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 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:14 pm
I can attest by way of my studies to the irreparable damage wrought by the mission-inspired condemnation of prophylactic use among native populations.
I'm confident everyone here is disgusted to the depth of their heart to know that in an area so devestated by AIDS as subSaharan Africa, missionaries are warning against the only way we can effectively stop the virus. Adults of reproductive age are nearly gone in many areas. The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans is on their ******** hands.
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:54 pm
hachimitsugirl I can attest by way of my studies to the irreparable damage wrought by the mission-inspired condemnation of prophylactic use among native populations.
I'm confident everyone here is disgusted to the depth of their heart to know that in an area so devestated by AIDS as subSaharan Africa, missionaries are warning against the only way we can effectively stop the virus. Adults of reproductive age are nearly gone in many areas. The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans is on their ******** hands. Studies? Oh really? What studies are that? I'd be interesting in what makes you believe you have done enough research and are on the grounds to say what you just have said.
It is the current Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church who tells his missionaries to go out and preach against birth-control, and safer sex methods that just happen to be able to lower the risk of transmitting the HIV virus.
Do the missionires go out and do that? Do they go out preaching what the Vatican says about that topic? The hell they don't...you know why? They know and understand what the current Vatican and those before him don't get...the only way to remedy the problem is to resort to the very things that they are supposed to be against.
So I applaud those individuals who choose to go against the Vatican, those missionaries who secretly preach thier own vendetta where Africans must learn to use and accept birth-control. As it is now though, an African woman can get stoned to death for asking her husband to use a condom, and not only that many who ask for thier husbands to practice safer sex practices with them end up getting beaten. It's socially acceptable... stare
It's not as though they have a choice to close thier legs...because Africa isn't exactly America. Women doesn't have the right to say no because of thier culture.
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:58 pm
Excuse me! We are mearly stating that no one should say "You can't use birth control becuase I don't belive in it." Also that missionaries often but not always do more harm then good. Its great to go and help where you can but to preach that you won't help till the 'bararians' covert it what pisses me off.
You know nothing of history if you think the aids in africa means anything.
The work the missionaries are doing there are as well as can be expected and it is a thankless job.
I know I've worked as a missonary. Have you? I've spent a month in the most radiated city in the world. Have you even heard of it? I worked on a ophanage for childeren who are un adoptable. I would go back and do it again wheather I belive in god or not. We didn't preach or hand out bibles. We remodled dormitories bought and installed doors, tolets, and heaters.
What do you know of the world? I've done mission work here in america in the appilatian mountians, in soup kitchens, and such. I may not be a christian but they are more then happy to have an extra pair of hands. I wanty more then anything to work with opperation smiles, and to go back to Russian Inisaitive. So before tell me how the world works go do some good and then mabie you'll have the grounds to talk.
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:01 pm
I guess this is mostly at sangu. I think banryuu seems to be saying there might be missionaries that help and some that don't.
Anyways.
Are you saying that all missionaries are actually teaching safe sex practices? No one preaches against it?
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:06 pm
c a u s t i c I guess this is mostly at sangu. I think banryuu seems to be saying there might be missionaries that help and some that don't. Anyways. Are you saying that all missionaries are actually teaching safe sex practices? No one preaches against it? No...Hmmm...many people have a misguided idea that all missionaries from the Roman Catholic Church follow what the Vatican says to the dot...especially when it comes to the birth control thing in Africa.
So many people do get incensed...because they suddenly think "OMG? Are you kidding? All the missionaries tell Africans to not practice safe sex...blah...blah...blah...rant...rant...rant."
I'm just saying that not all the missionaries follow the Vatican on that issue because some of them realize where they stand. I don't remember where I read it...was it in the New York Times? It was something passing where missionaries got excommunicated becasue they were caught telling Africans to use safe sex in order to prevent the spread of HIV.
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:14 pm
But aside form a few anomalies, most missionaries do teach an anti-condom mentality, so it is a fair generalization, ne?
