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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:48 am
brainnsoup @ AllSevenDeadlySins, Shiori Miko, and Lumanny: If they had existed, would you not consider the gods from Greek, Norse, etc. mythology gods then? They certainly had power over mortals, but they were not all-knowing and some had no powers at all. No.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:01 am
Imo, any worshiped thing, supernatural or not, can take the place of a god.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:34 am
So many cultures have different "form" of gods. They can be hildish and spiteful to loving yet selfish. Most of the gods in ancient cultures were very envious and selfish. So that would probably be one of my requirements. They don't have to be all knowing. They just have to be somehow there. Are gods of destruction and death helpful? (I couldn't think of the word I wanted, but this is close) Yes they are, but you too will someday suffer their "wrath". The Christians say that God always has and always will be. But if he made this earth where was he before. And why is he always a he. This god is proof that it was created from sexist men. Like those men who preach that women should submit and become their "lifeless" beings. Go back to being seen and not heard. But other gods, like Venus, are there for women who stand out. It's just what different cultures think.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:05 am
brainnsoup @ AllSevenDeadlySins, Shiori Miko, and Lumanny: If they had existed, would you not consider the gods from Greek, Norse, etc. mythology gods then? They certainly had power over mortals, but they were not all-knowing and some had no powers at all. Often or all the time, these gods had physical beings and you said they weren't all-knowing. The two things I said a god would be all-knowing and no physical being. If you said a god which fell into both those categories, sure why not?
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:35 am
personally I am not sure about how good and worthy the christian god really is... I am not saying this to offend this is just my opinion... Is it good and fair to send someone to hell just because they don't claim or know about a particular god? what about Ghandi?... he wasn't a christian and he was a very very very good person. He is probbly the most selfless person of his time... Does the christian god send him to hell? That doesn't seem right or just... yes I know about the all fall short and sin and whatnot speech a gazillion times but isn't god all powerful? couldn't he find a way around sin without making such an odd demand? I do however why he would not get rid of satan outright but would prove him wrong and everything because if he just got rid of him it is still likely for another to take his place... but, doesn't that mean he is using all of us as pawns? if he's doing that does he really care and is he really worthy to be called a perfect god?
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:27 am
Itachi_Hare personally I am not sure about how good and worthy the christian god really is... I am not saying this to offend this is just my opinion... Is it good and fair to send someone to hell just because they don't claim or know about a particular god? what about Ghandi?... he wasn't a christian and he was a very very very good person. He is probbly the most selfless person of his time... Does the christian god send him to hell? That doesn't seem right or just... yes I know about the all fall short and sin and whatnot speech a gazillion times but isn't god all powerful? couldn't he find a way around sin without making such an odd demand? I do however why he would not get rid of satan outright but would prove him wrong and everything because if he just got rid of him it is still likely for another to take his place... but, doesn't that mean he is using all of us as pawns? if he's doing that does he really care and is he really worthy to be called a perfect god? Matthew 25:31-46 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:41 am
rmcdra Itachi_Hare personally I am not sure about how good and worthy the christian god really is... I am not saying this to offend this is just my opinion... Is it good and fair to send someone to hell just because they don't claim or know about a particular god? what about Ghandi?... he wasn't a christian and he was a very very very good person. He is probbly the most selfless person of his time... Does the christian god send him to hell? That doesn't seem right or just... yes I know about the all fall short and sin and whatnot speech a gazillion times but isn't god all powerful? couldn't he find a way around sin without making such an odd demand? I do however why he would not get rid of satan outright but would prove him wrong and everything because if he just got rid of him it is still likely for another to take his place... but, doesn't that mean he is using all of us as pawns? if he's doing that does he really care and is he really worthy to be called a perfect god? Matthew 25:31-46 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." I'm not stupid or anything but can you please explain how that answers my question... I need a little more information than just the quotes. Because from what I have been taught in the christian faith that before the things you quoted happen those who didn't claim jesus was the messiah were still sent to hell despite what their actions in life were for a thousand years.. a thousand years after the devil is cast into hell with his demons at the end of revelations...
