|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:16 pm
Quote: Yeah, I get the Whole Anti-Climactic thing, and the Time Window; I was arguing that Aeris May have not necessarily needed to die to Summon Holy, although it did happen, that it still might not have been required =P Yeah, but...I don't know where. But somewhere in the game I distinctly heard them say that she DID need to pass to the LifeStream in order to activate the prayer. When they showed the White Materia on the projector in the City of the Ancients, it showed it white, then it started glowing green. That meant that the prayer was activated. And besides, remember what happened to Cloud last time he fell in the Life Stream? Yeah, its doubtful that Aeris would come out alive if she did just throw herself into one. Quote: Alright, yeah, I'll take that; JENOVA was also on the Planet when Meteor Appeared though, and even took the Final(?) form of "SYNTHESIS" during the Raid on the North Crater. Also, a Point in your favor, regrettably, would be that a good number of those people died of Illness, and not from Summoning Holy. Yeah...cause I believe back then that back then, it said that everybody was Cetra, but some of the clans decided to stray from the true path of the Cetra. Jenova infected the planet entirely and started to kill off the races. So, the Cetra numbers were also reduced massively due to the rift in beliefs at this time, making it an even smaller race to use as the sacrifice. Quote: Yeah, But He also Resended that Argument, And, As I recall, Noted that JENOVA was not a Cetra, and Was not his mother, at some time in the game. I think this was Near the Time of Aeris' Death, though I may be wrong. If So, His Re-direction on the issue would mean that he did, in fact, know of JENOVA, the Cetra, and Holy. True, but as he resended the arguement, he also started to try and kill Aeris. So, he might not of thought of them as a threat. Then when he finally realized it, he started attacking her using Cloud. I don't know why he would kill her on the alter if he knew it would summon Holy. Maybe he didn't think Cloud would be able to move him from blocking it. ~~~ Very very true. XD
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:51 pm
Dread Lycan Yeah, but...I don't know where. But somewhere in the game I distinctly heard them say that she DID need to pass to the LifeStream in order to activate the prayer. When they showed the White Materia on the projector in the City of the Ancients, it showed it white, then it started glowing green. That meant that the prayer was activated. I have many a counter to your other points, but I'm tired so I'll just deal with this one. I believe the bit of dialog your refering to is this... Bugenhagen: "Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves." This is the only line that I can think for that even glimmers closely to what you are saying. However, the concept of the soul must reach the planet through death is debunked with the the rest of the dialog. Cloud: "Even us!?" Bugenhagen: "It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?" Cloud: "Search for Holy... How do we do it?" Bugenhagen: "Speak to the planet. Get the White Materia... This will bond the Planet to humans. Then speak to the planet. If our wish reaches the planet, the White Materia will begin to glow a pale green." Cloud: "...This is the end. Aerith had the White Materia... But when Aerith died, it fell from the altar... That's why...... this is the end." This dialog points to the conclusion that the power of the white materia is what bonds the soul to the planet. Then, through request the Planet delivers Holy as weapon. Sort of an asking god to smite your enemies type of thing. This also helps explain why Sephiroth was able to hold Holy back. His goal was basically to absorb Lifestream to become a sort of god. Lifestream is the planet's blood and being so immursed within the planet itself could more than likely give him such power. Also, the projection showed was just Aeris' death scene with an extra shot of the materia at the bottem of the water. And as you can see from here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luwWm8FeX8A is never white. I can see where at some points a may get that impression... but if you were to ever become as obsessed with her death as I was when I was 16; you would zoom in on the materia and watch the scene frame by frame you would see that it starts pale green, and as it moves light gleams off it almost making it look white, and then ends again as pale green. I'm sorry, but to me, the concept of Aeris HAVING to die to summon Holy is just fandom glorification of the character to make it so that could tack the word martyr(One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a religious belief, cause, or principle.) to her.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:06 pm
~raises hand~ As a matter of fact, I was obssessed when I was younger. More or less for Aeris than her actual death, but thats beside the point.
First, it doesn't matter what color the Materia is when she dropped it, because she had already prayed and the wish was granted. This meaning sometime, whether it was before or after it sank to the bottom of the lake, it turned bright green.
