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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:56 am
Beorc Kano It is such a tricky subject that one is hard pressed to find one absolute and stick with it without casting someone to the wayside. Personally, morally, I am pro life. I treasure life and children above all else. if given a choice between saving my wife or my children in a housefire, I would save my children first. My wife is under strict instruction to do the same. Not that I have even had to say anything to that end... She is of the same mindset as me. However... Politically, I am pro choice. NOTE. Pro choice. Not pro abortion. I still abhor the concept of abortion... but I recognize the occasional necessity for it. If the child is the product of rape, incest, if the baby will be born so malformed or handicapped that their lives will be miserable and full of pain, so that they may as well hardly live, save for the fact that they breathe and eat and experience nothing but pain and sadness... in this, an abortion is a mercy. If the mother's life will be in serious jeopardy by carrying a child... in these things I can see the necessity for abortion. Sometimes life must be ended. Sometimes, it is the only logical, moral choice. I simply pray that neither the Creator nor circumstance ever put me in the position that I must choose. Ok i agree with this point-belief for the most part!
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:58 am
Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:59 am
Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin Aakosir I really do not see how it could be a female issue. Yes, women are the ones who get pregnant, but it's definitly morality that is in question. Men can choose for a woman to have an abortion, doesn't mean she will because of her morals. Thats the point Females should have the right to decide for themselves no one else! If they choose not to then its there choice and vice versa! but no one has the right to tell somewhat to do with there bodies! But i see what you mean. You're still dodging the point, and quite poorly. You're using flowery words like "With their bodies" and "Choice", magic good-words that imply freedom and happiness. What you are completely covering up is the fact that this choice is to kill a human being. It is not simply a choice to vote or a choice in what to eat or what clothes to wear- It is, specifically, the choice to kill another human being, and this is the problem. Look I am not dodging anything i see your point. I just dont feel the same way about it as you do. And a slave owner saying that it is his right to own "property" isn't dodging the fact that this property is living human beings?
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:04 am
divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Ok pleasae don't yell at me anymore you are pro-life i get that. I respect your views. I really do understand your point I just have different opinions on it is all. And thats ok! It is the Females right to decide not yours, get over yourself!
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:16 am
Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Ok pleasae don't yell at me anymore you are pro-life i get that. I respect your views. I really do understand your point I just have different opinions on it is all. And thats ok! It is the Females right to decide not yours, get over yourself! I wasn't yelling. I was using something called logic. And right now, it has crushed your argument to falling back on opinion, Which is the weakest argument possible. It is a psychopath's opinion that human life holds zero value, so murder should be legal. Get over yourself. It is a racist's opinion that black people aren't the same as white people, and they should be kept separate and enslaved. Get over yourself. It is a homophobic's opinion that gay people are sinful and deserve to die. get over yourself. I have already proven that you are ignoring the main point of the argument, and that it is not anyone's choice to kill anyone else. Again, you rely on an ad hominem and strawmen. Either learn logic or give up.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:34 am
My opinion is that it is a moral issue and it is not just about the woman. Yes, it is in the woman's body but it is a living creature on its own account. It just needs the woman's body to live for the first few months of its life. One reason I say moral issue is because, imagine that a woman is pro choice and the father is pro life (so he believes that when the child is conceived it becomes a living thing), and the woman goes and has an abortion. It can be detrimental to the father. I've known people who have broken up because of such things. Yes, I am pro life except for certain circumstances. Yes, I do believe that abortion in the 2nd or 3rd trimester should be considered murder. I think it should never be used as a form of birth control.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:40 am
I see it as more of a philosophical issue. There are too many sides to it. Too many gray areas. At the end of the day though, I think it ought to be available. divineseraph In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. Pregnancy as the result of rape is "exceedingly rare"? What universe do you live in? Maybe if you decide to base the numbers on out of the abortions preformed, but what about out of all the rapes committed in the world each day? And death due to pregnancy or childbirth is not as rare as you'd think.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:46 am
M'kay so I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you don't want a kid, USE CONTRACEPTION.
I'm not sure about America but in the UK where I live we have 13-16 year olds getting pregnant and then wondering why their scumbag of a "boyfriend" leaves them. Then, left with a baby, a ruined education and not that much brain to start with, their child gets a bad start in a life, and will probably in turn get pregnant/inpregnate a girlfriend young also. These kids that have kids leech off the state- benefits- never get a job, and end up having a load of children by different fathers.
