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roku-kun1

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:41 pm


Coda Highland
You may need to dig out your Windows install discs to get the optional components. Unfortunately Microsoft doesn't make this easy anymore.

The ん is just an intensifier. It has no specific meaning.

There was a discussion of なんだと recently... *searches* Ah, here's the link, it's just a couple pages back in this thread. http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=1547207&page=32#209775587



so if i use んじゃ、んだって、んです、んだ、んだろう。。。in a sentence, it's just emphasizing it, right??
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:18 pm


roku-kun1
so if i use んじゃ、んだって、んです、んだ、んだろう。。。in a sentence, it's just emphasizing it, right??


Yes, or softening it, depending on context. You can also use の in place where you would use んだ. I've also heard なの in that position but I'm not sure of the details on when it's acceptable to use it.

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Cirenes

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:49 pm


Quote:
I tend to think of なんか as "somehow", which can have a similar effect in English. ("なんかこわい" for instance I might render as "somehow scary" as in "scary but I can't explain why" which is of course scarier than the things you CAN explain.) The exact usage is a little different but it's enough for me to get the idea.

...I'm fairly certain we're talking about different usages, because the definition I gave is different. ^^; The structures are also different: ___なんか and なんか___.
But what you're saying makes sense. なんか怖い = なんとなく、よく分からないけど怖い (or so it sounds to me, haha)

Quote:
As I was saying, in Japanese saying something more indirectly tends to be stronger; denying the negative is usually stronger than asserting the positive. This is the opposite of English, where you deny the negative to soften the tone of asserting the positive.

I won't agree or disagree with this. I'm no linguist, just a native speaker. ^^; I think Japanese people don't say things directly in general, because the listener understands the implicit meanings. I'm not sure if there's a softening/emphasizing effect, but it's kind of a given that you speak indirectly. ^^;
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:11 pm


Cirenes
Quote:
I tend to think of なんか as "somehow", which can have a similar effect in English. ("なんかこわい" for instance I might render as "somehow scary" as in "scary but I can't explain why" which is of course scarier than the things you CAN explain.) The exact usage is a little different but it's enough for me to get the idea.

...I'm fairly certain we're talking about different usages, because the definition I gave is different. ^^; The structures are also different: ___なんか and なんか___.
But what you're saying makes sense. なんか怖い = なんとなく、よく分からないけど怖い (or so it sounds to me, haha)

Quote:
As I was saying, in Japanese saying something more indirectly tends to be stronger; denying the negative is usually stronger than asserting the positive. This is the opposite of English, where you deny the negative to soften the tone of asserting the positive.

I won't agree or disagree with this. I'm no linguist, just a native speaker. ^^; I think Japanese people don't say things directly in general, because the listener understands the implicit meanings. I'm not sure if there's a softening/emphasizing effect, but it's kind of a given that you speak indirectly. ^^;


Would either of you happen to have sources you can cite for each of your respective examples?

Also one minor question I wanna slip in. I recently learned one the the euphemisms women use to refer to their period in Japan is 来客中. My main question is how are those 3 characters supposed to be read? らいきゃくちゅう? らいきゃくうち? The others involve different part of Japanese grammar. (yes, this is weird to want to know)

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Cirenes

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:28 am


Koiyuki
Would either of you happen to have sources you can cite for each of your respective examples?

Also one minor question I wanna slip in. I recently learned one the the euphemisms women use to refer to their period in Japan is 来客中. My main question is how are those 3 characters supposed to be read? らいきゃくちゅう? らいきゃくうち? The others involve different part of Japanese grammar. (yes, this is weird to want to know)

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1310800873
^ You can find most answers if you just search for it on google, lol. This explanation is really well done, and has the two different meanings なんか can take, though they are similar. What they said is similar to what we have said here, but if you need translation, just ask. ^^

...lmao. I've never heard that one before. Pronunciation should be らいきゃくちゅう. Meaning: 客が来た (the "visitor" has come); 客=座布団 ("visitor" = "cushion" = pad).
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1018567565
rofl (なんだか、変な事を知ってしまった・・・ 笑)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:24 am


Cirenes's link seems to cover it.