And second, it doesn't matter wether she NEEDED to die in order to make Holy work, the fact is that she KNEW she was going to die, whether she needed to or not. This in itself makes a martyr out of her, not by us fanboys, or by some guy attempting to make her out to be a hero, but by her actions. I myself was not trying to make her a martyr in anyway shape or form. You saying that I was is just ammo against me to try and turn the tide of the debate in your favor.
I was only trying to figure out, as well as everyone else who I was debating with, whether she needed to die to make Holy work. If she didn't, cool beans. If she did, then she got the job done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:27 pm
Put the flaming sword down lad.
I simply replied to the exact words you used in your statemant. I referenced those points because you claimed to have seen thus in the game. And debates do often if always involve attempting to turn the path to your favor. In fact, I believe thus is the point of debating. Only when spoken out of anger does it cross the line of arguing. I don't recall showing any of my claws.
If my statement of the issue of martyrdom offended you I do apologise. I used such as a reference as to where I see the believe to have come from which is why I also used the dictionary term for martyr.
Aeris is by far my favorite character perhaps in any story I have come to hear. Though Aeris knowing she would die is not fact... it is spectulation. I think her as a hero, but if going by the dictionary defination of martyr... no, she is not one for her death was not for religious beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:14 pm
^_^ No, I'm just really get into debates.
But, what I'm getting at is this. Neo, from the Matrix was considered a martyr for sacrificing himself to cause the war between the machines and humans to stop. This isn't a religious reference, but he still holds the title.
I was just a little heated, because you said it as if I was saying it solely to make Aeris look like a hero, when in fact she is one without my help. (No matter how many Tifa fangirls want her dead). I was pressing the point that she didn't need my help to gain martyr status. I don't know for sure...because I don't have the game to prove it, nor do I have a faq telling me the lines from the game. But again, I believe she said something in the sleeping forest about her not coming back, then Cloud started chasing her. But, even without her saying that, there was no possible way she could have NOT known that she was going to die. She said goodbye to Cloud, and she even left so they couldn't follow her, for reasons of her own, but I believe it had something to do with her not wanting Cloud around when she died.
It may not be a fact, but I think everybody hear will agree with me when I say that she didn't have a look of shock on her face when Sephiroth impaled her.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:42 pm
The Matrix does get into religious symbolism and metaphors however.
That's a different decussion though.
I don't have a faq either. I've just played the game that much. sweatdrop And actually she says the exact opposite in the Sleeping Forest.
Aeris: "I'll be back when it's all over."
I think it was very possible. Honestly, I see more evidence pointing to that she thought she thought she was safe in the City from Sephiroth; since it only opens for Cetra or those with the Lunar Harp.
Really? No one? I thought she looked quite shocked. Widened eyes and gaped mouth typically equals shock to some of us crazies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:58 pm
Twindream Hmm....you have an interesting perception on this...though, I must point out that one of your facts are incorrect. In order for Holy to work, Aeris didn't need to die since she already summoned Holy by praying for it. The only thing she did when she died was summon up the lifestream to block both holy and meteor. Sephiroth obviously didn't want anyone stopping his meteor. I think Sephy did want to fight Cloud...but he also wanted to take over the planet. Though, I like your opinion about how Sephiroth wants to kill everyone but the main group. That might actually be true. I think the same thing as Twindream. But I still like the perception you on it too. cool
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:47 pm
I'm pretty sure Aeris was smiling until the end. And she didn't have much of a Reaction to Sephiroth, except to die. No promises though, until I finish replaying that part again.
Still the Chances of Aeris Knowing or Not Knowing that she was going to die, are drifting on suggestion's in one scene in the Sleeping forest, That are unable hold and fortify any actual argument against another.
As for the Terror of Sephiroth Coming down Upon her, I'd say it's possible she didn't even know He was there. I mean, God, Cloud was in front of her for the entire time of Sephiroth's Descent, and Neither he nor the Party members went for the Save. So if none of the people who would have had a good view of Sephiroth before he struck, Couldn't see him, then how could the victim, of whom Sephiroth was Directly above...
But I feel it's getting off-topic, What with Aeris becoming the center of discussion and all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:28 pm
As I said. I have no idea what was said in the sleeping forest because my memory is horrible. x_X But, if that is what was said then I have to give this one to you. But, I will leave with saying that summoning Holy wouldn't have made "it all over". After all, there was still Sephiroth, there was still Shinra, and there was still the planet dying. "When its all over" would have been long after she said the prayer and left the city.