This is not a life. Many may argue "But this is their RIGHT!" but how the hell is that a right, rather than needless population surge? So I think that anyone under the age of 23 should have an abortion. They can't handle a kid. They've not got the money, they've not got the time, they've not got the brains. It's a waste.
As for religious issues- a girl who doesn't want the baby because they can't support it or don't want it are in the right. All these figures circling on the internet that those who have an abortion regret it- lies! They wanted the abortion, and they can do all they want to before settling down and starting a family, when they have the resources to do so! Plenty of women have abortions, and I can't name one who's regretted it. Due to religious pressure media says "This is BAD" a lot, and directs women to pro-life, but it's just a tiny fetus, it's not a life. It's kinder to get rid of a barely-joined egg and sperm than to keep an unwanted child.
In the case of a rape, I think that YES you should be allowed to abort the non-child! It's a reminder of a crime, and the lowest point you could ever imagine. I myself have been sexually assaulted (not rape, just innapropriate contact) and I'm 13 frigging years old for God's sake, this is what the world has come to! Society is oversexualised and many people forget there is more to life than having 1001 kids and having it all over the place.
This may seem very angry but I'm SICK of seeing babies having babies. It's not right. They're often not ready to have sex in the first place. You may be psychically ready but certainly not emotionally or mentally.
Anyone care to disagree? I stick by this miniature essay, and you really can't convince me away from these. I don't think these are bad values.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:07 pm
Tourniquet Static M'kay so I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you don't want a kid, USE CONTRACEPTION. I'm not sure about America but in the UK where I live we have 13-16 year olds getting pregnant and then wondering why their scumbag of a "boyfriend" leaves them. Then, left with a baby, a ruined education and not that much brain to start with, their child gets a bad start in a life, and will probably in turn get pregnant/inpregnate a girlfriend young also. These kids that have kids leech off the state- benefits- never get a job, and end up having a load of children by different fathers. This is not a life. Many may argue "But this is their RIGHT!" but how the hell is that a right, rather than needless population surge? So I think that anyone under the age of 23 should have an abortion. They can't handle a kid. They've not got the money, they've not got the time, they've not got the brains. It's a waste. As for religious issues- a girl who doesn't want the baby because they can't support it or don't want it are in the right. All these figures circling on the internet that those who have an abortion regret it- lies! They wanted the abortion, and they can do all they want to before settling down and starting a family, when they have the resources to do so! Plenty of women have abortions, and I can't name one who's regretted it. Due to religious pressure media says "This is BAD" a lot, and directs women to pro-life, but it's just a tiny fetus, it's not a life. It's kinder to get rid of a barely-joined egg and sperm than to keep an unwanted child. In the case of a rape, I think that YES you should be allowed to abort the non-child! It's a reminder of a crime, and the lowest point you could ever imagine. I myself have been sexually assaulted (not rape, just innapropriate contact) and I'm 13 frigging years old for God's sake, this is what the world has come to! Society is oversexualised and many people forget there is more to life than having 1001 kids and having it all over the place. This may seem very angry but I'm SICK of seeing babies having babies. It's not right. They're often not ready to have sex in the first place. You may be psychically ready but certainly not emotionally or mentally. Anyone care to disagree? I stick by this miniature essay, and you really can't convince me away from these. I don't think these are bad values. The only problem I have with your post is the fact that contraceptives don't always work. I don't know what the percentage of abortions for failed birth control is but it is a good number. Beyond that, I agree with you completely. I'm personally of the opinion that the only time a pregnancy should be considered 'pro-choice' is during the first trimester. Second trimester abortions should only be done on a situational basis with a professional determining whether or not one is warranted, and third keep illegal. Really I don't think we should be tackling the issue of abortion so much as we should sex and sexuality, educating the masses in order to avoid having these abortions in the first place. Get to the root of the real problem, which is the unnecessary pregnancies in the first place. In the meantime, it's tricky ground to cover and it comes down to whatever a person considers the lesser of two evils.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:32 pm
divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin I believe it is a female issue! We do not have the right to tell somewhat they should do to there body, that is very personal for everyone!! Do i think people in general should be more responsible for there sexual actions yes. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. But then again what i really think doesnt matter because i am not a female and they alone reserve the right to decide what they should do with there health. For far to long women have been enslaved to the notion of shut up at do what you are told its crap! Its a females right plain and simple! just like its my right to smoke myself to death or eat myself to death! Layoff!!! And here is a prime example- I don't give a damn about YOUR health when your actions affect YOU. I DO give a damn about the lives of others- Abortion is not like eating or smoking or doing hard drugs because abortion actively kills another human being. It is therefore the death of another human being that is the point of the argument. If freedom is truly the issue, then support legalized murder, theft, slavery and rape- Because why enslave others based on morals? Why keep them from choosing a course of action a human may pick? If it does not matter if another human dies because of it, the next logical step is to legalize these things. Layoff. Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Ok pleasae don't yell at me anymore you are pro-life i get that. I respect your views. I really do understand your point I just have different opinions on it is all. And thats ok! It is the Females right to decide not yours, get over yourself! I wasn't yelling. I was using something called logic. And right now, it has crushed your argument to falling back on opinion, Which is the weakest argument possible. It is a psychopath's opinion that human life holds zero value, so murder should be legal. Get over yourself. It is a racist's opinion that black people aren't the same as white people, and they should be kept separate and enslaved. Get over yourself. It is a homophobic's opinion that gay people are sinful and deserve to die. get over yourself. I have already proven that you are ignoring the main point of the argument, and that it is not anyone's choice to kill anyone else. Again, you rely on an ad hominem and strawmen. Either learn logic or give up. Your so called logic is a rambling mess I am done! Get over yourself!
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:04 pm
Manga Punk Sai I see it as more of a philosophical issue. There are too many sides to it. Too many gray areas. At the end of the day though, I think it ought to be available. divineseraph In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. Pregnancy as the result of rape is "exceedingly rare"? What universe do you live in? Maybe if you decide to base the numbers on out of the abortions preformed, but what about out of all the rapes committed in the world each day? And death due to pregnancy or childbirth is not as rare as you'd think. It is. Rape, while more common than it should be, is not happening extremely often, and pregnancy because of it happens logically less than every single rape. And yes, they are- They are both extremely rare reasons for abortion. I am not saying that they should not be allowed- They should be. And this would cut down on abortion by about 1.1 million per year. The elective, convenience-driven killing of human beings is what I want to end.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:10 pm
Tourniquet Static M'kay so I'm just gonna come out and say it. If you don't want a kid, USE CONTRACEPTION. I'm not sure about America but in the UK where I live we have 13-16 year olds getting pregnant and then wondering why their scumbag of a "boyfriend" leaves them. Then, left with a baby, a ruined education and not that much brain to start with, their child gets a bad start in a life, and will probably in turn get pregnant/inpregnate a girlfriend young also. These kids that have kids leech off the state- benefits- never get a job, and end up having a load of children by different fathers. This is not a life. Many may argue "But this is their RIGHT!" but how the hell is that a right, rather than needless population surge? So I think that anyone under the age of 23 should have an abortion. They can't handle a kid. They've not got the money, they've not got the time, they've not got the brains. It's a waste. As for religious issues- a girl who doesn't want the baby because they can't support it or don't want it are in the right. All these figures circling on the internet that those who have an abortion regret it- lies! They wanted the abortion, and they can do all they want to before settling down and starting a family, when they have the resources to do so! Plenty of women have abortions, and I can't name one who's regretted it. Due to religious pressure media says "This is BAD" a lot, and directs women to pro-life, but it's just a tiny fetus, it's not a life. It's kinder to get rid of a barely-joined egg and sperm than to keep an unwanted child. In the case of a rape, I think that YES you should be allowed to abort the non-child! It's a reminder of a crime, and the lowest point you could ever imagine. I myself have been sexually assaulted (not rape, just innapropriate contact) and I'm 13 frigging years old for God's sake, this is what the world has come to! Society is oversexualised and many people forget there is more to life than having 1001 kids and having it all over the place. This may seem very angry but I'm SICK of seeing babies having babies. It's not right. They're often not ready to have sex in the first place. You may be psychically ready but certainly not emotionally or mentally. Anyone care to disagree? I stick by this miniature essay, and you really can't convince me away from these. I don't think these are bad values. You would mandate abortion? Disgusting. Also, you seem to not know how pregnancy