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 Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:40 pm
Sanguina Cruenta brainnsoup Sanguina Cruenta brainnsoup And I think at the end you're describing Pascal's Wager which is basically the idea that if there is no god then we have no afterlife and suffer no consequences either way, but if there is a god and we live believing in that god, we go to heaven. But if we live as if He does not, we go to hell. So logically the smartest choice would be to follow religion because then we have a 1 in 2 chance of going to heaven instead of hell. But we, well I can't speak for anyone else so I'll use myself as an example, I am very confident in my belief that not only does God (or at least the one described in the bible) not exist, but there is no afterlife, including heaven and hell. So why fear something that I am 100% sure does not exist? Pascal's Wager doesn't work anyway, because it only works for one deity. If it's another deity entirely that's real, and you're worshipping a false one and that pisses off Real Deity, you'd get punished anyway. You'd be better off not believing in any of them because it's the same outcome either way and the not-believing way involves the least amount of effort. Oh, no no no no, I'm agreeing with you! blaugh I was just adding a little "yeah, and also it's crap for other reasons" addendum.
Haha, I shouldn't try to think while planning midnight donut adventures. sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:10 pm
Hey, you promised not to bite right? Well, I have a few points to bring up, just please don't jump one me.
My first point is that technically isn't there more evidence for a God because of all the experiences people have had with Him? It's harder (to my mind) to deny the existance of something thathas some evidence, then to believe.
Second, the argument was put up that it'd be better not to pick a God because that takes less energy. Wouldn't it make more sense to do tons of research to be sure Hell isn't real, (or any other form of punishment in the afterlife) because a) without a God, there isn't much point to life. (Sorry if I'm being depressing, but I don't see the poiint of toiling for a better world if we'll all be extinguised forever.) and b) I'd want to be 100% sure, because not finding the truth could be the greatest maistake of a person's existance.
Third of all, your other relationships will fail you. This is an inevitible fact of life. God never will (if, indeed, He's real). Even if He were a delusion, for me at least, He's a necessary one ([I would've commited suicide months ago if I hadn't thought that would've disappointed the Lord and that bvefore Him, it's wrong. I was pretty desperate for a while. If nothing else, that belief saved my life] I truly believe He's real, don't get me wrong).
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:11 am
xxEternallyBluexx Hey, you promised not to bite right? Well, I have a few points to bring up, just please don't jump one me. My first point is that technically isn't there more evidence for a God because of all the experiences people have had with Him? It's harder (to my mind) to deny the existance of something thathas some evidence, then to believe. Second, the argument was put up that it'd be better not to pick a God because that takes less energy. Wouldn't it make more sense to do tons of research to be sure Hell isn't real, (or any other form of punishment in the afterlife) because a) without a God, there isn't much point to life. (Sorry if I'm being depressing, but I don't see the poiint of toiling for a better world if we'll all be extinguised forever.) and b) I'd want to be 100% sure, because not finding the truth could be the greatest maistake of a person's existance. Third of all, your other relationships will fail you. This is an inevitible fact of life. God never will (if, indeed, He's real). Even if He were a delusion, for me at least, He's a necessary one ([I would've commited suicide months ago if I hadn't thought that would've disappointed the Lord and that bvefore Him, it's wrong. I was pretty desperate for a while. If nothing else, that belief saved my life] I truly believe He's real, don't get me wrong).
For your first point, are there any specific examples that you have in mind? Do you mean miracles from the bible or little modern miracles? I'm assuming you mean modern miracles like, say, an infertile couple getting pregnant after years of praying for a child because that seems like what you're talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.
But most of those can easily be explained by science. Or it's simply unlikely, but people automatically credit God when it's probably just chance. Let me set up a hypothetical.
A building collapses. A man on one of the lower floors survives for a week before rescue comes againts all odds. It's a miracle. He had a one in a million chance of surviving.
Well statistically, out of every million people in his situation, one is bound to survive. He just happened to be lucky enough to be that one.
Meanwhile, 999,999 people died.
He was saved by the grace of God.
They died by chance.
Or the couple who got pregnant when the doctors said it was impossible. That was a miracle.
But the millions of people starving in third world countries, that has nothing to do with God.
I know that's really long. My main point is that I think that people credit God with little "miracles" when there's really no proof that it's not just chance because it makes them feel better.
Sorry if that's not what you mean by experiences people have with God.
If it's not, food for thought, yeah? XD
For your second argument, most of us are pretty confident that we're right. I mean think about it, there are millions of religions. Millions of gods that people follow with the same unquestioning devotion, just as sure as you are of their faith.
How do you know yours is the right one?
And it is a little depressing. Because without God there goes the idea that we were put here for some greater purpose.
It usually depends on what kind of person you are. Some atheists do become depressed. But sometimes they're just pessimistic people.
Like usually optimistic atheists take it as "This is my one life. It's short. I'm going to make it count!"
Your third point, I don't doubt that I would be happier with a god that I could just unquestioningly follow and believe loved me and watched after me.
But since I simply don't and don't see how I ever really could with all my heart, I'd much rather accept the responsibility of being completely on my own and figure out my own path.
It is a little depressing sometimes, but I can't force myself to believe something that I don't.