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:07 pm
Itachi_Hare 'm not stupid or anything but can you please explain how that answers my question... I need a little more information than just the quotes. Because from what I have been taught in the christian faith that before the things you quoted happen those who didn't claim jesus was the messiah were still sent to hell despite what their actions in life were for a thousand years.. a thousand years after the devil is cast into hell with his demons at the end of revelations... Wasn't trying to say that you were stupid. Just saying that those that taught you that were ignorant of their religion or ignorant of this passage. If there is some kind of an afterlife that is taught about in Christianity then he will separate the "sheep" and the "goats". It's up to God to decide who is with him or not in heaven but these verses show what he expects of us and that sums up to not being an a*****e.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:28 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx I think it depends on if you mean 'god' with a lower-case g or God with an uppercase. The gods are mythical, weak, and underserving. You can see their falseness by how human they act. They make for great stories, but aren't worth worship or reverence. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, eternal, the wellspring from which light and love flow, the origon of beauty and strength, the Creator of Heaven and earth, the I AM, the one who Saves and heals, redeemer of man, King of kings and Lord of lords, the One from which all original ideas flow, so glorious angels have to cover their eyes...*pants* Basically to be God you have to be able to Save mankind from themselves, love's gotta be part of your nature, you have to always have existed, and you've got to be omnipotent, omninescent, and the source of all that is good. http://www.allaboutgod.com/who-is-god-c.htm http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whatlike.html There's no proof that other gods never existed just as there is no way to prove that YHWH doesn't exist. And it's true that ancient gods acted on human emotions, even when they were childish or cruel, but doesn't God act on human emotions like jealousy? If God is the creator of everything good, who created everything else? If not Him, why is this other being not a God? Why does a God have to be good and loving to be a God? If a being created the earth and man, was all-knowing and all-powerful, has always existed, but is cruel- or even just apathetic- is it not a God?The proof is in that we can explain what those gods were supposed to do, and some of them were from tales about the earth existing on the back of a turtle, or other things like that. Sure, but He also acts above them. He still loves us, even though it probably would've been easier for Him to just start over and forget about us. He also uses the most unexpected things and people to get His point across. God reated everything, but satan twisted some things. Anything that involves the absence of God, or that was twisted by satan is bad. That's the only kind of God I'd worship, and through what He's done for man, that's the type of God He's proven Himself to be. Just take a look at nature and say that comes form an evil or indifferent god. Or at man- we mess up, but I doubt there's anyone who strives to be evil. Instead, most strive to be good and decent people, so clearly if we were created, it was by a good Creator. But you can't prove that those gods never existed. You can prove that the sun is not Apollo riding around the earth in a golden chariot, but you can't prove that he never existed, that he wasn't a god, that he wasn't the son of Zeus. It doesn't logically make sense, but then again, what god does? Were the ancient pagan gods not superior to humans? Even when they were sometimes neglectful or vengeful, they still controlled people's fates. Didn't He just start over and forget about the first batch of humans with the flood? And what is the proof that He is behind those unexpected things?
If God created everything, did He also create disease, death, Satan? This isn't related to the thread at all, I've just always wondered, if Satan is evil and God is all-powerful, why doesn't He just get rid of Satan?
Haha, I think whoever created nature has a pretty dark sense of humor. There's pretty animals that we can eat... And pretty animals that can eat us. You can be lost at sea and dying of thirst, surrounded by water, but if you drink it it will kill you. Same with poison berries, poison mushrooms, and any other poison plants Bear Grylls has warned me about. Same with people, we're unbelievably complicated and incredible, but we also keep breaking all the time. Broken bones, organ failure, mental illness, and that death thing. Not that there aren't amazing things in the world, but it's far from perfection. If somebody did create this world and us on purpose, it definitely wasn't on the intention of giving us paradise. Either some mistakes were made, or somebody wanted us to suffer a little bit.My God does. :3 Yes, but they weren't all-powerful. Zeus could be thown into Tarturus. All you have to do is read the Percy Jackson series to see how much those gods fail. They were evil. Considering how early it was in our history, wicked men then could've meant so much more pain, evil and suffering now. Plus he didn't destroy our entire race-Noah was saved. Because if you pray for somethng, and the miracle you needed occurs, that's proof for Him. If you have a revelation of Him, that's proof ofHim. If you study the books and find it makes sense, then that's proof enough for Him. Even the odds against everything coming together the way they did is proof of some higher power. The way I see it is if