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 Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:31 pm
I see your reasoning, but I don't eat meat for those reasons. I eat meat, not just because I like it, but because I do not wish to be bias. I believe that plants and animals have spirits and emotions and such. I like fruits and vegetables, but I also like the occasional burger and/or steak. There's really nothing much you can say about that unless you can prove to me that plants don't have at least a spirit.
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:36 pm
SoyBoy Joshua
I never said you couldn't eat meat, I said there was no reason for it and I couldn't believe it was even being debated in an environmental guild amongst people that are otherwise knowledgeable to what's going on in the world and what needs to be done to conserve it.
Meat eating hurts your general health and well being, is unprovoked murder, and the biggest thing up for discussion here – damages the environment. There's absolutely no reason for it or way to defend it. And if your vegetarian you yourself are testament to that... I'm sure you made that choice for a reason, mind sharing why? I'll bet 10 to 1 that it's because you acknowledge the aftermath of meat consumption and try to make a difference.You do know that you can cut out vegitation in your diet as well, right? I need to find the source, but you can simply survive on water everyday and then watch the sun rise and sun set. The sun's rays give you nutrition and vital vitamins that all are needed to sustain your body.
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:23 pm
Devin K. Truessence SoyBoy Joshua
I never said you couldn't eat meat, I said there was no reason for it and I couldn't believe it was even being debated in an environmental guild amongst people that are otherwise knowledgeable to what's going on in the world and what needs to be done to conserve it.
Meat eating hurts your general health and well being, is unprovoked murder, and the biggest thing up for discussion here – damages the environment. There's absolutely no reason for it or way to defend it. And if your vegetarian you yourself are testament to that... I'm sure you made that choice for a reason, mind sharing why? I'll bet 10 to 1 that it's because you acknowledge the aftermath of meat consumption and try to make a difference.You do know that you can cut out vegitation in your diet as well, right? I need to find the source, but you can simply survive on water everyday and then watch the sun rise and sun set. The sun's rays give you nutrition and vital vitamins that all are needed to sustain your body. Well Devin is right, you do need the suns rays for skin health and other purposes. I do have to say; I disagree fully with the statements by SoyBoy, "no reason for it". Hmm well give me what links you've been reading if you would because in my research there are a few reasons for consuming meat! I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded!
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:26 pm
DavidOshi Devin K. Truessence SoyBoy Joshua
I never said you couldn't eat meat, I said there was no reason for it and I couldn't believe it was even being debated in an environmental guild amongst people that are otherwise knowledgeable to what's going on in the world and what needs to be done to conserve it.
Meat eating hurts your general health and well being, is unprovoked murder, and the biggest thing up for discussion here – damages the environment. There's absolutely no reason for it or way to defend it. And if your vegetarian you yourself are testament to that... I'm sure you made that choice for a reason, mind sharing why? I'll bet 10 to 1 that it's because you acknowledge the aftermath of meat consumption and try to make a difference.You do know that you can cut out vegitation in your diet as well, right? I need to find the source, but you can simply survive on water everyday and then watch the sun rise and sun set. The sun's rays give you nutrition and vital vitamins that all are needed to sustain your body. Well Devin is right, you do need the suns rays for skin health and other purposes. I do have to say; I disagree fully with the statements by SoyBoy, "no reason for it". Hmm well give me what links you've been reading if you would because in my research there are a few reasons for consuming meat! I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded! A good point exactly. ^_^
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:34 pm
DavidOshi I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded! I agree, but part of the idea is that meat requires more plants to be eaten, as well. To get a pound of beef, for example, you have to feed the mother of the cow, then feed the cow itself until he or she is slaughtered. Raising animals for meat requires a lot more land use and a lot more plant consumption than if we were supporting vegetarian diets. That's part of why it's usually considered more environmentally-friendly to eat vegetarian or vegan.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:20 pm
THE QUESTION. It always comes, eventually .I am a (new) vegan. It has been maybe three months at the most. I was a vegetarian for almost three years before I made the switch. I became a vegan because a friend of mine showed my a zine about the life of a typical American dairy cow. I won't go into it right now, there are plenty of online sources if you google "why vegan" or something of that sort. I no longer eat animal products because I for me the current negative impacts of eating them outways the positive. I am a middle-class, American teenager. If I were to live an "typical, tv, American" life, the amount of natural resources I would consume would be embarrassing. But I don't want to live that way. Just by living, many other organisms have to die to support me. Just by living in today's world, I produce pollution everywhere I go. Everyday I try to make that ecological burden just a little smaller. Consuming certain foods-and too much of it- is just one more burden on my back. I don't want all those cows, fish, chickens, pigs, clams, sheep, and lambs to die for my eating pleasure or sustainment. It is less stress on the whole if I eat rice, beans and a banana. If less people ate meat and dairy, there would be less suffering from both the animals and the environment.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:36 pm
Can you really take meat and other animal products out of your diet and be healthy?