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:05 am
xxEternallyBluexx Hey, you promised not to bite right? Well, I have a few points to bring up, just please don't jump one me. My first point is that technically isn't there more evidence for a God because of all the experiences people have had with Him? It's harder (to my mind) to deny the existance of something thathas some evidence, then to believe. Second, the argument was put up that it'd be better not to pick a God because that takes less energy. Wouldn't it make more sense to do tons of research to be sure Hell isn't real, (or any other form of punishment in the afterlife) because a) without a God, there isn't much point to life. (Sorry if I'm being depressing, but I don't see the poiint of toiling for a better world if we'll all be extinguised forever.) and b) I'd want to be 100% sure, because not finding the truth could be the greatest maistake of a person's existance. Third of all, your other relationships will fail you. This is an inevitible fact of life. God never will (if, indeed, He's real). Even if He were a delusion, for me at least, He's a necessary one ([I would've commited suicide months ago if I hadn't thought that would've disappointed the Lord and that bvefore Him, it's wrong. I was pretty desperate for a while. If nothing else, that belief saved my life] I truly believe He's real, don't get me wrong). And if what you say is true, that means there is at least one proof that Pascal's Wager might still work wink
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:17 pm
xxEternallyBluexx without a God, there isn't much point to life. (Sorry if I'm being depressing, but I don't see the poiint of toiling for a better world if we'll all be extinguised forever.) Because the better world is not for us. It's for those who come after. If there is nothing after and this life is all we get I think it makes it more important to do all we can with it. If this is the only life our children have, isn't impereative that we try and make it a good life for them? And I'm not even an atheist, just an interested Heathen.
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:58 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Hey, you promised not to bite right? Well, I have a few points to bring up, just please don't jump one me. My first point is that technically isn't there more evidence for a God because of all the experiences people have had with Him? It's harder (to my mind) to deny the existance of something thathas some evidence, then to believe. Second, the argument was put up that it'd be better not to pick a God because that takes less energy. Wouldn't it make more sense to do tons of research to be sure Hell isn't real, (or any other form of punishment in the afterlife) because a) without a God, there isn't much point to life. (Sorry if I'm being depressing, but I don't see the poiint of toiling for a better world if we'll all be extinguised forever.) and b) I'd want to be 100% sure, because not finding the truth could be the greatest maistake of a person's existance. Third of all, your other relationships will fail you. This is an inevitible fact of life. God never will (if, indeed, He's real). Even if He were a delusion, for me at least, He's a necessary one ([I would've commited suicide months ago if I hadn't thought that would've disappointed the Lord and that bvefore Him, it's wrong. I was pretty desperate for a while. If nothing else, that belief saved my life] I truly believe He's real, don't get me wrong). I tried believing in "GOD"..the only place it got me is where I am now. I've been through a lot of stuff someone my age shouldn't of been through..even when I believed..even when I prayed.. There was still NOTHING there.. I didn't have anyone but myself. I'm lucky to have the support I have now. I'm thankful to have that at least. I also don't think any of my relationships will fail me. I only have one lol..the other ones failed when I was young and abused. I don't find it necessary to believe in something just for the sake of it. It's not right..if I know that I truly don't believe in it, I can't put on a face. confused
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:01 pm
@brainnsoup:That's kinda what I mean. I mean there's cases where say a woman who can't walk has a pastor (who doesn't even know her) point at her and say run, and she RUNS. Or my mom was stung by a bee at one point, and prayed it gone. She doubted that it happened a few hours, and immediately it came back. The inexplicable begs for an explanation.
There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). I'm gonna add my mom is one of the most sane people I know. There's some people I wouldn't believe (my dad for instance) but my mom isn't delusional or anything
And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too.
I know because of the exeriences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that?
And I don't expect you to force yourself. I just hope the Lord reveals Himself to you, especially if you really want to know if He's real.
And thanks for not biting me. biggrin
@gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed.
@Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them.
