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Boudica Celtic Queen

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:04 pm


Nebulance
Bouidicca
Since much of the New Testament uses parables and imagery, not to mention the riddles of Revelations, I don't believe Hell is a fiery pit. I think of it more as a separation after death from God. Who knows, we all might be living in Hell right now until we get it right in some future life.


Possible, although every other parable of Jesus takes place in a completely literal setting.

EDIT: By 'possible,' I don't mean that I believe it at all, just that it is possible to rationally argue.


Literal setting meaning what? Location? Also, take the "miracle" of the loaves and fishes at the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus really make all that food out of one basket? Or was the real miracle that he got everyone to share with one another, thus feeding all that were there? I follow the latter interpretation.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:04 pm


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
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In Medias Res IV
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Obviously... rolleyes


For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23.

I just ruined your whole argument with one verse.

If you sin, you die. Hell may exist but it is not for humans. Gehenna is a real place you can go visit.


And I refer you back to the passage that I quoted from Luke (along with the two Blue quoted, which you also ignored). Hell is called 'the second death,' btw.

I think it's swell and all that you don't believe in hell, but stop lying through your teeth *ahem* telling us that OUR Scripture doesn't have any basis for it. stare


Hades =/ Hell.

I don't believe Hell exists for human beings to go to, aside from a VERY VERY small handful, like Hitler.

Atheists don't go to Hell.

I'm not sorry, in proper translation and scriptural context, no where does the NT say that people go to Hell for rejecting "Christ".


Quit modifying your argument and your position. It's not making you any more correct, and it's not a proper way to argue.


I'm not modifying a damn thing.

I do not know a single damn person who will go to hell. A "lake of fire" proves ******** all. Please explain to me how "Sheol", "Hades", and "Tartaros" are hell.

At best, the NT says that you will cease to exist, not go to hell.

It says death, not ceasing to exist (unless you can find the scripture...?).

Damn, as in they will go to Hell...? That's an oxymoron, even if you are making a point.

And does it matter if we call it Hell, or does any place of torment after death apply?

xxEverBluexx

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In Medias Res IV

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:05 pm


Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance


And I refer you back to the passage that I quoted from Luke (along with the two Blue quoted, which you also ignored). Hell is called 'the second death,' btw.

I think it's swell and all that you don't believe in hell, but stop lying through your teeth *ahem* telling us that OUR Scripture doesn't have any basis for it. stare


Hades =/ Hell.

I don't believe Hell exists for human beings to go to, aside from a VERY VERY small handful, like Hitler.

Atheists don't go to Hell.

I'm not sorry, in proper translation and scriptural context, no where does the NT say that people go to Hell for rejecting "Christ".


Quit modifying your argument and your position. It's not making you any more correct, and it's not a proper way to argue.


I'm not modifying a damn thing.

I do not know a single damn person who will go to hell. A "lake of fire" proves ******** all. Please explain to me how "Sheol", "Hades", and "Tartaros" are hell.

At best, the NT says that you will cease to exist, not go to hell.


Call it what you like. You said (before modification), a 'place of eternal fiery damnation.' The passages Blue and I quoted showed a scriptural basis for just that.


Okay, I'm not ******** around anymore.. you're really getting on my nerves.

Boxy
Hell – Do You Know What the Hell It Is?

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The Valley of Hinnom, a place-name often translated as "Hell" in the New Testament.


"Hell" is the stuff of nightmares: burning in sulfur, pitchforks and demons, the whole "eternal damnation" deal. However, such symbology is conspicuously absent from actual reference in the original text - except the "lake of fire", which I'll touch on briefly.

Three words have been translated as "Hell" in most English Bibles - Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus - all of which are specific theological constructs rather than euphuisms for a Satan-run prison-house.

Now, to get down to the nitty-gritty: what were Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, respectively?

Hades
Hades is a lovely Greek word meaning roughly “hidden,” as in the “hidden world,” or “the world of spirits.” In Greek thought, it meant the underworld – no, not burning and eternal damnation. It was where all people went when they died – the good, the bad, and even the ugly (woah, Polyphemus! Back into the cave!)