works- At the time of abortion, fetuses have developed bone and brain, and even fingers, though they may still be webbed. This is not a "recently joined cell", it is a growing, developing human being taking its natural, biological course. Most abortions occur around 8 weeks, and by this point it is far from a "clump of cells", unless you're referring to the fact that all life is a compilation of cells, from humans to birds to elephants. A fetus is a human life, as defined by basic biology. It is impossible to draw lines after conception as of when "life" begins because the growth of an individual does not happen in direct steps- It is a slow progression. If you are going by memory and awareness, then a toddler is fair game to be killed- It does not have the awareness of you or I. If we are going by the dependence on another, those in comas are no longer people, nor are those with more severe mental disabilities. If we are going by legal personhood status, legal personhood has been denied to all sorts of born people, and the law is by no means an objective unit of determining right and wrong.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:11 pm
Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin divineseraph Ravenblackthorn Goblin Ok what if a young girl is raped? Or if it the Mothers life or the childs life during birth-who has the right to make that choice-you? Or the Female in the situation? I would like to think if i was the Lady i want that right? I do not put abortion in the same slot as rape and murder! You would because you are anti-abortion. You're absolutely terrible at logic. Strawman. Strawman. Strawman. Appeal to authority. Ad hominem. Pretty much every single sentence was logically invalid. Please, try again. However, for the sake of clearing things up, I will bother to respond. Rape and life or death situations are different in that consent is not involved in rape, and life or death would fall under self defense. If you even ready my posts above, you would know that I have already said that NOBODY gets to make the choice to abort- Not you, not I, not a doctor, lawyer, priest, rabbi, black or white. In the exceedingly rare case of life or death or rape, the woman carrying the pregnancy should obviously be able to decide, because it is an issue of life or death. But remember, these cases are extremely rare, less than 1/4 of all abortions are done because of rape or health risks. The last two sentences have nothing to do with anything I said in this post. Ok pleasae don't yell at me anymore you are pro-life i get that. I respect your views. I really do understand your point I just have different opinions on it is all. And thats ok! It is the Females right to decide not yours, get over yourself! I wasn't yelling. I was using something called logic. And right now, it has crushed your argument to falling back on opinion, Which is the weakest argument possible. It is a psychopath's opinion that human life holds zero value, so murder should be legal. Get over yourself. It is a racist's opinion that black people aren't the same as white people, and they should be kept separate and enslaved. Get over yourself. It is a homophobic's opinion that gay people are sinful and deserve to die. get over yourself. I have already proven that you are ignoring the main point of the argument, and that it is not anyone's choice to kill anyone else. Again, you rely on an ad hominem and strawmen. Either learn logic or give up. Your so called logic is a rambling mess I am done! Get over yourself! Pitiful.
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:52 pm
goldenstar1975 So pretty much I had this argument in another forum and almost went from being pro choice to pro life because of a feminist. It's a female issue, it's a male issue, it's a moral issue. Like others have said, it gets into womens rights over their own bodies but it also gets into that general right to life and questions over whom that right should cover. Should a tiny growing human embryo/fetus have the same rights as all of us? It is human, it is alive, it is growing and developing. Should a woman have to let a human embryo grow and mature inside of her body, using her resources because of basic biology? There are a lot of very difficult questions here that need to be addressed
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Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:21 pm
Wow OK well my honest opinion on the matter is as complicated as everyone else. I think that making abortion illegal would end in more deaths then keeping it. I think abortion has been done since the beginning of people. Before Roe vs. Wade women with money went to their doctors and had nice save abortions by their own doctors. Women without money went to back alleys and got butchered and either died, were made sterile or were really really lucky and were fine.
A mother and father in one state (I think it was ohio) petitioned to get the law changed that made underage girls inform their parents they were getting an abortion. They did this because their 17 year old honor student tried to abort herself and died. all because she didn't want to tell them she was pregnant.
I hate abortion I hate living in a world where it's needed but it is.
For whoever asked I almost went from being pro choice to pro life because of a very opinionated lady who argued so much for being pro choice that I wanted to kill her. lol But seriously I think it's a moral issue and if you can live with the decision that's your business.
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