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:18 pm
xxEternallyBluexx There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). They're dreams, I've had very realistic dreams that were not real. For instance the other day I had a dream where I was killing vampires, just chopping them up real good. In that dream I woke up, went to school, and talked to my friend that sits next to me and told her about my dream. It was very realistic. You know what I did when I got to school? I told my friend about my dream. Point being, dreams are just dreams, simple as that. Your mom had a dream where she had you? Well lots of people have dreams about that kind of thing, and if your mom was wanting a baby it was probably on her mind when she went to sleep. Your mom saw "Hell" in her sleep? Well if you've read descriptive scripture on Hell your brain can get very creative and create images of said place. Semi consciously she was probably feeling like what she was doing was not right, and that she might go to hell. Her dream just reflected those thoughts. The fact that she speaks of it as an experience is not very weird, for a very long time I actually believed that I was involved in a tornado when I was young, and that everybody wore clown suits in my family. Figured out it was a dream... Quote: And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I used to be just like this. I used to "feel the Holy Spirit" I could "feel His presence". Then I became alienated from the church when they didn't accept us when they find out my mom and dad weren't married. I'm not saying they like wouldn't let us in the church, let's just say every time we went we got weird stares. I've come to the conclusion that "his presence", his "Holy Spirit" was just being accepted and loved by a close community of people. That it was a place where you could go and tell people problems and they would accept you,(although we found out later that is not always the case) especially when things are going bad. It is kind of like a placebo pill. Karl Marx said it best when he said: Quote: Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. Quote: I know because of the experiences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. Or there could be evil because we live in such an imperfect world. We live in a world with oppression, killing, stealing, and all those other "evil" things because material conditions don't allow for everything to be perfect Quote: We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. But if God wanted our love not our obedience, why did he kick us out of Eden the moment we disobeyed him? Quote: It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? They probably "learned" it from the fact that nobody likes being lied to. If someone says they're going to be home to cook dinner and then they don't show up, you might get a little agitated because they said they would be there but they're not. Quote: @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. What if life is pointless? That would mean you should be working to better yourself and to better those around you if you're miserable instead of sitting around and hoping that there is an afterlife. If you don't, it doesn't matter anyways does it? Quote: @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them. What about people who would stay up all night crying because their family won't accept them for their beliefs? They would stay up all night and pray to something they wanted to believe in so bad because it would make life so much easier. This is what happened to my foster sister. Her old foster parents kicked her out when she wouldn't accept their beliefs. No public ridicule, no weird stares, no more people telling you your selfish and cold-hearted for your beliefs(People have actually told me this after I told them I was atheist). There are so many similar stories where people would really want to "know God" but he never shows up.
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:35 pm
xxEternallyBluexx @brainnsoup:That's kinda what I mean. I mean there's cases where say a woman who can't walk has a pastor (who doesn't even know her) point at her and say run, and she RUNS. Or my mom was stung by a bee at one point, and prayed it gone. She doubted that it happened a few hours, and immediately it came back. The inexplicable begs for an explanation. There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). I'm gonna add my mom is one of the most sane people I know. There's some people I wouldn't believe (my dad for instance) but my mom isn't delusional or anything And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I know because of the exeriences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? And I don't expect you to force yourself. I just hope the Lord reveals Himself to you, especially if you really want to know if He's real. And thanks for not biting me. biggrin @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them.
I could pray for the sun to come up tomorrow morning, but when it does will it be because I prayed?
Meanwhile millions of prayers go unanswered.
You see families praying around hospitals all the time that their loved ones make it, and the sad reality is that often they don't.
Why would God answer a prayer for something trivial like a bee sting, meanwhile letting people all over the world die, regardless of their beliefs?
I'm sorry to say that I think that was nothing more than coincidence.
And scientists argue on the meanings of dreams.
Isn't it possible that that dream was just a manifestation of her own guilt?
I mean, it kind of comes down to your interpretation of dreams.
But we dream of what we know and it makes sense for someone who was raised Christian their whole lives to dream of hell.
She was guilty so she dreamed of hell.
Or maybe she dreamed of hell and that made her look back on how she'd been living her life.
There's not enough information to know.
Certainly not enough to assume that it was a vision.
It has nothing to do with delusion, simply how we percieve things.
As for feeling the presence of God, that also comes down to our own perception.
Atheists probably have those same feelings, we just call it something else.
You call it a spiritual connection with God because you feel that you should have a connection with Him.
Religion's purpose is to explain things. Christianity explained a lot of things that we could not explain with science at the time, whether or not it was right.
But of course now we know things like the fact that the earth is not the center of the unsiverse, that it revolves around the sun and not the other way around.
Christianity offers easy answers.
There is evil because people are complicated. Each equipped with our own set of morals and experience.
Besides, evil is subjective. What is considered evil in your mind might be just in another culture.
And if Christian God didn't want our unquestioned obedience, why are the punishments for disobedience so harsh?
Why did he freak out on Adam and Eve for disobeying him once in what, in my opinion, didn't really seemed to be either of thier faults?
And it's easy to come to the same conclusion with morals without religion.
Nobody likes being lied to.
Without anyone telling him that lying is wrong, once that child reaches a certain age where he can see things from other people's point of view, he'll likely learn that lying is "bad" on his own.
Of course at three years old he probably won't make that connection, just know that he didn't get his way and be dissapointed.
Or myself. I'm an atheist. But I still think that killing is morally wrong.
I don't need any God, any promise of heaven, any threat of hell to believe that.
Your point on sociopaths made me have a random interesting thought though. XD
If a sociopath kills, does he go to hell?
As I understand it, he's completely incapable of understanding why killing is wrong.
It's not his fault.
If anything, it's God's. He created him.
Does he still go to hell?
And no problem. Besides, the police say if I bite one more person I'll probably have to pay a fine...
And again, please try not to take anything I say personally or as an attack againts your religion.