there's no higher power andyou spend your whole life seeking it, and worshipping it, no harm because when everything ends in oblivion, everything's a waste. If the higher power's evil, then bad stuff will most likely happen to you no matter what you do, so again, no harm done. If the higher power's neglectful then it's a lot like if the higher power didn't exist in the first place, and if the higher power's good then all your seeking, worship and reverence is the most important thing you could be doing. Logically it's the only way you can win. Of course it really helps when you love the higher power in question more then anything, and no matter what logic said would still die a thousand deaths for that higher power. But having the logic to back it up is nice too. He created satan, who corrupted himself. Our disobedience meant death entered the world, because deah is the abscence of God, and satan corrupted some things on this earth because when we sinned he got control of it. Technically he's god of this world right now. >.< If He gets rid of all evil and satan, we die too (including Christians) because He'd destroy anything with any evil in it's nature. That's why satan's destuction is gonna have to wait until the end of the world. There are some battles being fought right now in the heart's of man. Sure satan twisted some things, but beauty's what you see the majority of the time. A sunset, snow on a branch, the first crocuses of the spring, a backlit sycamore... Or how about the animals? A cat's strength and grace, a hawk flying overhead, a pod of dolphins playing...even the ugliest or most common creatures can have a purpose. Poisenous plants can heal, dandelions actually smell good, and taste pretty great in a salad to, seagulls are great fun when you have a loaf of bread to spare (Seagull baseball xd ), the smell of the air after it rains, and the power of a storm all point to an amazing Creator. You can find something good to almost all of creation, no matter how twisted it's become. I hate the desert, but Georgia O'Keefe painted amazing scenes from it. Plus just because it can kill you doesn't mean it's not beautiful. I've got this picture hanging up of a lion killing a wildebeest because I happen to really like it. Technically it's sad, but it's also beautiful and powerful too (and I kinda hate wildebeest XD). That's the price mankind paid when we walked away from God. Some mistakes were made. Our mistake, because we ate the dang fruit and chose to try and be like Him rather then staying close to Him, and satan's fault too, for tempting us. That's why he's going burn, but that's unfortuantely why some people are gonna burn too. cry
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:38 pm
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx I think it depends on if you mean 'god' with a lower-case g or God with an uppercase. The gods are mythical, weak, and underserving. You can see their falseness by how human they act. They make for great stories, but aren't worth worship or reverence. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, eternal, the wellspring from which light and love flow, the origon of beauty and strength, the Creator of Heaven and earth, the I AM, the one who Saves and heals, redeemer of man, King of kings and Lord of lords, the One from which all original ideas flow, so glorious angels have to cover their eyes...*pants* Basically to be God you have to be able to Save mankind from themselves, love's gotta be part of your nature, you have to always have existed, and you've got to be omnipotent, omninescent, and the source of all that is good. http://www.allaboutgod.com/who-is-god-c.htm http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whatlike.html There's no proof that other gods never existed just as there is no way to prove that YHWH doesn't exist. And it's true that ancient gods acted on human emotions, even when they were childish or cruel, but doesn't God act on human emotions like jealousy? If God is the creator of everything good, who created everything else? If not Him, why is this other being not a God? Why does a God have to be good and loving to be a God? If a being created the earth and man, was all-knowing and all-powerful, has always existed, but is cruel- or even just apathetic- is it not a God?The proof is in that we can explain what those gods were supposed to do, and some of them were from tales about the earth existing on the back of a turtle, or other things like that. Sure, but He also acts above them. He still loves us, even though it probably would've been easier for Him to just start over and forget about us. He also uses the most unexpected things and people to get His point across. God reated everything, but satan twisted some things. Anything that involves the absence of God, or that was twisted by satan is bad. That's the only kind of God I'd worship, and through what He's done for man, that's the type of God He's proven Himself to be. Just take a look at nature and say that comes form an evil or indifferent god. Or at man- we mess up, but I doubt there's anyone who strives to be evil. Instead, most strive to be good and decent people, so clearly if we were created, it was by a good Creator. But you can't prove that those gods never existed. You can prove that the sun is not Apollo riding around the earth in a golden chariot, but you can't prove that he never existed, that he wasn't a god, that he wasn't the son of Zeus. It doesn't logically make sense, but then again, what god does? Were the ancient pagan gods not superior to humans? Even when they were sometimes neglectful or vengeful, they still controlled people's fates. Didn't He just start over and forget about the first batch of humans with the flood? And what is the proof that He is behind those unexpected things?
