|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:33 pm
goldenstar1975 Wow OK well my honest opinion on the matter is as complicated as everyone else. I think that making abortion illegal would end in more deaths then keeping it. I think abortion has been done since the beginning of people. Before Roe vs. Wade women with money went to their doctors and had nice save abortions by their own doctors. Women without money went to back alleys and got butchered and either died, were made sterile or were really really lucky and were fine. A mother and father in one state (I think it was ohio) petitioned to get the law changed that made underage girls inform their parents they were getting an abortion. They did this because their 17 year old honor student tried to abort herself and died. all because she didn't want to tell them she was pregnant. I hate abortion I hate living in a world where it's needed but it is. For whoever asked I almost went from being pro choice to pro life because of a very opinionated lady who argued so much for being pro choice that I wanted to kill her. lol But seriously I think it's a moral issue and if you can live with the decision that's your business. More than 1.4 million a year? I highly doubt it. And if someone is willing to die to kill another person, I say let them.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:49 pm
Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! i myself have lived my entire childhood and most of my teenage life believing that i was inherently a bad person because i am male. i was brought up in a feminist environment, with propeganda that spoke of the cruel and sexist way that men have treated women for generations. my first male role model was freaking Drizzt Do'Urden for crying out loud! that's a damn elf from a fantasy novel! o_O; i came to realize in time that alot of women realy take advantage of the whole feminist thing and turn it into what Black Power was to MLK. it wasn't about gender equality anymore, it was about revenge. how many women play victim, and then preach about how they deserve better? they set themselves up for these situations while simultaneously talking about how they are strong independant women who can anything a man does. but they CHOOSE to stay in submissive positions! they CHOOSE to throw themselves at men! and if that man doesn't devote himself to that woman (even if he doesn't do anything with her) she will spite him and hide behind feminism! i'v had enough of that bulshit! i don't need to be ashamed of my gender. i don't need to feel guilty for things i didn't do. and i don't need to appologize to treacherous spitefull snakes in the grass. now, as a man who has always wanted to be a father, i say this. if a woman agrees to have sex with me, and she becomes pregnant, i DO have a right to an equal say in whether or not she gives birth to MY kids! damnit, they are MY children! i won't take it lieing down! she won't have to keep them if she doesn't want, but if that's her decision then she better have a damn good reason to kill them or else she's bearing them for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:54 pm
Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. i'm a litteral b*****d. i didn't know my biological father untl i was within a week of my 20th birthday. are you saying then, that if my mom decided she couldn't bear to look at me (hypothetically) on the grounds that she would be reminded of Dan, that she has the right to kill me in the womb, before i even get to see light? damnit, i am not guilty for Dan running off and leavng my mom like that! why should i die? it's not that i don't love my mom, but seriously dude, have you ever thought of it like that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:57 pm
divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. to be honest, i couldn't agree here. even in rape, if the child-bearing does not pose a serious physical health risk i'd not be able to feel confortable with the idea of the option of abortion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:59 pm
divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin Aakosir I really do not see how it could be a female issue. Yes, women are the ones who get pregnant, but it's definitly morality that is in question. Men can choose for a woman to have an abortion, doesn't mean she will because of her morals. Thats the point Females should have the right to decide for themselves no one else! If they choose not to then its there choice and vice versa! but no one has the right to tell somewhat to do with there bodies! But i see what you mean. You're still dodging the point, and quite poorly. You're using flowery words like "With their bodies" and "Choice", magic good-words that imply freedom and happiness. What you are completely covering up is the fact that this choice is to kill a human being. It is not simply a choice to vote or a choice in what to eat or what clothes to wear- It is, specifically, the choice to kill another human being, and this is the problem. Look I am not dodging anything i see your point. I just dont feel the same way about it as you do. And a slave owner saying that it is his right to own "property" isn't dodging the fact that this property is living human beings? *raises hand* not if he's like me and openly admits and acknowledges the fact that his Slaves are still living human beings. o.o yes, i am a Slave-owner. and also a slave-owner (the difference is that the first are beloved and respected friends that i care about, and the others are not so personally close to me. they basically serve me because i make them).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:11 pm
Tourniquet Static it's just a tiny fetus, it's not a life. It's kinder to get rid of a barely-joined egg and sperm than to keep an unwanted child. wrong. fetuses are the form that is fully developed. it is alive. also, within the first few weeks the egg-and-sperm goo-pile has already begun multiplying and is alive. brain-patterns begin so very soon. it is a living thing. Quote: In the case of a rape, I think that YES you should be allowed to abort the non-child! It's a reminder of a crime, and the lowest point you could ever imagine. I myself have been sexually assaulted (not rape, just innapropriate contact) and I'm 13 frigging years old for God's sake, this is what the world has come to! Society is oversexualised and many people forget there is more to life than having 1001 kids and having it all over the place. i have been raped as well. and i am a man. it's pretty ******** embarressing, ain't it? everyone thinks it can't happen to men. it only happens to defenceless little girls and women, who are so much more fragile and smaller than men are. i've been raped by other men. and i have been raped by a girl, who is younger than me. 2 years my junior at least. i hate her. and i have also had to grow up with the knowledge that i was basically a hit-and-run baby. Dan abandoned my mom pregnant with me when she said she wouldn't abort me. let's return to my previous post about this, and say for the sake of argument that my mother couldn't stand to look at me because i was a reminder of being abandoned with child. what did i do to deserve death? Quote: This may seem very angry but I'm SICK of seeing babies having babies. It's not right. They're often not ready to have sex in the first place. You may be psychically ready but certainly not emotionally or mentally. Anyone care to disagree? I stick by this miniature essay, and you really can't convince me away from these. I don't think these are bad values. no value is bad. it is your opinion, your belief, whatever it is. same as i'll hold true to mine. still, i like to let other people know what my opinion is, and my supporting arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:13 pm