I don't mean to offend anyone. That's just how I see things.[/disclaimer]
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:20 pm
Revolutionary Justice xxEternallyBluexx There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). They're dreams, I've had very realistic dreams that were not real. For instance the other day I had a dream where I was killing vampires, just chopping them up real good. In that dream I woke up, went to school, and talked to my friend that sits next to me and told her about my dream. It was very realistic. You know what I did when I got to school? I told my friend about my dream. Point being, dreams are just dreams, simple as that. Your mom had a dream where she had you? Well lots of people have dreams about that kind of thing, and if your mom was wanting a baby it was probably on her mind when she went to sleep. Your mom saw "Hell" in her sleep? Well if you've read descriptive scripture on Hell your brain can get very creative and create images of said place. Semi consciously she was probably feeling like what she was doing was not right, and that she might go to hell. Her dream just reflected those thoughts. The fact that she speaks of it as an experience is not very weird, for a very long time I actually believed that I was involved in a tornado when I was young, and that everybody wore clown suits in my family. Figured out it was a dream... Quote: And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I used to be just like this. I used to "feel the Holy Spirit" I could "feel His presence". Then I became alienated from the church when they didn't accept us when they find out my mom and dad weren't married. I'm not saying they like wouldn't let us in the church, let's just say every time we went we got weird stares. I've come to the conclusion that "his presence", his "Holy Spirit" was just being accepted and loved by a close community of people. That it was a place where you could go and tell people problems and they would accept you,(although we found out later that is not always the case) especially when things are going bad. It is kind of like a placebo pill. Karl Marx said it best when he said: Quote: Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. Quote: I know because of the experiences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. Or there could be evil because we live in such an imperfect world. We live in a world with oppression, killing, stealing, and all those other "evil" things because material conditions don't allow for everything to be perfect Quote: We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. But if God wanted our love not our obedience, why did he kick us out of Eden the moment we disobeyed him? Quote: It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? They probably "learned" it from the fact that nobody likes being lied to. If someone says they're going to be home to cook dinner and then they don't show up, you might get a little agitated because they said they would be there but they're not. Quote: @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. What if life is pointless? That would mean you should be working to better yourself and to better those around you if you're miserable instead of sitting around and hoping that there is an afterlife. If you don't, it doesn't matter anyways does it? Quote: @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them. What about people who would stay up all night crying because their family won't accept them for their beliefs? They would stay up all night and pray to something they wanted to believe in so bad because it would make life so much easier. This is what happened to my foster sister. Her old foster parents kicked her out when she wouldn't accept their beliefs. No public ridicule, no weird stares, no more people telling you your selfish and cold-hearted for your beliefs(People have actually told me this after I told them I was atheist). There are so many similar stories where people would really want to "know God" but he never shows up. Actually, my mom didn't want to have kids...at all. She loves us a lot, but she had spent her childhood being a 'mini mom' to her sisters. She didn't really want to do that again. And the whole subconcious imagery would be very surprising considering my mom wasn't raised too religously (she went to church when she was a kid, but she wasn't big on it. I think at that point she was an athiest/agnostic. Not sure). If that feeling comes from belonging, then why do I feel it most when I'm alone? I was at an event called Breakout, and I started dancing during worship. My youth group didn't like it, but that's when I felt the Lord's presence. I felt again later that night alone. And I happen to hold an extreme dislike of that quote. Yes, the Lord is a comfort (which can be twisted into opium), but all that proves to me is the most convincing arguments are the ones with a bit of truth in them. But see, if we were made from this world, we really shouldn't be able to recognize anything wrong with it (That's in Mere Christianity. I really love this book CS Lewis argues well, and he starts from an athiest point of view.) He kicked us out so we wouldn't live forever in our twisted state. He also did it because we chose sin, not Him. We chose death and evil. Besides that the Just part of His nature demanded we be punished. That's why Jesus eventually had to die for us. Why would they care so much about whether something was true or not though? And, how about this, the first time I felt guilt, I remember how off it felt. It felt unnatural, and I was almost convinced I was sick. According to my mom my sibs and I all went to her about that feeling. Why the struggle with nothing to look forward to though? How could you stand it? Athiesm isn't much better in that regard (People claiming a Being you love who saved/Saved your life doesn't exist or is a myth; doubting your word and that of your family; people claiming sins like sex before marriage and abortion are a person's choice and right; blaming your God for wars, evil and people's actions; denying the beauty and intent of this Creation, living in a where science takes emotion and beauty and puts it in terms of formulas and chemicals; people basically freaking out if you evangelize when you're not doing out of any wish to put yourself out there, but only because you care; demanding answers you don't have because some things won't be understood yet because He's greater then us...etc. In today's society being a Chistian, espcially a Fundamentalist means being an outcast). And I don't have an answer, because I don't have a reason behind everything God does. All I can do is take it on faith that He has everything taken care of, and that He is a good God.
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:07 am
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx @brainnsoup:That's kinda what I mean. I mean there's cases where say a woman who can't walk has a pastor (who doesn't even know her) point at her and say run, and she RUNS. Or my mom was stung by a bee at one point, and prayed it gone. She doubted that it happened a few hours, and immediately it came back. The inexplicable begs for an explanation. There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). I'm gonna add my mom is one of the most sane people I know. There's some people I wouldn't believe (my dad for instance) but my mom isn't delusional or anything And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I know because of the exeriences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? And I don't expect you to force yourself. I just hope the Lord reveals Himself to you, especially if you really want to know if He's real. And thanks for not biting me. biggrin @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them.
I could pray for the sun to come up tomorrow morning, but when it does will it be because I prayed?
Meanwhile millions of prayers go unanswered.
You see families praying around hospitals all the time that their loved ones make it, and the sad reality is that often they don't.
Why would God answer a prayer for something trivial like a bee sting, meanwhile letting people all over the world die, regardless of their beliefs?