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:48 am
Sanguvixen hachimitsugirl I can attest by way of my studies to the irreparable damage wrought by the mission-inspired condemnation of prophylactic use among native populations.
I'm confident everyone here is disgusted to the depth of their heart to know that in an area so devestated by AIDS as subSaharan Africa, missionaries are warning against the only way we can effectively stop the virus. Adults of reproductive age are nearly gone in many areas. The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans is on their ******** hands. Studies? Oh really? What studies are that? I'd be interesting in what makes you believe you have done enough research and are on the grounds to say what you just have said.
It is the current Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church who tells his missionaries to go out and preach against birth-control, and safer sex methods that just happen to be able to lower the risk of transmitting the HIV virus.
Do the missionires go out and do that? Do they go out preaching what the Vatican says about that topic? The hell they don't...you know why? They know and understand what the current Vatican and those before him don't get...the only way to remedy the problem is to resort to the very things that they are supposed to be against.
So I applaud those individuals who choose to go against the Vatican, those missionaries who secretly preach thier own vendetta where Africans must learn to use and accept birth-control. As it is now though, an African woman can get stoned to death for asking her husband to use a condom, and not only that many who ask for thier husbands to practice safer sex practices with them end up getting beaten. It's socially acceptable... stare
It's not as though they have a choice to close thier legs...because Africa isn't exactly America. Women doesn't have the right to say no because of thier culture.
And as for the rest of your tirade - It's a mess and I don't see your point in the slightest. Please elaborate if you can manage to get yourself together.
p.s. I can forgive you for attempting to inform me about "culture." Whether or not you realize, I need no instruction from you on the matter.
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:26 pm
banryuu Excuse me! We are mearly stating that no one should say "You can't use birth control becuase I don't belive in it." Also that missionaries often but not always do more harm then good. Its great to go and help where you can but to preach that you won't help till the 'bararians' covert it what pisses me off. You know nothing of history if you think the aids in africa means anything. The work the missionaries are doing there are as well as can be expected and it is a thankless job. I know I've worked as a missonary. Have you? I've spent a month in the most radiated city in the world. Have you even heard of it? I worked on a ophanage for childeren who are un adoptable. I would go back and do it again wheather I belive in god or not. We didn't preach or hand out bibles. We remodled dormitories bought and installed doors, tolets, and heaters. What do you know of the world? I've done mission work here in america in the appilatian mountians, in soup kitchens, and such. I may not be a christian but they are more then happy to have an extra pair of hands. I wanty more then anything to work with opperation smiles, and to go back to Russian Inisaitive. So before tell me how the world works go do some good and then mabie you'll have the grounds to talk.
After skimming over your "response," I'll simply say that I know very well how the world works. We anthropologists attempt to un-do the cultural damage of missionaries, among other things - I consider that to be the highest of good works. Please, sincerely accept a virtual pat on the back from me for your deeds. However, you make it a point that your work was secular in nature and, as the discussion is centered on religion's impact upon reproductive health, how is it that your experience counters mine in the least?
I'm baffled (among other things) by your oddly worded: "You know nothing of history if you think the aids in africa means anything" I know much of history. I wouldn't be where I am in my studies if I didn't. I also am curious if you're prepared to look a child orphaned by AIDS in the eyes and tell them that AIDS in Africa doesn't mean anything. Of course, I'm hoping you don't really mean that.
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:33 am
Look....Anthroplogy is the study of the human race, not a crusade on those select missionaries that are long dead which put things wrong in different parts of the world before you were ever born, and before you parents or grandparents were even born.
If someone once being a missionary, or working with missionaries in Russia and in the US is irrelevent to this thread...than your part about being into Anthropology is irrelevent in this thread, and the Theism VS Atheism thread. So either stop being pretentious, admit that you are not the only one with experience and knowledge in these things, or get out.
That said....
This isn't the right forum? How about you drop it? In this day and age having a degree meanings nothing unless you are trying to get a job. Having credentials doesn't make your opinions or ideas right, or absolute. It means nothing, okay? It'll be nice when you figure that out.