Well, Cloud did see Sephiroth coming. He was just too horrified, or to surprised by it to move. Me? I would have been all over him in an instant. Speared him out of the air if you would. But thats just me. How is it possible that someone with as much spiritual connection as Aeris would have not known that an evil as great as Sephiroth (with Jenova cells in him I might add) was lingering around such a pure city as the City of the Ancients? And the look on her face, you don't expect her to keep a placid expression when getting stabbed through the back do you? You get stabbed, of course your eyes widen. But her, even after she got stabbed, she was still smiling as she closed her eyes. If there is one moment that I remember play for play, its this one. I played the game hundreds of times, and had to watch this over and over again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:01 pm
Mmmm....I agree with you lot, but I just finished playing her death scene 5 minutes ago. Her eyes widened, her smile faded and a look of pure horror etched 'cross her paling features. A faint smile came on her face as she bobbed her head to let loose her hair because she accepted death, and felt relieved from the pain Sephiroth obviously caused her. I mean, from that angle it was possible he cut straight through her spinal cord.
Anyway, onto the subject of the forum, I think it's plausible Sephiroth wanted to fail. I think he had just a tiny, itty bitty sane part in him telling him to stop what he was doing. Of course, being an egoitistical man, he had to make a commotion, as well as make Jenova happy and believe he was actually following her. Thus, Meteor, prodding Cloudy on...death...yeah.
I, personally, believe he did NOT want to fail and acted, in the end, too late to stop Cloud from killing him. This is me.
As for the Sleeping Forest scene, I agree and disagree that she knew she was going to die. She kept a cheerful face and talked like she was going on a trip. "And Cloud, take care of yourself, so you don't have a breakdown. Ok?"
I believe she said "I'll come back when it's all over" because she knew she'd come back, eventually, and didn't want to worry him when or if she did, in fact, die.
This is just me, though. Disagree or agree, I don't care. I'm just liking the discussions and issues in this topic. ^ ^ heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:26 pm
Ouchies. >.< The way you said that spinal cord thing made me cringe. XD
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:23 pm
I thought it might. I also discovered an interesting detail about why there's no blood at Aerith's death, yet there's blood when you fight the final final Sephy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:56 pm
more random theorizing: since sepheroth was born with jenova cells inserted into him, he can control cloud and the other reminents, then jenova herself could logically control sepheroth. in the battle between zack and sepheroth, zack says 'no, you are not the sepheroth i know' so sepheroth made a huge change after discovering the secret in the mako reactor and studying his butt off. if jenova began to control him at that point, to manipulate his studies, considering that according to the video logs, aerith and her mother were discovered when aerith was a baby and she went out with zack before sepheroth went insane sepheroth would have access to that information, being hojo's son, what was directly shown in the game proved he had access to a very large amount of information that was classified to most people.
jenova would have been found to not be a cetra by the time he began his research, which could mean he was being controlled by jenova just like he was controlling cloud. remmember after being shown all those memories, cloud believed himself just to be an experiment and went to hojo, practically begging to be treated like an experiment. so setting up some way to fail could have been his only way to resist jenova.