I'm sorry to say that I think that was nothing more than coincidence.
And scientists argue on the meanings of dreams.
Isn't it possible that that dream was just a manifestation of her own guilt?
I mean, it kind of comes down to your interpretation of dreams.
But we dream of what we know and it makes sense for someone who was raised Christian their whole lives to dream of hell.
She was guilty so she dreamed of hell.
Or maybe she dreamed of hell and that made her look back on how she'd been living her life.
There's not enough information to know.
Certainly not enough to assume that it was a vision.
It has nothing to do with delusion, simply how we percieve things.
As for feeling the presence of God, that also comes down to our own perception.
Atheists probably have those same feelings, we just call it something else.
You call it a spiritual connection with God because you feel that you should have a connection with Him.
Religion's purpose is to explain things. Christianity explained a lot of things that we could not explain with science at the time, whether or not it was right.
But of course now we know things like the fact that the earth is not the center of the unsiverse, that it revolves around the sun and not the other way around.
Christianity offers easy answers.
There is evil because people are complicated. Each equipped with our own set of morals and experience.
Besides, evil is subjective. What is considered evil in your mind might be just in another culture.
And if Christian God didn't want our unquestioned obedience, why are the punishments for disobedience so harsh?
Why did he freak out on Adam and Eve for disobeying him once in what, in my opinion, didn't really seemed to be either of thier faults?
And it's easy to come to the same conclusion with morals without religion.
Nobody likes being lied to.
Without anyone telling him that lying is wrong, once that child reaches a certain age where he can see things from other people's point of view, he'll likely learn that lying is "bad" on his own.
Of course at three years old he probably won't make that connection, just know that he didn't get his way and be dissapointed.
Or myself. I'm an atheist. But I still think that killing is morally wrong.
I don't need any God, any promise of heaven, any threat of hell to believe that.
Your point on sociopaths made me have a random interesting thought though. XD
If a sociopath kills, does he go to hell?
As I understand it, he's completely incapable of understanding why killing is wrong.
It's not his fault.
If anything, it's God's. He created him.
Does he still go to hell?
And no problem. Besides, the police say if I bite one more person I'll probably have to pay a fine...
And again, please try not to take anything I say personally or as an attack againts your religion.
I don't mean to offend anyone. That's just how I see things.[/disclaimer]I doubt there is. And why shouldn't He have taken it away? He does heal some things, and it makes more sense then the bee sting just vanishing. And I don't the Lord's reasons for everything. If I could explain Him, then He wouldn't be God, would He? Could've been, but I don't think it was. I like thinking the Lord meant for me to be born. Oops, sorry, the Hell thing wasn't a dream but a vision. My bad. It's too intense for that. They do this thing at my church will people will 'go down' because the Holy Spirit is on them. My mom did that once at a church that didn't approve and something like four or five men couldn't get her off the floor because He had knocked Her down so hard. The whole time my mom was in a state of pure bliss and peace. Christianity's purpose is to offer people a way to have a relationship with the Lord, and to become spiritually alive. I like the fact it explains things, but I love my God. And that doesn't really explain why everyone has a sense of evil. Besides that certain taboos cross cultures like killing, stealing, and lying. Why are those specific actions (in many cultures) wrong? They are because sin means seperation from God. Life flows from God, so being seperated from Him leads to suffering. It's like putting a plant in the dark. It's really doubtful it'll thrive. And it was their fault. They did what God specifically told them not to, despite knowing the punishment. Don't forget, He did warn them. But thinking things are wrong seems to stem from before a child should be able to percieve such things. At the point where they can percieve such things, they start expressing outrage over such things, despite the fact no one else has such a passionate (or even a noticeable) reaction. I think it's wrong too, but nothing explains why we think it's wrong. Animals don't care if one of their kind dies (for the most part. There are exceptions) and murder is accepted. I doubt my cat would feel guilty if another cat died at her paws. Nature doesn't seem to care, so why do we. I don't know. If I were a sociopath, I'd pray that God would fix me. What I really don't understand is, are sociopaths born without morals, or do they just sin enough that they lose them? lol I won't just as long as you promise to do the same.
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:40 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx @brainnsoup:That's kinda what I mean. I mean there's cases where say a woman who can't walk has a pastor (who doesn't even know her) point at her and say run, and she RUNS. Or my mom was stung by a bee at one point, and prayed it gone. She doubted that it happened a few hours, and immediately it came back. The inexplicable begs for an explanation. There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). I'm gonna add my mom is one of the most sane people I know. There's some people I wouldn't believe (my dad for instance) but my mom isn't delusional or anything And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I know because of the exeriences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? And I don't expect you to force yourself. I just hope the Lord reveals Himself to you, especially if you really want to know if He's real. And thanks for not biting me. biggrin @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them.
I could pray for the sun to come up tomorrow morning, but when it does will it be because I prayed?
Meanwhile millions of prayers go unanswered.
You see families praying around hospitals all the time that their loved ones make it, and the sad reality is that often they don't.
Why would God answer a prayer for something trivial like a bee sting, meanwhile letting people all over the world die, regardless of their beliefs?
I'm sorry to say that I think that was nothing more than coincidence.