Theoi.com, a wellspring of information on Greek thought and myth, has this to say in regards to Hades:

Theoi.com
In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.
http://theoi.com/Kosmos/Haides.html


A truly dismal place indeed. However, it is a necessary construction by those trying to figure out where our souls go once we die. The notion that the good people immediately (and note the use of “immediately”) go to heaven and the bad go immediately to hell is rather new. The Hebrews, those good ol’ writers of the Old Testament, had the very same idea, and called it Sheol. The Norse named their overall afterlife Hel, where we got the modern term. All of these, interestingly enough, mean “hidden.”

The Christians didn’t just ignore this idea and come up with a whole new idea about the afterlife, mind you. Josephus, a Jewish scholar of the 1st century (that’s around the time of Christ, for those of you who aren’t into the whole calendar thing) recorded the Christian notion of the afterlife:

Flavius Josephus
Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; … This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone’s behavior and manners.

This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead …
(Josephus, Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades, 1, 5)


Amazingly enough, Josephus actually refers to a part of Hades where the righteous are rewarded! This is called by Josephus the “Bosom of Abraham,” a term referred to by Christ (Luke 16:22-23). Granted, the word translated as “Hell” in verse 23 is Hades, Abraham’s Bosom is set off from the rest of Hades.

But wait – didn’t Christ say something about burning in a lake of fire or something? This is the second term to discuss – Gehenna, or the “lake of fire and brimstone.”

Gehenna
First things first – where did the word Gehenna come from, anyway? The word itself is a compound word pulled from Hebrew into Greek which means “The Valley of the Son of Hinnom.” This particular valley is on the southern outskirts of Jerusalem, and was famous for being used in the past first as a trash heap where garbage was burnt, and later as an altar to sacrifice babies to the false god Molech.

You heard me. Baby sacrifices. To a heathen god. No wonder these people get the burnination.

Bible, King James Version
And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
(Jeremiah 32:35, KJV)


Gehenna was by far the term that Christ himself used. Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!

However, who is eligible to go to Gehenna? Certainly, a large amount of who are classically labeled as “wicked” will be thrust into Gehenna; but we also must acknowledge that Gehenna is not always a permanent state of being. The Jewish Encyclopedia has an excellent description of people who are very likely to enter into the lake of fire:

The Jewish Encyclopedia
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell [Gehenna] immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). … They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). …

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ('Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). …
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G


A good summary is this: those who violate basic personal and property rights (murder, robbery, theft), who violate contracts (adulterers, oath-breakers), or who misrepresent the truth (scam artists, habitual liars, hypocrites) are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the hot seat. However, not all sins are punished equally, and war criminals are likely to spend a very long time thinking about their own human frailties. So, think of it as a cosmic time-out box, with different punishments for different crimes.

But wait a second – where’s this Satan character fit into this thing? I thought he was supposed to be in charge of the whole operation, wasn’t he? Oh, but there’s still one more concept to touch on – Tartarus.

Tartarus
So, starting off with the definition once again: what is Tartarus? Well, it’s a Greek term for a part of the underworld. In Greek thought, it equaled roughly Gehenna, as described about. Quoting Theoi.com once more,

Theoi.com
TARTAROS was the prison of the damned, a region in Haides where the souls of wicked men were condemned by the Judges of the Dead to an period of enforced purgatory, or, for the truly unredeemable, to eternal damnation.
http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros2.html


Now, here we have an interesting connotation to explore: “the truly unredeemable, [experiencing] eternal damnation.” Doesn’t that sound familiar? Yet, it’s the same place – only with two different levels of punishment!

The first point to note in relating this to Christianity is that Tartarus is only referred to explicitly once in the texts – by Peter, in describing the location of “sinning angels” (sound like Satan, anyone?)

Bible, King James Version
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(II Peter 2:4, KJV)


Now, the notion that Tartarus is a place to hold prisoners until judgment is a well-established thought, and is found also in the phrase “Gehenna.” However, as Peter was writing primarily to Gentiles, they were unlikely to know about a particular phrase referring to a trash-heap in Jerusalem, so he used the generic Greek phrase Tartarus.

But what of the ultimate destiny of the people in Gehenna/Tartarus? Of that we can read in the book of Revelation (if we may for a moment again humor the scriptures):

Bible, King James Version
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev. 20:13-15, KJV)


Ultimately, those who remain in Gehenna/Tartarus at the judgment – namely, those who were too sinful to escape from the lake of fire in a reasonable timeframe – are doomed to wallow in their sins forever.