Lateralus Helica Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. tottally agreed here, save for the "lesser of two evils" bit. i always hated that mentality.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:16 pm
divineseraph Manga Punk Sai I see it as more of a philosophical issue. There are too many sides to it. Too many gray areas. At the end of the day though, I think it ought to be available. divineseraph In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. Pregnancy as the result of rape is "exceedingly rare"? What universe do you live in? Maybe if you decide to base the numbers on out of the abortions preformed, but what about out of all the rapes committed in the world each day? And death due to pregnancy or childbirth is not as rare as you'd think. It is. Rape, while more common than it should be, is not happening extremely often, and pregnancy because of it happens logically less than every single rape. And yes, they are- They are both extremely rare reasons for abortion. I am not saying that they should not be allowed- They should be. And this would cut down on abortion by about 1.1 million per year. The elective, convenience-driven killing of human beings is what I want to end. BULL ******** s**t! scream i can tell you first hand, and direct you to HOARDES of other first-hand experiences with all of these situations! and those people can tell you 2nd-hand stories as well! some can even direct you to yet more 1st-hand accounts, and so on! believe you me, those numbers are freaking HUGE! gonk
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:25 pm
I agree with chieftain the numbers are huge. I think like 1 in 2 women has been sexually abused some how. Personally every woman I know so I'll say that is low and 1 in 10 men. I really know that one is low men don't talk about it.
Ok comment number two Drizzt Do'Urden was the coolest person I ever read about so screw it that he was a character in a book.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:29 pm
emo he is pretty epic, though he gets hated on alot, even by other lovers of the books he stars in. i still am not ashamed to take alot of my beliefs from him, and quotes directly from the book as quotes for my life. smile i'll say this, it's hard believing that men arn't all pigs when you don't have any good male rolemodels. even my stepdad has mostly had only negetive effects on my upbringing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:44 pm
I'm sorry for that. I had the best male role model ever. My dad was a caring and giving person. He put everyone ahead of himself and loved his kids more then life. My only regret is that he died and left me lots sooner then I would have liked. I will never think all men suck, though i have met a bunch that did, because of him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:27 pm
I'm just going to repost something I said in another guild here...because as a cat I'm made of lazy...and I don't think I've ever been as eloquent xd Catharia If the father wants the baby, and I mean really wants it, and the mother doesn't, then that should be something they need to sort out between themselves. A friend of mine got pregnant to a man she later broke up with (before she knew of the sprog). She didn't want the baby, because she couldn't take care of it on her own, but he did want it when she told him. So she carried it to term, and handed it over to him, and his new partner (who was apparently overjoyed), and they cut all ties between her and the baby, including financial ones, and as far as I know the baby thinks the other women is his mum. They drew up all sorts of legal documents to get this done, but all parties were happy with the result. I think the same should be applicable for mothers who want the baby and fathers who don't. The fathers should be able to opt out, especially in those cases that the woman gets pregnant in order to keep the man in the failing relationship. Of course this should be reviewed on a case by case basis, but I still think the father should have a say. It's not just a matter of the mother sustaining the parasite/foetus, and carrying it to term, it's also the father's genetic investment. I'm pro-choice, but I think it should be a joint descision if they are, or were a couple. If the father was a one night stand, that's not something the mother should have to live with...though she should have known better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:31 pm
xd i love my guild. yes, that was probably one of your most well-spoken moments, but you have had others that were almost as eloquent.
to be honest, my biggest fear with parenthood is that i'm not fit to be a parent, and that my kids will hate me. you know what they say about familial patterns repeating themselves after all. and if i can't find Peace with my two fathers, i dunno how i can expect things to go for me and my children...
despite having the emotions and fears still there, i do feel like i've overcome the fear, at least to a point. though i can't deny i still struggle with it. i can't expect it to ever realy go away until i see them grow to teens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:46 pm
divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Ok pleasae don't yell at me anymore you are pro-life i get that. I respect your views. I really do understand your point I just have different opinions on it is all. And thats ok! It is the Females right to decide not yours, get over yourself! I wasn't yelling. I was using something called logic. And right now, it has crushed your argument to falling back on opinion, Which is the weakest argument possible. It is a psychopath's opinion that human life holds zero value, so murder should be legal. Get over yourself. It is a racist's opinion that black people aren't the same as white people, and they should be kept separate and enslaved. Get over yourself. It is a homophobic's opinion that gay people are sinful and deserve to die. get over yourself. I have already proven that you are ignoring the main point of the argument, and that it is not anyone's choice to kill anyone else. Again, you rely on an ad hominem and strawmen. Either learn logic or give up. Your so called logic is a rambling mess I am done! Get over yourself! Pitiful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:49 pm
Chieftain Twilight Lateralus Helica Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils. tottally agreed here, save for the "lesser of two evils" bit. i always hated that mentality. Depends on how you look at it and what exactly the scenario is, honestly. If the situation was with say a husband who's vasectomy failed and they went for it right after the first menstruation was missed, I'd definitely agree with you. Nothing really evil there as far as that goes. It's later in the pregnancy where it gets really tricky and then those women who, few in number though they are, use abortion as a regular type of birth control instead of bothering to even try another option.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