You posted this and that about missionaries being this and that, and people came in to point out a few things that go against what you feel or believe. You don't have to get condencending, or point out "I have College Cred" everytime someone disagrees with you. Maybe you realize it maybe you don't, but you've got a condescending attitude, and you're more pretentious than I'll ever be. Your attitude alone is off-puting to some, and insulting to others. Being new to this guild is no excuse...plenty of newbies know how to post without coming across as pretentious and snooty.
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:46 am
Quote: I'm confident everyone here is disgusted to the depth of their heart to know that in an area so devestated by AIDS as subSaharan Africa, missionaries are warning against the only way we can effectively stop the virus. Adults of reproductive age are nearly gone in many areas. Actually, not everyone is disgusted in the same way as you. It's because we realize (some of us) that the bulk of many problems in many impoverished areas comes down to culture. It's not about Missionaries, or what they preach...but about what ideals and values are within a culture that conflict in what is being told to them.
You are disgusted...by missionaries who preach against the only cure for AIDS when it comes to Africa? Well I am too...by the individuals who do that...but since not all individuals who are missionaries are so blind as to preach death to Africans in the form of "Don't use safe-sex practices or condoms" I'm not going to make a generalization and get hissy about it.
Before anyone can address the issue in Africa the first issue that has to be addressed in Culture. Yeah, I've read about things that make me very angry and disgusted. A woman in Africa asked her husband to use a condom, and ended up being severely beaten, her face disfigured, and was thrown out onto the street to be further beaten by his family.
Another one asked her husband to get an HIV test before they became intimate and ended up being stoned to death. So in my eyes, the problem in Africa has nothing to do with missionaries, and more to do with rejecting certain things that we here in America hold true to, including women as individuals (no property). Missionaries are not what cause African men to beat their wives for wanting to use safe-sex practices....culture and social norms are. Since many women are terrified to ask or use the very practices that will save them from HIV, the amount of Orphans who lost parents to AIDS, and the amount of children then dying of AIDS will not change, but continue to grow. That is regardless of what Missionaries preach.
That said, I think you are only looking at one small aspect of a big picture, so don't forgive me for trying to inform you that there are peices of the puzzle that still need to be painted in, be thankful. Quote: The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans is on their ******** hands. The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans are on the hands of many, including those who perpetuate certain cultural ideas that started in Africa and didn't migrate in from anywhere outside the continent. Quote: I can attest by way of my studies to the irreparable damage wrought by the mission-inspired condemnation of prophylactic use among native populations. Don't bring this up again. No one cares about you being into the study of humans and thier history, because apparently someone who has been on the side-lines of missionaries and seen both the bad work and good work they do isn't relevent either (according to your logic.)
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:48 am
Part of the problem is that the funding for various missionaries depends on what they are preaching. The vatican (catholic charities tend to follow thier line) and the US, two of the largest groups sending aid money, favour those groups that follow their line of ethics. i.e. the christian line that condoms are "bad".
Not all of course, but priority is given to those. This has led to a rise in HIV infection rates in some areas where it used to be in retreat, now it's moving foreward again, as funding for condom use is falling.
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:58 am
Redem Part of the problem is that the funding for various missionaries depends on what they are preaching. The vatican (catholic charities tend to follow thier line) and the US, two of the largest groups sending aid money, favour those groups that follow their line of ethics. i.e. the christian line that condoms are "bad". Not all of course, but priority is given to those. This has led to a rise in HIV infection rates in some areas where it used to be in retreat, now it's moving foreward again, as funding for condom use is falling. Funding is a problem too...but look what happens to those individuals who preach good things for the sake of really saving lives...they get excommunicated, told to shut up, or intimidated into silence.
Part of the problem comes down to the missionaries and who is getting what funding. Part of the other problem is culture, and if you can't take both into consideration you won't get far into instigating change.
Then again what really annoys me is how some theistic groups don't offer long term solutions. They offer short-term solutions in exchange for flock...and that bothers me. Because after the short-term solution wears off you end up with an ever worse problem then before.