The Greeks imagined some pretty good examples: men who chopped up their own children and served them to guests, serial rapists, and so forth. Christians envisioned Satan, the father of lies and of all sin, as ending up there. If I may be so presumptuous as to judge one’s righteousness, I would reckon that Hitler has little chance of escaping this second death.

Sadistic bastards get a sadistic b*****d’s punishment. For wholly selling their humanity for the pride of the world, they receive what little of the world is left: death and destruction.

Conclusion
The ancients had a much better grasp of these things than we do. The system as originally envisioned by Christ and others allowed for justice to be pursued, without needlessly condemning those who commit finite sins to an infinite purpose. Remember, folks, although the flame and its consequences may be everlasting, the duration of punishment is not.

Go to hell? Sure, but I’m taking you to Hades with me.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:09 pm


xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance


And I refer you back to the passage that I quoted from Luke (along with the two Blue quoted, which you also ignored). Hell is called 'the second death,' btw.

I think it's swell and all that you don't believe in hell, but stop lying through your teeth *ahem* telling us that OUR Scripture doesn't have any basis for it. stare


Hades =/ Hell.

I don't believe Hell exists for human beings to go to, aside from a VERY VERY small handful, like Hitler.

Atheists don't go to Hell.

I'm not sorry, in proper translation and scriptural context, no where does the NT say that people go to Hell for rejecting "Christ".


Quit modifying your argument and your position. It's not making you any more correct, and it's not a proper way to argue.


I'm not modifying a damn thing.

I do not know a single damn person who will go to hell. A "lake of fire" proves ******** all. Please explain to me how "Sheol", "Hades", and "Tartaros" are hell.

At best, the NT says that you will cease to exist, not go to hell.

It says death, not ceasing to exist (unless you can find the scripture...?).

Damn, as in they will go to Hell...? That's an oxymoron, even if you are making a point.

And does it matter if we call it Hell, or does any place of torment after death apply?


Why would you believe that you would be tormented after death after enduring a life of pain and suffering? Shouldn't we all be inclined to believe that once we die, we go off somewhere better?

"Ceasing to exist" could mean once people stop remembering you, once all the memories of you die out...is that hell? Or no?

Shmearwhiz


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:09 pm


Bouidicca
Nebulance
Bouidicca
Since much of the New Testament uses parables and imagery, not to mention the riddles of Revelations, I don't believe Hell is a fiery pit. I think of it more as a separation after death from God. Who knows, we all might be living in Hell right now until we get it right in some future life.


Possible, although every other parable of Jesus takes place in a completely literal setting.

EDIT: By 'possible,' I don't mean that I believe it at all, just that it is possible to rationally argue.


Literal setting meaning what? Location? Also, take the "miracle" of the loaves and fishes at the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus really make all that food out of one basket? Or was the real miracle that he got everyone to share with one another, thus feeding all that were there? I follow the latter interpretation.


Most of Jesus' parables were told as taking place in everyday settings. Why would He make up a deceptive alternate reality in which to tell this one parable?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:10 pm


Yeah, give me a minute to read all of that...

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:23 pm


Quote:
Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!


Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


That takes care of linking the fire with the Hades, and since your article states Tartarus is just 'a region in Hades,' it looks like we're finished.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:24 pm


Nebulance
Bouidicca
Nebulance
Bouidicca
Since much of the New Testament uses parables and imagery, not to mention the riddles of Revelations, I don't believe Hell is a fiery pit. I think of it more as a separation after death from God. Who knows, we all might be living in Hell right now until we get it right in some future life.


Possible, although every other parable of Jesus takes place in a completely literal setting.

EDIT: By 'possible,' I don't mean that I believe it at all, just that it is possible to rationally argue.


Literal setting meaning what? Location? Also, take the "miracle" of the loaves and fishes at the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus really make all that food out of one basket? Or was the real miracle that he got everyone to share with one another, thus feeding all that were there? I follow the latter interpretation.


Most of Jesus' parables were told as taking place in everyday settings. Why would He make up a deceptive alternate reality in which to tell this one parable?


I was just clarifying the literal setting, not questioning the location's existence.

Boudica Celtic Queen

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xxEverBluexx

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:38 pm


Shmearwhiz
xxEternallyBluexx
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance


And I refer you back to the passage that I quoted from Luke (along with the two Blue quoted, which you also ignored). Hell is called 'the second death,' btw.