If God created everything, did He also create disease, death, Satan? This isn't related to the thread at all, I've just always wondered, if Satan is evil and God is all-powerful, why doesn't He just get rid of Satan?
Haha, I think whoever created nature has a pretty dark sense of humor. There's pretty animals that we can eat... And pretty animals that can eat us. You can be lost at sea and dying of thirst, surrounded by water, but if you drink it it will kill you. Same with poison berries, poison mushrooms, and any other poison plants Bear Grylls has warned me about. Same with people, we're unbelievably complicated and incredible, but we also keep breaking all the time. Broken bones, organ failure, mental illness, and that death thing. Not that there aren't amazing things in the world, but it's far from perfection. If somebody did create this world and us on purpose, it definitely wasn't on the intention of giving us paradise. Either some mistakes were made, or somebody wanted us to suffer a little bit.My God does. :3 Yes, but they weren't all-powerful. Zeus could be thown into Tarturus. All you have to do is read the Percy Jackson series to see how much those gods fail. They were evil. Considering how early it was in our history, wicked men then could've meant so much more pain, evil and suffering now. Plus he didn't destroy our entire race-Noah was saved. Because if you pray for somethng, and the miracle you needed occurs, that's proof for Him. If you have a revelation of Him, that's proof ofHim. If you study the books and find it makes sense, then that's proof enough for Him. Even the odds against everything coming together the way they did is proof of some higher power. The way I see it is if there's no higher power andyou spend your whole life seeking it, and worshipping it, no harm because when everything ends in oblivion, everything's a waste. If the higher power's evil, then bad stuff will most likely happen to you no matter what you do, so again, no harm done. If the higher power's neglectful then it's a lot like if the higher power didn't exist in the first place, and if the higher power's good then all your seeking, worship and reverence is the most important thing you could be doing. Logically it's the only way you can win. Of course it really helps when you love the higher power in question more then anything, and no matter what logic said would still die a thousand deaths for that higher power. But having the logic to back it up is nice too. He created satan, who corrupted himself. Our disobedience meant death entered the world, because deah is the abscence of God, and satan corrupted some things on this earth because when we sinned he got control of it. Technically he's god of this world right now. >.< If He gets rid of all evil and satan, we die too (including Christians) because He'd destroy anything with any evil in it's nature. That's why satan's destuction is gonna have to wait until the end of the world. There are some battles being fought right now in the heart's of man. Sure satan twisted some things, but beauty's what you see the majority of the time. A sunset, snow on a branch, the first crocuses of the spring, a backlit sycamore... Or how about the animals? A cat's strength and grace, a hawk flying overhead, a pod of dolphins playing...even the ugliest or most common creatures can have a purpose. Poisenous plants can heal, dandelions actually smell good, and taste pretty great in a salad to, seagulls are great fun when you have a loaf of bread to spare (Seagull baseball xd ), the smell of the air after it rains, and the power of a storm all point to an amazing Creator. You can find something good to almost all of creation, no matter how twisted it's become. I hate the desert, but Georgia O'Keefe painted amazing scenes from it. Plus just because it can kill you doesn't mean it's not beautiful. I've got this picture hanging up of a lion killing a wildebeest because I happen to really like it. Technically it's sad, but it's also beautiful and powerful too (and I kinda hate wildebeest XD). That's the price mankind paid when we walked away from God. Some mistakes were made. Our mistake, because we ate the dang fruit and chose to try and be like Him rather then staying close to Him, and satan's fault too, for tempting us. That's why he's going burn, but that's unfortuantely why some people are gonna burn too. cry Your god makes sense to you because you because you were raised to believe in Him, obediently and unquestioning. Christianity is full of paradoxes. God is love. Satan is evil. Yet God has killed far more people than Satan. God is all-powerful and loving, but he either can't stop the evil in the world or chooses not to. God is forgiving and merciful, but He damned humankind to an existence of suffering and sin because two of his creations disobeyed him once. The explanations to these only make sense to people who already believe and are not logical solutions.
Ancient gods were not evil. They were arrogant and petty, but not evil. And occasionally one of them would kill or torture some people, but so has YHWH.