in Advent children, sepheroth comes back when jenova cells united with kadage, and he was more directly evil than in the game, in the game he was just running from one place to another constantly, in AC he was out with a grudge, of course anyone would hold a grudge after being killed XD but being brought back from the life stream jenova could easily leave behind any part she did not want
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:44 pm
Amylin Dread Lycan Yeah, but...I don't know where. But somewhere in the game I distinctly heard them say that she DID need to pass to the LifeStream in order to activate the prayer. When they showed the White Materia on the projector in the City of the Ancients, it showed it white, then it started glowing green. That meant that the prayer was activated. I have many a counter to your other points, but I'm tired so I'll just deal with this one. I believe the bit of dialog your refering to is this... Bugenhagen: "Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves." This is the only line that I can think for that even glimmers closely to what you are saying. However, the concept of the soul must reach the planet through death is debunked with the the rest of the dialog. Cloud: "Even us!?" Bugenhagen: "It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?" Cloud: "Search for Holy... How do we do it?" Bugenhagen: "Speak to the planet. Get the White Materia... This will bond the Planet to humans. Then speak to the planet. If our wish reaches the planet, the White Materia will begin to glow a pale green." Cloud: "...This is the end. Aerith had the White Materia... But when Aerith died, it fell from the altar... That's why...... this is the end." This dialog points to the conclusion that the power of the white materia is what bonds the soul to the planet. Then, through request the Planet delivers Holy as weapon. Sort of an asking god to smite your enemies type of thing. This also helps explain why Sephiroth was able to hold Holy back. His goal was basically to absorb Lifestream to become a sort of god. Lifestream is the planet's blood and being so immursed within the planet itself could more than likely give him such power. Also, the projection showed was just Aeris' death scene with an extra shot of the materia at the bottem of the water. And as you can see from here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luwWm8FeX8A is never white. I can see where at some points a may get that impression... but if you were to ever become as obsessed with her death as I was when I was 16; you would zoom in on the materia and watch the scene frame by frame you would see that it starts pale green, and as it moves light gleams off it almost making it look white, and then ends again as pale green. I'm sorry, but to me, the concept of Aeris HAVING to die to summon Holy is just fandom glorification of the character to make it so that could tack the word martyr(One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a religious belief, cause, or principle.) to her.
Read it again, she didn't have to die.
Remember one of the first statements on the Ancients, or the Cetra.
"The Cetra speak to the Planet."
Remember how Aeris spoke with her mother, who was dead? And how the Planet is an entity, meaning, trees, ground, humans, everything being it?
Sephiroth's plan wasn't to destroy the Planet, and yes, to use the Meteor to cause and even bigger damage in the Planet, and when the planet would get all the Lifestream in the hurt to heal it, he would be there, to absorb it all and become a God. He said so.
Besides, Jenova came from "the skies" as a "calamity", and in the videos is commented that she came firstly as a friend, and then spread an illness, "and then" meaning she was a person. It's also commented she "changed" people... It's interesting that there are no dead people by infection with Jenova's cells, they simply go dement, while some others would become monsters, in a similar way to the Lifestream exposure.
There exist no mako pools, mako is a corresponding name to electricity, while all the glowing liquid in the reactors was Lifestream. But the term Lifestream comes later in the game, with Bugenhagen, before, it is all called Mako. "Mako is the life-blood of the planet!" Also it's used the word "planet", and not "Planet", capitalized. After meeting Bugenhagen, Mako is only but children's play.
In the flashback, Sephiroth comments to Zack that the monsters in the reactor were infused with Mako. But he knew not of the Lifestream yet. He learned of it soon afterwards, in the laboratory. Secondly, Sephiroth always had mental scars because he never knew Lucretia as a mother, he never even met her. She "died" after giving him birth, she commented later, though, that those with Jenova couldn't be so easily get ridden of. While Jenova might not have a fundamental play on talks, she might have part of the real power. Being a "son" to Jenova, Sephiroth wouldn't have power to control her, but if you look closely enough, we find Sephiroth as a human plus Jenova in complete fusion, when Kadaj merges with the Jenova Cells.
About the Cetra, with a good part of them mutating and attacking each other, as it was said in some lines in the videos, of course only a few Cetra would survive, what most with them living near the Crater, where they struggled for their lives with the environment.
Finally, as I have to take my coffee. :3
Sephiroth comments to the party, that absorbing memories and changing shape was one of Jenova's abilities, while pointing Cloud as a puppet.
But Jenova herself talked to the group after the Jenova LIFE incident, after Aeris' death. Something about puppets also, while Sephiroth was away already.
Jenova seems to be a devourer of planets, wandering the universe, infecting the life and taking it from the planet. She wasn't taken much into matters, but Sephiroth and Jenova are the same, are one, and when he calls her as Mother, he, at least I believe, is taking the term as she being the catalyst to his existance. Being part of the planet, it was easier for him to absorb the Lifestream, what seemed not to occur with Jenova, that simply mutated lifeforms.
I'd love to discuss more of this later. ^^
And hey, this is my first post in the guild! So hi!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:34 pm
Some people have a pathological need for a challenge. Maybe Sephiroth is one of them....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