It depends, just like with any eating habit. If you are too poor to get a variety of fruits, veggies, and grains, being a vegan is not for you. Meat and animal products are calorie, protein, and fat rich foods that are essensial to human nutrition. If food is hard to come by, then eating meat is key to surviving.
Also, you have to know HOW to feed yourself. If all you eat is lettuce, carrots, and apples, you will suffer from malnutrition and a whole mess of health problems.
But if done right, you can live a healthy life just by eating the magic that grows out of the ground. You would be suprised how wonderfully nutricious a fruit, seed, or bean can be (if it is grown and eaten the way nature intended to--organic and barely cooked). It is not true that vegans can only be healthy if they take vitamins, capsules, minerals, and other supplements.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:47 pm
Devin K. Truessence DavidOshi Devin K. Truessence SoyBoy Joshua
I never said you couldn't eat meat, I said there was no reason for it and I couldn't believe it was even being debated in an environmental guild amongst people that are otherwise knowledgeable to what's going on in the world and what needs to be done to conserve it.
Meat eating hurts your general health and well being, is unprovoked murder, and the biggest thing up for discussion here – damages the environment. There's absolutely no reason for it or way to defend it. And if your vegetarian you yourself are testament to that... I'm sure you made that choice for a reason, mind sharing why? I'll bet 10 to 1 that it's because you acknowledge the aftermath of meat consumption and try to make a difference.You do know that you can cut out vegitation in your diet as well, right? I need to find the source, but you can simply survive on water everyday and then watch the sun rise and sun set. The sun's rays give you nutrition and vital vitamins that all are needed to sustain your body. Well Devin is right, you do need the suns rays for skin health and other purposes. I do have to say; I disagree fully with the statements by SoyBoy, "no reason for it". Hmm well give me what links you've been reading if you would because in my research there are a few reasons for consuming meat! I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded! A good point exactly. ^_^ About "murder": I Do think about the plants I eat. I am extremely thankful that they sacrifice their lives, their seeds, and their fruit for me. That is why you have to give up what you take. You are correct, it IS a cycle. I inhale what the plants exhale and they do the same. We live for eachother. You need to be selfish in order to live on Earth, but you need to be selfless in order to live in harmony with it. It is all about balance. For me, eating meat and dairy and honey and buying leather and wool and new clothes and even eating too much salad and beans is tippping the scale on the "selfish" side.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:00 pm
In conclusion:
Why deprive myself of all that yummy food? The smores, the boloney sandwiches, the pizza, a hot fudge sunday, a big juicy steak?