And scientists argue on the meanings of dreams.
Isn't it possible that that dream was just a manifestation of her own guilt?
I mean, it kind of comes down to your interpretation of dreams.
But we dream of what we know and it makes sense for someone who was raised Christian their whole lives to dream of hell.
She was guilty so she dreamed of hell.
Or maybe she dreamed of hell and that made her look back on how she'd been living her life.
There's not enough information to know.
Certainly not enough to assume that it was a vision.
It has nothing to do with delusion, simply how we percieve things.
As for feeling the presence of God, that also comes down to our own perception.
Atheists probably have those same feelings, we just call it something else.
You call it a spiritual connection with God because you feel that you should have a connection with Him.
Religion's purpose is to explain things. Christianity explained a lot of things that we could not explain with science at the time, whether or not it was right.
But of course now we know things like the fact that the earth is not the center of the unsiverse, that it revolves around the sun and not the other way around.
Christianity offers easy answers.
There is evil because people are complicated. Each equipped with our own set of morals and experience.
Besides, evil is subjective. What is considered evil in your mind might be just in another culture.
And if Christian God didn't want our unquestioned obedience, why are the punishments for disobedience so harsh?
Why did he freak out on Adam and Eve for disobeying him once in what, in my opinion, didn't really seemed to be either of thier faults?
And it's easy to come to the same conclusion with morals without religion.
Nobody likes being lied to.
Without anyone telling him that lying is wrong, once that child reaches a certain age where he can see things from other people's point of view, he'll likely learn that lying is "bad" on his own.
Of course at three years old he probably won't make that connection, just know that he didn't get his way and be dissapointed.
Or myself. I'm an atheist. But I still think that killing is morally wrong.
I don't need any God, any promise of heaven, any threat of hell to believe that.
Your point on sociopaths made me have a random interesting thought though. XD
If a sociopath kills, does he go to hell?
As I understand it, he's completely incapable of understanding why killing is wrong.
It's not his fault.
If anything, it's God's. He created him.
Does he still go to hell?
And no problem. Besides, the police say if I bite one more person I'll probably have to pay a fine...
And again, please try not to take anything I say personally or as an attack againts your religion.
I don't mean to offend anyone. That's just how I see things.[/disclaimer]I doubt there is. And why shouldn't He have taken it away? He does heal some things, and it makes more sense then the bee sting just vanishing. And I don't the Lord's reasons for everything. If I could explain Him, then He wouldn't be God, would He? Could've been, but I don't think it was. I like thinking the Lord meant for me to be born. Oops, sorry, the Hell thing wasn't a dream but a vision. My bad. It's too intense for that. They do this thing at my church will people will 'go down' because the Holy Spirit is on them. My mom did that once at a church that didn't approve and something like four or five men couldn't get her off the floor because He had knocked Her down so hard. The whole time my mom was in a state of pure bliss and peace. Christianity's purpose is to offer people a way to have a relationship with the Lord, and to become spiritually alive. I like the fact it explains things, but I love my God. And that doesn't really explain why everyone has a sense of evil. Besides that certain taboos cross cultures like killing, stealing, and lying. Why are those specific actions (in many cultures) wrong? They are because sin means seperation from God. Life flows from God, so being seperated from Him leads to suffering. It's like putting a plant in the dark. It's really doubtful it'll thrive. And it was their fault. They did what God specifically told them not to, despite knowing the punishment. Don't forget, He did warn them. But thinking things are wrong seems to stem from before a child should be able to percieve such things. At the point where they can percieve such things, they start expressing outrage over such things, despite the fact no one else has such a passionate (or even a noticeable) reaction. I think it's wrong too, but nothing explains why we think it's wrong. Animals don't care if one of their kind dies (for the most part. There are exceptions) and murder is accepted. I doubt my cat would feel guilty if another cat died at her paws. Nature doesn't seem to care, so why do we. I don't know. If I were a sociopath, I'd pray that God would fix me. What I really don't understand is, are sociopaths born without morals, or do they just sin enough that they lose them? lol I won't just as long as you promise to do the same.
There are so many probably reasons more likely than God, who is credited with creating every creature on earth and watching over each of His creations, who lets millions of prayers go ignored curing a bee sting.
Not to mention the millions of other gods who have the same possibility of existing.
Perhaps you can not explain His reasoning because his alleged actions make no sense?
God or otherwise?
People create morals because we have this amazing capability to learn and build off of our experiences, with or without religion.
We're still flawed. People still commit evils, don't they?
But people still come to the same conclusions all around the world and put them into their own religion.
Which brings up another point. If we assume that what you say about sin turning us from God, how do you know it is your God?
How do you know that it's not one of the countless other Gods that you feel a connection to?
And even though the big ones, killing, stealing, lying are sins in many cultures, not all are.
How do you explain that?
And The bible's idea of right and wrong changes over time.
Like the attitude towards women.
Did God change his mind after women started to have more of a voice?
And Eve was tricked by Satan, Adam was tricked by Eve.
God made them stupid. And if He knew anything about the creatures he created, he wouldn't have told them of the tree or even had it there in the first place.
And he damned them and mankind to a life of suffering. Forever. For eating a fruit.