Saving one family doesn't justify killing everybody else, even if He created them. If I had ten children and nine were loud, disobedient brats and one was good by comparison, is it alright to kill the other nine? I didn't kill one of them.
If I pray that the sun will rise the next morning, and it does, is it because God answered my prayer? If I pray that somebody dies, and he does, is it because God killed him for me? If I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that I pull through a normally fatal illness, and I do, is it because the Flying Spaghetti Monster saved me? If I pray to YHWH that I pull through, and I don't, does that disprove him? If not, why do unanswered prayers not disprove His existence but answered prayers prove it?
And that logic only works if even a little part of you believes that such a God could exist. I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that no just god would decide my fate for eternity based on how well I worshiped Him in my comparatively unbelievably small lifespan. If there is, I don't think I would want to spend an eternity with Him.
But if God is truly all-powerful and can do anything, why can't He just work around that? Or if He is all-knowing, did He not see this coming before he created man? Or why does he not then just start a new batch of humans? He has before. If He can't simply destroy Satan, then He is not all-powerful.
I'm not denying that parts of nature are beautiful. But I see nature as a reason why it's hard to believe that an intelligent, loving creator put us here for a purpose. It seems that the only reason we even survived for so long is because we can adapt. And it was not our mistake. Eve ate the fruit. Adam ate the fruit. We didn't do anything. We weren't alive. That would mean billions of people suffering for what two people did. If a father commits a murder, do you punish his son? And if God created us, then He is the one who made us flawed. He shouldn't punish us for it. If you put a chair together and it falls apart because you didn't build it right, is it the chair's fault?
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:10 pm
brainnsoup And it made me think, can a mortal become a god simply because he calls himself one? Speaking from my understanding we all are gods. So yes and no simply because that requirement is dependent on fully realizing that we are. Quote: Which made me think, what makes a person a god? Realization of that freedom we have. Edit: It also depends on the culture, people of a culture/religion, and the individual in question. Quote: Does a god need to be able to perform miracles? No but it helps the case. People like "sparkles" Quote: Does a god need to be a person? A certain gender? No and No Quote: What exactly is the difference between mortal and god? Realization of that freedom.Edit: Depends on what a culture/religion defines as what distinguishes between divinity and mortality. Quote: Can a person become a god? And if so, who decides who is a god and who isn't? Yes. The answer depends on the god and what one expects of a god. Quote: Note, I'm not asking what god(s) you believe in, just what criteria a being would need to meet for you to consider them a god. No worship involved. I get what you mean. No worries. I hope what I have posted makes sense and that I don't come off as more of a nutter than I already do. Edited: Corrected thoughtless comments.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:28 pm
rmcdra Itachi_Hare 'm not stupid or anything but can you please explain how that answers my question... I need a little more information than just the quotes. Because from what I have been taught in the christian faith that before the things you quoted happen those who didn't claim jesus was the messiah were still sent to hell despite what their actions in life were for a thousand years.. a thousand years after the devil is cast into hell with his demons at the end of revelations... Wasn't trying to say that you were stupid. Just saying that those that taught you that were ignorant of their religion or ignorant of this passage. If there is some kind of an afterlife that is taught about in Christianity then he will separate the "sheep" and the "goats". It's up to God to decide who is with him or not in heaven but these verses show what he expects of us and that sums up to not being an a*****e. I wasn't saying that you were saying I was stupid I was making a disclaimer for my next series of questions... you still haven't answered me in a way that I can fully understand. Also I read the bible myself... the whole thing and more than one version of it. Also I have heard the same thing from every denomination that teaches anything about the bible. but one of the previous posts bears all of my question/thoughts in perfect form...brainsoup
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:43 pm