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:37 pm
Sanguvixen Quote: I'm confident everyone here is disgusted to the depth of their heart to know that in an area so devestated by AIDS as subSaharan Africa, missionaries are warning against the only way we can effectively stop the virus. Adults of reproductive age are nearly gone in many areas. Actually, not everyone is disgusted in the same way as you. It's because we realize (some of us) that the bulk of many problems in many impoverished areas comes down to culture. It's not about Missionaries, or what they preach...but about what ideals and values are within a culture that conflict in what is being told to them.
You are disgusted...by missionaries who preach against the only cure for AIDS when it comes to Africa? Well I am too...by the individuals who do that...but since not all individuals who are missionaries are so blind as to preach death to Africans in the form of "Don't use safe-sex practices or condoms" I'm not going to make a generalization and get hissy about it.
Before anyone can address the issue in Africa the first issue that has to be addressed in Culture. Yeah, I've read about things that make me very angry and disgusted. A woman in Africa asked her husband to use a condom, and ended up being severely beaten, her face disfigured, and was thrown out onto the street to be further beaten by his family.
Another one asked her husband to get an HIV test before they became intimate and ended up being stoned to death. So in my eyes, the problem in Africa has nothing to do with missionaries, and more to do with rejecting certain things that we here in America hold true to, including women as individuals (no property). Missionaries are not what cause African men to beat their wives for wanting to use safe-sex practices....culture and social norms are. Since many women are terrified to ask or use the very practices that will save them from HIV, the amount of Orphans who lost parents to AIDS, and the amount of children then dying of AIDS will not change, but continue to grow. That is regardless of what Missionaries preach.
That said, I think you are only looking at one small aspect of a big picture, so don't forgive me for trying to inform you that there are peices of the puzzle that still need to be painted in, be thankful. Quote: The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans is on their ******** hands. The blood of the dead parents and dying orphans are on the hands of many, including those who perpetuate certain cultural ideas that started in Africa and didn't migrate in from anywhere outside the continent. Quote: I can attest by way of my studies to the irreparable damage wrought by the mission-inspired condemnation of prophylactic use among native populations. Don't bring this up again. No one cares about you being into the study of humans and thier history, because apparently someone who has been on the side-lines of missionaries and seen both the bad work and good work they do isn't relevent either (according to your logic.)
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:05 pm
Intellectual Jealousy? Look if it makes you happy deluding yourself into thinking I feel that way go right on ahead, because I really don't care. I'm a bit too old to care about those who make themselves more then they actually are on the internet.
When it comes to the part where that kind of misguided arrogence ends up creating problems...then I'll care.
Bottom line is there is a bigger picture, and you may have part of the puzzle, but there are still peices missing in that jigsaw. Go find them.
Sitting at a desk reading text is nothing next to going out into the world to try to affect change and help people who really need it, especially when the plan on how to help works because the group did thier research. You could learn quite a lot from quite a few people in this thread if you took the time to listen.
Somebody in this thread, and it's not you went down to Russia to help a run-down orphanage. You see, because of the way the gov't is set up what funding come in has nothing to do with how many kids are in the orphange and everything to do the facilities....and a run down building means very little funding. They didn't go there to preach, and the kids weren't even there during construction. After they finished...that place got more funding from the Russian gov't because of the improvements that were made. The children were actually able to go to a real camp that wasn't littered with trash and filthy...because of them.
Religious or not...that group affected change, and they didn't go around spouting thier religion, they just happened to use the funds from church to help this orphanage reach it's full potential and research the place to figure out how to really help them help themselves. I find that kind of activity to be very...applaudable.
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:27 am
Thank you sangu I think I'm getting teary-eyed.
Most missionaries now do good work.
In the past they did terible things thinking that their way was the only way. China was far from a christian country and when the europen people went to 'colonize' they beleived the barbarians couldn't live or find savation without them. The people didn't understand the missionaries and may people died. I hate the missionarys that go into a place thinking it backwards and try to tear apart the culture and rebuild it into what they consider a proper socity. China had a working civilization thousands of years. What do they have now? Communism.
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