't see how reincarnation works...I still don't know what would transfer people's souls... AndI tink we're going to have work to do in Heaven, and that the one who made pleasure can make sure we won't be bored. It'll be like the end of the Last Battle, when the children die, but their every moment was better thn the last, and they realized they only loved Narnia because occasionally it looked a bit like Heaven. Well present me with one. You can't very well say that without a good example of a time where I've done so before. I love it, but you gotta admit some of the stuff is kinda kooky. And ever read Identical? It's by the author of Crank and well, let's just say it ha an intresting twist. eek ......I don't think I can say anything to that without saying something insulting, stupid, or rash so just......  (Edit:sorry, couldn't resist. xd ) Maybe, but that's why God sends us out to talk to them. And do you mind if I ask, how do you know? Have you met the majority? Not to be critical, because I'm sure I've said much the same, but unless you meet converts from different regions, in different situations, and a great deal of them, that's not really fair. I don't want anyone forced to worship either. That's just stupid and a great way to turn someone off. And God's not forcing anyone to do so either, though we do have the desire built in to us, or else most people wouldn't find things to idolize. We get a choice, because even when someone tells you to do something at gun point, you still have one, and with Him it's not even that clear cut. Other people have come to it that way. A Muslim who ent around slaughtering Christians read the Bible to find verses to show his students how wrong it was. Instead he converted. How do you explain that? Because the Messiah has tons of prophecies backing His coming, He filled over 300 of them (google it [link in case you're feeling lazy: http://bibleprobe.com/300great.htm ]), and I don't thik Muhammed did any miracles. There have been some in his religion, but I don't recall his doing any. He claimed he had a vision and got tons of money. Jesus claimed He was the Messiah, people wanted Him to lead a revolution and take Isreal back, and instead He let Himself be killed (read the passage where Judas betrays Him if you don't believe me). How's it the same? Plus the Bile predicted Isreal's becoming a nation. What were the chances of that? XD What do you mean? And no, Christians still suffer of course. If i was all sunshine and rainbows, then people would become Christians for all the wrong reasons. Why doesn't it make sense to cite the Bible? If there was any other ancient book that could be used in support of it, even if it only had one author, you'd accept. The Bible has multiple authors, and it's still shot down just because it's religious. And what's logic anyway? People use it to describe when something makes sense to them, but that's just them. My faith's based on a personal revelation and a history of knowing people with the same, and it makes more sense to me then some of what you say. I have no doubt there is logic, and some things clearly make sense logically, but few most things aren't that clear cut, and logic can easily be twisted by society or a person's view. And I don't try to be biased, but as an athiest you can be biased too, and it's a heckuva lot easier because that's what society considers 'logical', so you do have more material at your fingetips. You know though, when you feel anything about the subject, you are going to be biased, so if you don't like God, or Hell, that makes you biased against it (though less so then me because your emotions concerning the subject seem to be less strong then mine). Even when you pick a side to argue for, that can make you biased unless you feel absolutely no loyalty towards that side. If you truly want non-biased, then you probably have to talk to an agnostic, or somone who's completely indifferent, but what fun is that? I don't (except for Satanism). I just have some core beliefs that are very hard to budge. Seeing another point of view, trying to get to the point where I can read an argument completely against God and not get upset, knowing thy enemy, loving thy enemy, all the fun little side objects, taling with intelligent people (you know how hard it is to find people around here who'll go deep?), putting a stop to my sheltered Christian mindset (I want a toughened one instead), being contrary, and actually being forced to think a bit about what I believe, even if I don't want to stop believing it. And it's really helping my typing and essay writing skills too. wink So then they should dispute it. Argue! Tell me I'm wrong and why! I don't doubt there's devout people in any religion, but instead of hearing that 'other religions' are this and that, I'd like to hear about the religions themselves. I want examples, because it's down to the subject enough I can actually against it, but if you give me generalization, then that's what I have to work with, and it doesn't really tell me anything. xd >
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:18 pm
zabazor brainnsoup zabazor A person can not EVER become a GOD!!! I believe a god must come from the higher forces. This does not mean men are not derived from this force, but there is a different concentration. Gods may be capable of taking on flesh, but it doesn't happen often, and I myself do not beleive in such things. The belief in a god makes the god real. This is what gives pagans bad names. This idea of "lightning from fingertips" magic is preposterous. Now lets look at the source of this information. A TV show, but not any TV show, a cartoon. I apologize for my aggression, but do you really wish for us to take this seriously? Not all you see on TV is accurate. But aside, it is an interesting question, but a question I'm sure you knew the answer to prior. To answer the real question...what makes a god. Mericals are cheap tricks and prayer is a bonus. The only true thing required to make a god is the belief that it is a god. That's how cults are formed thinking men are gods, and if it is real for someone, it is just as real as any god.
I do not take Light's claim seriously, but what makes a god a god is so ambiguous and poorly-defined, I thought it would be fun to get some ideas. I did not know the answer as there is no one answer. I don't worship any god, so it is not an issue for me. But it's important to me to get a variety of viewpoints. If you read the first couple of pages, you'll see how opinions obviously differ.
I am also not asking what god you believe in but what the distinction is between god and mortal.
That being said, are you saying that only the belief in a god is real?
If there really was a god that consciously created us and watches over us, is it not more real than just an idea?I apologize for the previous venting. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and I commend that. And yes, I am saying the belief in a god is what makes a god real. Religion is nothing more than a belief system. That being said, all the gods being apart of that belief system only exist based on belief. Anyone can create a god, as long as they themselves believe it. Also, you say there is no answer to this question you pose about how gods come to be, but there are many answers. Again, being that this is about religion, you will have a hundred answers, all being correct, because all are believed.
But doesn't that only make the belief in the god real? I can imagine a purple elephant, but it only exists in my mind.
I said that there is no one answer. There are many of different definitions, many of which contradict each other. Many people I know grew up in a mostly Christian society and think that a God must be all-knowing, all-powerful, infallible, and good. But why does a god have to be kind to us? Or incapable of doing wrong? But if we count gods like Aphrodite and Hera who acted very much like humans with magic powers, where do we draw the line? Is it obedience from humans? If I worshiped a hat, could it be a god?
@Itachi_Hare: I think that if gods existed that might apply to them. I think that if a god relies very heavily on prayer it must either be very vain or must get power from believers' faith.
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:43 pm
But if power depends upon belief wouldn't any existing god continually be proving themselves so that more people will believe and also so that they would have more power?? And if a god were to keep doing that wouldn't everyone already believe in them?? does that mean that every religion worshipped in these days is wrong?
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:25 pm
Itachi_Hare But if power depends upon belief wouldn't any existing god continually be proving themselves so that more people will believe and also so that they would have more power?? And if a god were to keep doing that wouldn't everyone already believe in them?? does that mean that every religion worshipped in these days is wrong? God's power doesn't depend on belief, and He doesn't constantly demonstrate His power because He's not looking to intimodate us into following Him, but rather looking for companions in us. He wants to raise us above creation.
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:16 pm
brainnsoup @ AllSevenDeadlySins, Shiori Miko, and Lumanny: If they had existed, would you not consider the gods from Greek, Norse, etc. mythology gods then? They certainly had power over mortals, but they were not all-knowing and some had no powers at all.
@ Zslone2: If a god is cruel, can it not be a god? Srry for the EPICALLY delayed response i wasn't watching this thread intensely. And i said Kind yet knows Discipline. So one being cruel could be a god as long as they dont go around lighting random towns and cities on fire just cause they feel like it. They are allowed to be mean just they need to control their anger.
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