I don't have any concrete references of my own; I'm only drawing on three years of college-level Japanese classes, where the final exam was roughly equivalent to the JLPT level 3 (except I came out of the class a little weak on kanji, only around 200-250 compared to the ~300 that the Level 3 needs), and, following that, casual conversation with Japanese-speaking friends.

Where Cirenes and I disagree, listen to her. wink

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Colonel Gabrielle

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:57 am


I have heard that a possible way to say 'if' in Japanese is もし . However, this means something like 'let's say'.
I am asking how to say 'if' when I want to talk about something that is actually possible, and rather likely to happen? For example, 'If I can do it, I will' or 'I'd love it if you could do it for me' and so on smile
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:07 pm


Colonel Gabrielle
I have heard that a possible way to say 'if' in Japanese is もし . However, this means something like 'let's say'.
I am asking how to say 'if' when I want to talk about something that is actually possible, and rather likely to happen? For example, 'If I can do it, I will' or 'I'd love it if you could do it for me' and so on smile


There are several different ways of saying this, depending on exactly what you want to say.

The simplest to explain is the -ba form.

For i-adjectives, you change the -i to -kere or -kereba (the latter is more formal). For example, "if it is red, it is hot" would be 「あかければ、あついです。」

For na-adjectives, you add nara or naraba (likewise, the latter is more formal). "It is quiet, so I will walk" would be 「しずかなら、あるく。」This form is also used in place of the copula, so you can replace だ or です in the same manner -- this means that 「あかいなら、あついです。」is correct as well.

For verbs, you change the -u to -eba. Your "if I can do it, I will" example becomes 「できれば、やる。」(Exceptions: "suru", being an irregular little monster, becomes "sure" or "sureba," and likewise "kuru" is "kure" or "kureba." "iku" follows the regular pattern.)

There is a rarer conjugation ending in ども that is more formal, but I don't know the details of its conjugation.

Your もし I would generally think of as being similar to the English verb "suppose."

Edit: Your second example "I'd love it if you could do it for me" isn't this kind of hypothetical construction. This would be better expressed as a normal conjunction: それをくれて、うれしい might be one way you could say it. It might be translated into English as "If you do that, then I'll be happy" but it's not a hypothetical -- it's more of a "you do that and I'll be happy."

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:48 am


Thank you very much for the answer whee

So, if I want to say 'If there would be something, I...' then it is like なに が あれば, わたし...?
Did I do this right? sweatdrop
An other question I have, what does けど mean in the following sentences?
はいってますけど [as the toilet is occupied] (By the way how can I make it that the っ character becomes smaller? You know, so it would be haittemasukedo? Because right now I am using an online converter, and I can't do it with this sad )
かつらですけど [Katsura is as a name. He is standing in front of the door, and trying to get in, after shouting ごめんください. By the way is it properly used, this gomen kudasai? What is the difference between ください and なさい ? :/ ]
Last question, how am I supposed to use わけ in sentences, like わけわかんねよ ?
Thank you very much. <3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:03 pm


Colonel Gabrielle
Thank you very much for the answer whee

So, if I want to say 'If there would be something, I...' then it is like なに が あれば, わたし...?
Did I do this right? sweatdrop
An other question I have, what does けど mean in the following sentences?
はいってますけど [as the toilet is occupied] (By the way how can I make it that the っ character becomes smaller? You know, so it would be haittemasukedo? Because right now I am using an online converter, and I can't do it with this sad )
かつらですけど [Katsura is as a name. He is standing in front of the door, and trying to get in, after shouting ごめんください. By the way is it properly used, this gomen kudasai? What is the difference between ください and なさい ? :/ ]
Last question, how am I supposed to use わけ in sentences, like わけわかんねよ ?
Thank you very much. <3


The answer for けど is 3 tier, with the first being it's most taught usage as expressing contrasting ideas(IE X, but Y). When using that, or any similar conjunctions, you can use a phrase that contradicts the idea presented in the initial statement, like saying "He likes pie, but doesn't ever get fat". The next is as a general connector for sentences, with this usage tied to more polite speech. The final one, used when the conjunction is by itself in a sentence, is as a softener to a given statement, which also ties to polite ways of speaking to someone.