Because to me, I am only making a sacrifice and being deprived if I feel that way. But if in my heart, I feel a little less guilty, a little more lighter, and little more selfless; if I realize that a fresh picked ear of corn with its golden sheen, earthy smell, and sweet-candy taste is more satisfying than Hershey's Kiss brownies with whipped cream on top, it doesn't count as deprivation or sacrifice.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:12 pm
Hummusalia eating [...] honey [...] is tippping the scale on the "selfish" side. This is something I never got. What's wrong with honey? neutral And anyway, long-term vegans have to take B12 supplements; there's no way to get it aside from animal products.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:25 pm
Tahpenes DavidOshi I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded! I agree, but part of the idea is that meat requires more plants to be eaten, as well. To get a pound of beef, for example, you have to feed the mother of the cow, then feed the cow itself until he or she is slaughtered. Raising animals for meat requires a lot more land use and a lot more plant consumption than if we were supporting vegetarian diets. That's part of why it's usually considered more environmentally-friendly to eat vegetarian or vegan. Yeah, I see your point! Well if you really think about it zoos do the same thing, but we consume the product in a different fashion. I'm not bashing zoo's because they give many animals homes and such.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:37 pm
Tahpenes Hummusalia eating [...] honey [...] is tippping the scale on the "selfish" side. This is something I never got. What's wrong with honey? neutral And anyway, long-term vegans have to take B12 supplements; there's no way to get it aside from animal products. Animals are animals, no matter how tiny, and that includes insects. Bees use their honey as a vital food source for the colony during the winter and when there is no pollen available for them. If lots of hungry humans eat their honey, how much is going to be left for them? Also, just like the majority of other animal-based industries, the bees are abused. Since they are inbred, one disease or sickness can wipe the whole colony out (and the bee keepers exterminate the colony anyway if there is a disease). The point is, we shouldn't abuse or take advantage of animals (or anything else) for pleasure. There are ways to make honey out of plants, too. It is also about sticking with the vegan ethics. Vegan means no animal products, and honey fits the category. Vitamin b12 comes from bacteria. It is consentrated in animal meat because they eat the plants from the ground without washing it, like we do. Long-term vegans in developed countries who eat the sterilized, clean foods found in markets and when practicing "cleanliness" do not get a chance to consume the b12. The bacteria and in our mouths produce b12, but it is hard to absorb from the intestines, and we are always striving for a "bacteria-free" mouth. It is possible to get b12 from plant-based diets, but you can't kill all the bacteria, or else you lose the b12. So technically, if you want to be "all-natural", you grow your own, organic food, keep your immune system up, have faith in your antibodies and your saliva, and eat your food without washing it first. That, and drink a glass of water before you brush your teeth in the morning, to get the B vitamins in your mouth that were produced in your throat overnight. Besides, the human body only needs a little bit of b12. You don't need as much of it as you need vitamin c or something.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:45 pm
DavidOshi Tahpenes DavidOshi I would also like to point out that vegetables and plants are living things as well, and in a way, they do have a soul or life-force present because they sustain life! Ok, so you don't eat meat and thats fine by me, there are some health benefits to not eating meat but you are still eating living things even if you are a vegetarian, "unprovoked murder"!Everything moves in cycles and this is not excluded! I agree, but part of the idea is that meat requires more plants to be eaten, as well. To get a pound of beef, for example, you have to feed the mother of the cow, then feed the cow itself until he or she is slaughtered. Raising animals for meat requires a lot more land use and a lot more plant consumption than if we were supporting vegetarian diets. That's part of why it's usually considered more environmentally-friendly to eat vegetarian or vegan. Yeah, I see your point! Well if you really think about it zoos do the same thing, but we consume the product in a different fashion. I'm not bashing zoo's because they give many animals homes and such. Vegan ethics are against zoos because even the best zoos can never replace life in the wild. And the magority of zoos are meant to make a profit, which eventually leads to (and already contain) mistreatment of animals. And with the endagered animals, instead of keeping them and breeding them in zoos, we should help protect their natural homes. Let's face it: no one wants their life and home on display for the amusement (and abuse) of others.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:33 am
Woah...It took forever to read all the posts I missed (plus the links and whatnot)...
Well I personally am not vegetarian or vegan or anything...But I see you guys' points....I think that if I must cut meat out of my diet, I'd choose vegetarianism over vegan...Cuz (at least to me) it seems like the vegan goal is to live life without harming others'. But that's IMPOSSIBLE. Just by eating plants you harm the lives of plants and all the organisms that contribute to their growth...Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression or something, but that's how I feel...
About the "meant to" eat meat thing...I think that we are biologically capable of eating BOTH meat and fruits/vegetables, but not the extent of carnivores where they chase down their prey and kill it and swallow it whole and etc.
Hmm...Yeah, raising animals for slaughter DOES take more lives, I have to agree. I really have no argument to that....
I think that we should just let things grow naturally and let nature take over. I don't like all the manufacturing and raising farm animals for slaughter...I want us to live like the animals we are--and in terms of food, that would be gathering fruits/vegetables and hunting animals that WERE NOT RAISED SPECIFICALLY FOR ABUSE/FOOD.
...I guess that's impossible at this point in time though, which is why (I guess) vegans go vegan or vegetarians go vegetarian.
I think I'm starting to change my mind. smile But I'd like to hear more arguments (backed up by unarguable facts) from BOTH SIDES, please. heart
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:54 am
Hi, I'm new to the guild, and personally, I'm a vegetarian. The rest of my family is not, and our opinions differ. I quite enjoy it. mrgreen 
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