I think it's swell and all that you don't believe in hell, but stop lying through your teeth *ahem* telling us that OUR Scripture doesn't have any basis for it. stare


Hades =/ Hell.

I don't believe Hell exists for human beings to go to, aside from a VERY VERY small handful, like Hitler.

Atheists don't go to Hell.

I'm not sorry, in proper translation and scriptural context, no where does the NT say that people go to Hell for rejecting "Christ".


Quit modifying your argument and your position. It's not making you any more correct, and it's not a proper way to argue.


I'm not modifying a damn thing.

I do not know a single damn person who will go to hell. A "lake of fire" proves ******** all. Please explain to me how "Sheol", "Hades", and "Tartaros" are hell.

At best, the NT says that you will cease to exist, not go to hell.

It says death, not ceasing to exist (unless you can find the scripture...?).

Damn, as in they will go to Hell...? That's an oxymoron, even if you are making a point.

And does it matter if we call it Hell, or does any place of torment after death apply?


Why would you believe that you would be tormented after death after enduring a life of pain and suffering? Shouldn't we all be inclined to believe that once we die, we go off somewhere better?

"Ceasing to exist" could mean once people stop remembering you, once all the memories of you die out...is that hell? Or no?

I don't believe I will be. Jesus has saved me. I hate that other people will be (I used to be one of those little kids who was terrified of Hell. It wasn't abuse, though maybe the focal point for teaching young Christian kids shouldn't be Hell, if it can be helped.) It's the people's choice though. I understand what you're saying, but there's nothing to be done for it except to tell anyone who will hear the Gospel. I believe there's a Hell, so i want to see as few people there as possible.

But it still says 'death' not ceasing to exist in the Bible. That's what I was pointing out.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:02 pm


Nebulance
Quote:
Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!


Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


That takes care of linking the fire with the Hades, and since your article states Tartarus is just 'a region in Hades,' it looks like we're finished.


Okay, now where is the "Those who sin will end up in Hell"?

In Medias Res IV


quietstorm 2

Clean Member

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:03 pm


In Medias Res IV
Hell should not be taught, at all. The only reason for Hell in Christianity is the fear tactic. This place of eternal fiery damnation has absolutely no scriptural basis. No where in the Bible will you find "Sinners go to Hell", it's an idea that Dante came up with, and Milton. Such a stupid teaching.

Fear G0d and you won't go to Hell!

How about love G-d and be a good person?

An atheist who is a good person is more righteous than a religious person who is a complete and utter a*****e.


I absolutely agree with you about love GOD and be a good person, however one should be taught about the consequences of doing the opposite. To Love him is have a relationship with him.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:10 pm


quietstorm 2
In Medias Res IV
Hell should not be taught, at all. The only reason for Hell in Christianity is the fear tactic. This place of eternal fiery damnation has absolutely no scriptural basis. No where in the Bible will you find "Sinners go to Hell", it's an idea that Dante came up with, and Milton. Such a stupid teaching.

Fear G0d and you won't go to Hell!

How about love G-d and be a good person?

An atheist who is a good person is more righteous than a religious person who is a complete and utter a*****e.


I absolutely agree with you about love GOD and be a good person, however one should be taught about the consequences of doing the opposite. To Love him is have a relationship with him.


hell is nothing but living here on Earth without a relationship with G-d. It's not a place, it's a state of mind and being.

In Medias Res IV


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:30 pm


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Quote:
Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!


Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


That takes care of linking the fire with the Hades, and since your article states Tartarus is just 'a region in Hades,' it looks like we're finished.


Okay, now where is the "Those who sin will end up in Hell"?


Those correct phrase is, "Those who are not in the Book of Life will end up in Hell," and here it is, in the context of some other relevant verses:


Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.


Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.



Yes, you could still argue that Hell is symbolic (obviously when the passage speaks of Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire it's being symbolic), but Hell is not without a Scriptural basis in the New Testament.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:35 pm


Here's another relevant passage:


"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.


Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides [his] sheep from the goats.


Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.


Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;


Mat 25:36 I [was] naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'


Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed [You], or thirsty and give [You] drink?


Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take [You] in, or naked and clothe [You]?


Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'


Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did [it] to one of the least of these My brethren, you did [it] to Me.'


Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


Mat 25:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;


Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'


Mat 25:44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


Mat 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do [it] to one of the least of these, you did not do [it] to Me.'


Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Nebulance

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