To your second question, ください is a request verb, used by itself and with the て form of verbs. In that statement, I would surmise it is a humble way to saying sorry. なさい, in comparison, is only used with the stem form of verbs, and serves as a softer way to get someone to do something, often seen with the word ごめん.

To your last question, it's a more casual version of the phrase 訳が分らない, which communicates something is incomprehensible, or doesn't make sense(the literal translation being I don't understand the reason)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:58 pm


Quote:
So, if I want to say 'If there would be something, I...' then it is like なに が あれば, わたし...?

Close; you want "なにか" ("something") instead of "なに" ("what").

Quote:
(By the way how can I make it that the っ character becomes smaller? You know, so it would be haittemasukedo? Because right now I am using an online converter, and I can't do it with this sad )

If it doesn't automatically do it when you write "tte", various IMEs use "ltu" or "xtu" to write that character. (On my Mac, for instance, I type "あっ" as "axtu".)

Quote:
To your second question, ください is a request verb, used by itself and with the て form of verbs. In that statement, I would surmise it is a humble way to saying sorry. なさい, in comparison, is only used with the stem form of verbs, and serves as a softer way to get someone to do something, often seen with the word ごめん.

In this specific case, ごめんください is specifically idiomatic for "may I come in?" as opposed to ごめんなさい's more generic "excuse me."

In general, the difference between ください and なさい is fairly small. くださる means "to give," while なさる means "to do." (They're honorific equivalents of くれる and する, respectively.) The distinction on when to use each is fairly idiomatic in normal polite (that is, not highly honorific) speech.

Honorifics in Japanese is a three-week lesson series in itself, so that's all the farther I'll go here. razz

Quote:
Quote:
Last question, how am I supposed to use わけ in sentences, like わけわかんねよ ?


To your last question, it's a more casual version of the phrase 訳が分らない, which communicates something is incomprehensible, or doesn't make sense(the literal translation being I don't understand the reason)

Just to spell it out a little, わけ (訳) simply means "reason"; contrast this with いみ (意味) which means "meaning". (That said, both わけがわからない and いみがわからない are idiomatically used for "I don't get it." Slightly different nuances, but same basic idea.)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:07 pm


i was wondering what does this mean :後輩をそういう落とすのやめてくんないかな. I read it in a video of an arguement between KAT-TUN and arashi. I know its something about a kohai. Can anyone help?

roku-kun1


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:00 pm


roku-kun1
i was wondering what does this mean :後輩をそういう落とすのやめてくんないかな. I read it in a video of an arguement between KAT-TUN and arashi. I know its something about a kohai. Can anyone help?


Wow, that's... not easy, actually. I was going to break it down for you to help you through it but it's throwing me off a little.

If someone else can check me on this... I'm going to wager a guess at something along the lines of "I wonder if he wouldn't stop calling me 'junior.'"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:02 pm


Coda Highland
roku-kun1
i was wondering what does this mean :後輩をそういう落とすのやめてくんないかな. I read it in a video of an arguement between KAT-TUN and arashi. I know its something about a kohai. Can anyone help?


Wow, that's... not easy, actually. I was going to break it down for you to help you through it but it's throwing me off a little.

If someone else can check me on this... I'm going to wager a guess at something along the lines of "I wonder if he wouldn't stop calling me 'junior.'"

I can give u the link to the video if you want.

roku-kun1


Koiyuki
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:31 pm


roku-kun1
Coda Highland
roku-kun1
i was wondering what does this mean :後輩をそういう落とすのやめてくんないかな. I read it in a video of an arguement between KAT-TUN and arashi. I know its something about a kohai. Can anyone help?


Wow, that's... not easy, actually. I was going to break it down for you to help you through it but it's throwing me off a little.

If someone else can check me on this... I'm going to wager a guess at something along the lines of "I wonder if he wouldn't stop calling me 'junior.'"

I can give u the link to the video if you want.


My best guess is: "I wonder if you could please stop dropping terms like 'Kouhai'?" Given that the statement implies he either uses it too much(like how we'd say 'drop knowledge') or too little(as in literally dropping, or not using it)

Also a bit of grammatical knowledge: そういう is often used to say 'that sort of (x)" or "such (x)" and similar constructs
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