And actually, we're talking about moral development in my psych class, so this works out well. XD
Children's understainding of right and wrong pretty much comes down to if an authority figure said it and whether or not they'll get caught.
And animals are sad when one of their own dies.
Have you ever had more than one dog at the same time? When one dog dies, the other might not know where her companion went, but when they don't return, she might stop eating, age a lot, become depressed.
Wolves too. If a member of the pack dies, the mood of the entire pack changes.
A wolf will kill another wolf that's not in his pack if he feels threatenned, sure.
But do humans not do the same thing?
Do we not outlaw murder in our own country, but then encourage young kids to go out and kill overseas?
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:33 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx @brainnsoup:That's kinda what I mean. I mean there's cases where say a woman who can't walk has a pastor (who doesn't even know her) point at her and say run, and she RUNS. Or my mom was stung by a bee at one point, and prayed it gone. She doubted that it happened a few hours, and immediately it came back. The inexplicable begs for an explanation. There's dreams, like my mom dreamed she would have me, and she dreamed of Hell, when she was in college. She was doing a lot of bad stuff, and she dreamed the wall between her and it was lessening. Even today, she speaks of it, like an experience and not a dream (and there was gnashing of teeth and moaning cry ). I'm gonna add my mom is one of the most sane people I know. There's some people I wouldn't believe (my dad for instance) but my mom isn't delusional or anything And then there's feeling His presence. I've grown up with people who have felt the Holy Spirit, and recently I've been feeling it myself. What can you call that? Mass insanity? Besides that, millions of people have followed Christianity and seen miracles and experienced the Holy Ghost. For Christianity to be wrong, every single person would have to be wrong too. I know because of the exeriences of people around me, and because it explains so much. There's evil because we seperated ourselves from God who is good. We were given a choice because He wanted our love, not our obedience. It's also why everyone has a sense of right and wrong (except for sociopaths I guess). You know kids around the age of three hate when parents tell them something (like they'll be home for dinner)and turn out to be wrong, because they think it's lying and they can't stand it (thats in NurtureShock). Where did they learn that? And I don't expect you to force yourself. I just hope the Lord reveals Himself to you, especially if you really want to know if He's real. And thanks for not biting me. biggrin @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. @Taco:You're right, it wouldn't be right to put on a face. What my mom says is that the Lord will reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him with all their heart. If someone really wants to know, He'll show them.
I could pray for the sun to come up tomorrow morning, but when it does will it be because I prayed?
Meanwhile millions of prayers go unanswered.
You see families praying around hospitals all the time that their loved ones make it, and the sad reality is that often they don't.
Why would God answer a prayer for something trivial like a bee sting, meanwhile letting people all over the world die, regardless of their beliefs?
I'm sorry to say that I think that was nothing more than coincidence.
And scientists argue on the meanings of dreams.
Isn't it possible that that dream was just a manifestation of her own guilt?
I mean, it kind of comes down to your interpretation of dreams.
But we dream of what we know and it makes sense for someone who was raised Christian their whole lives to dream of hell.
She was guilty so she dreamed of hell.
Or maybe she dreamed of hell and that made her look back on how she'd been living her life.
There's not enough information to know.
Certainly not enough to assume that it was a vision.
It has nothing to do with delusion, simply how we percieve things.
As for feeling the presence of God, that also comes down to our own perception.
Atheists probably have those same feelings, we just call it something else.
You call it a spiritual connection with God because you feel that you should have a connection with Him.
Religion's purpose is to explain things. Christianity explained a lot of things that we could not explain with science at the time, whether or not it was right.
But of course now we know things like the fact that the earth is not the center of the unsiverse, that it revolves around the sun and not the other way around.
Christianity offers easy answers.
There is evil because people are complicated. Each equipped with our own set of morals and experience.
Besides, evil is subjective. What is considered evil in your mind might be just in another culture.
And if Christian God didn't want our unquestioned obedience, why are the punishments for disobedience so harsh?
Why did he freak out on Adam and Eve for disobeying him once in what, in my opinion, didn't really seemed to be either of thier faults?
And it's easy to come to the same conclusion with morals without religion.
Nobody likes being lied to.
Without anyone telling him that lying is wrong, once that child reaches a certain age where he can see things from other people's point of view, he'll likely learn that lying is "bad" on his own.
Of course at three years old he probably won't make that connection, just know that he didn't get his way and be dissapointed.
Or myself. I'm an atheist. But I still think that killing is morally wrong.
I don't need any God, any promise of heaven, any threat of hell to believe that.
Your point on sociopaths made me have a random interesting thought though. XD
If a sociopath kills, does he go to hell?
As I understand it, he's completely incapable of understanding why killing is wrong.
It's not his fault.
If anything, it's God's. He created him.
Does he still go to hell?
And no problem. Besides, the police say if I bite one more person I'll probably have to pay a fine...
And again, please try not to take anything I say personally or as an attack againts your religion.
I don't mean to offend anyone. That's just how I see things.[/disclaimer]I doubt there is. And why shouldn't He have taken it away? He does heal some things, and it makes more sense then the bee sting just vanishing. And I don't the Lord's reasons for everything. If I could explain Him, then He wouldn't be God, would He? Could've been, but I don't think it was. I like thinking the Lord meant for me to be born. Oops, sorry, the Hell thing wasn't a dream but a vision. My bad. It's too intense for that. They do this thing at my church will people will 'go down' because the Holy Spirit is on them. My mom did that once at a church that didn't approve and something like four or five men couldn't get her off the floor because He had knocked Her down so hard. The whole time my mom was in a state of pure bliss and peace. Christianity's purpose is to offer people a way to have a relationship with the Lord, and to become spiritually alive. I like the fact it explains things, but I love my God. And that doesn't really explain why everyone has a sense of evil. Besides that certain taboos cross cultures like killing, stealing, and lying. Why are those specific actions (in many cultures) wrong? They are because sin means seperation from God. Life flows from God, so being seperated from Him leads to suffering. It's like putting a plant in the dark. It's really doubtful it'll thrive. And it was their fault. They did what God specifically told them not to, despite knowing the punishment. Don't forget, He did warn them. But thinking things are wrong seems to stem from before a child should be able to percieve such things. At the point where they can percieve such things, they start expressing outrage over such things, despite the fact no one else has such a passionate (or even a noticeable) reaction. I think it's wrong too, but nothing explains why we think it's wrong. Animals don't care if one of their kind dies (for the most part. There are exceptions) and murder is accepted. I doubt my cat would feel guilty if another cat died at her paws. Nature doesn't seem to care, so why do we. I don't know. If I were a sociopath, I'd pray that God would fix me. What I really don't understand is, are sociopaths born without morals, or do they just sin enough that they lose them? lol I won't just as long as you promise to do the same.
There are so many probably reasons more likely than God, who is credited with creating every creature on earth and watching over each of His creations, who lets millions of prayers go ignored curing a bee sting.
Not to mention the millions of other gods who have the same possibility of existing.
Perhaps you can not explain His reasoning because his alleged actions make no sense?
God or otherwise?
People create morals because we have this amazing capability to learn and build off of our experiences, with or without religion.
We're still flawed. People still commit evils, don't they?
But people still come to the same conclusions all around the world and put them into their own religion.
Which brings up another point. If we assume that what you say about sin turning us from God, how do you know it is your God?
How do you know that it's not one of the countless other Gods that you feel a connection to?
And even though the big ones, killing, stealing, lying are sins in many cultures, not all are.
How do you explain that?
And The bible's idea of right and wrong changes over time.
Like the attitude towards women.
Did God change his mind after women started to have more of a voice?
And Eve was tricked by Satan, Adam was tricked by Eve.
God made them stupid. And if He knew anything about the creatures he created, he wouldn't have told them of the tree or even had it there in the first place.
And he damned them and mankind to a life of suffering. Forever. For eating a fruit.
And actually, we're talking about moral development in my psych class, so this works out well. XD
Children's understainding of right and wrong pretty much comes down to if an authority figure said it and whether or not they'll get caught.
And animals are sad when one of their own dies.
Have you ever had more than one dog at the same time? When one dog dies, the other might not know where her companion went, but when they don't return, she might stop eating, age a lot, become depressed.
Wolves too. If a member of the pack dies, the mood of the entire pack changes.
A wolf will kill another wolf that's not in his pack if he feels threatenned, sure.
But do humans not do the same thing?
Do we not outlaw murder in our own country, but then encourage young kids to go out and kill overseas?According to my mom, it swelled, it went away and then it swelled again when her faith diminished. This minor miracle doesn't really have an explanation. They don't all have the same possiblity. Some definetely have more proof to them. Also, if some of the other religions have miracles, it could be Satan. And sometimes God tests us, or has other reasons. The Great Divorce by CS Lewis provides some insight into say, why a loved one might be taken away. You have to remember, even something that might seem good at the time could end up to have negative consequences, and vice versa. I trust God. They commit evils because of Satan and other dark powers and principalities, and also because the Lord gave us the choice of being able to sin or do right. Oh, and intresting, thought: where does the desire to survive and have a legacy come from? Doesn't that speak of something deeper too? And having morals for the most part, would probrably not help a race to survive. Animals don't care if they steal from each other. Why do we feel guilt and they don't? I said there are exceptions. Usually though, there is a taboo no one in the culture will commit. Every culture also has a taboo against being naked. Coincidence? G2G Reply more later.
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:18 pm
xxEternallyBluexx @gorram:My point there is that our kids lives also don't mean anything because they'll just die and fade too. With no afterlife, nothing lasts, therefore eveything is pointless. With an afterlife, even a life of pure misery can be redeemed. The joy I feel when my neice hugs me, is that pointless? The love I feel when I'm in my boyfriend's arms, is that pointless? The pride I felt when my friend confided in me, was that pointless? Whether you believe in a god or not, it's up to you whether or not life has a purpose.
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:56 pm
OK... I've read the argument from the Christian dude (forgive me i didn't catch ur name in the posts) but it doesn't seem like a sound argument, I'm not atheist for the record I'm Pagan. You claim God is there for people and he shows the light and such but I was christian for a few days maybe a week and I felt like the worst person in the world for being it, shouldn't i have felt good and such? I later converted to Paganism and have been a lot happier since then. But anyway my question for you guys is, Is Atheism a religion or an Ideology?
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