Itachi_Hare I wasn't saying that you were saying I was stupid I was making a disclaimer for my next series of questions... you still haven't answered me in a way that I can fully understand. Also I read the bible myself... the whole thing and more than one version of it. Also I have heard the same thing from every denomination that teaches anything about the bible. but one of the previous posts bears all of my question/thoughts in perfect form...brainsoup All I was trying to say is that it is a popular misconception in the Christian system that God condemns all non-believers to "eternal suffering". I was providing a passage to show why this is a misconception.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Itachi_Hare Is it good and fair to send someone to hell just because they don't claim or know about a particular god? what about Ghandi?... he wasn't a christian and he was a very very very good person. He is probbly the most selfless person of his time... Does the christian god send him to hell? That doesn't seem right or just... I've already addressed this. Quote: yes I know about the all fall short and sin and whatnot speech a gazillion times but isn't god all powerful? This is because sin =/= crime but rather a "missing the mark" in the context of the Law of Agape. Quote: couldn't he find a way around sin without making such an odd demand? How is following the law of agape odd, difficult yes but "odd" I'm going to need some clarity? Quote: I do however why he would not get rid of satan outright but would prove him wrong and everything because if he just got rid of him it is still likely for another to take his place... but, doesn't that mean he is using all of us as pawns? Simple Satan, or the Creator made us in his image as we are also made in God's image at our core since creation required that "spark" for it to even function. The Creator made us flawed due to his ignorance of the fullness but we have God within us so that if we wish to be free of the rulership of the Creator we can be since the Creator had to "tap into" that prime source to make his creation possible. Do realize that this is a mythology and not to be taken literally but is conveying truths using cultural symbolism and allegory to explain our human condition. Quote: if he's doing that does he really care and is he really worthy to be called a perfect god? This assumes that God and Creator are one in the same. My sect and heretical texts say they are not.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:06 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx I think it depends on if you mean 'god' with a lower-case g or God with an uppercase. The gods are mythical, weak, and underserving. You can see their falseness by how human they act. They make for great stories, but aren't worth worship or reverence. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, eternal, the wellspring from which light and love flow, the origon of beauty and strength, the Creator of Heaven and earth, the I AM, the one who Saves and heals, redeemer of man, King of kings and Lord of lords, the One from which all original ideas flow, so glorious angels have to cover their eyes...*pants* Basically to be God you have to be able to Save mankind from themselves, love's gotta be part of your nature, you have to always have existed, and you've got to be omnipotent, omninescent, and the source of all that is good. http://www.allaboutgod.com/who-is-god-c.htm http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whatlike.html There's no proof that other gods never existed just as there is no way to prove that YHWH doesn't exist. And it's true that ancient gods acted on human emotions, even when they were childish or cruel, but doesn't God act on human emotions like jealousy? If God is the creator of everything good, who created everything else? If not Him, why is this other being not a God? Why does a God have to be good and loving to be a God? If a being created the earth and man, was all-knowing and all-powerful, has always existed, but is cruel- or even just apathetic- is it not a God?The proof is in that we can explain what those gods were supposed to do, and some of them were from tales about the earth existing on the back of a turtle, or other things like that. Sure, but He also acts above them. He still loves us, even though it probably would've been easier for Him to just start over and forget about us. He also uses the most unexpected things and people to get His point across. God reated everything, but satan twisted some things. Anything that involves the absence of God, or that was twisted by satan is bad. That's the only kind of God I'd worship, and through what He's done for man, that's the type of God He's proven Himself to be. Just take a look at nature and say that comes form an evil or indifferent god. Or at man- we mess up, but I doubt there's anyone who strives to be evil. Instead, most strive to be good and decent people, so clearly if we were created, it was by a good Creator. But you can't prove that those gods never existed. You can prove that the sun is not Apollo riding around the earth in a golden chariot, but you can't prove that he never existed, that he wasn't a god, that he wasn't the son of Zeus. It doesn't logically make sense, but then again, what god does? Were the ancient pagan gods not superior to humans? Even when they were sometimes neglectful or vengeful, they still controlled people's fates. Didn't He just start over and forget about the first batch of humans with the flood? And what is the proof that He is behind those unexpected things?
If God created everything, did He also create disease, death, Satan? This isn't related to the thread at all, I've just always wondered, if Satan is evil and God is all-powerful, why doesn't He just get rid of Satan?
Haha, I think whoever created nature has a pretty dark sense of humor. There's pretty animals that we can eat... And pretty animals that can eat us. You can be lost at sea and dying of thirst, surrounded by water, but if you drink it it will kill you. Same with poison berries, poison mushrooms, and any other poison plants Bear Grylls has warned me about. Same with people, we're unbelievably complicated and incredible, but we also keep breaking all the time. Broken bones, organ failure, mental illness, and that death thing. Not that there aren't amazing things in the world, but it's far from perfection. If somebody did create this world and us on purpose, it definitely wasn't on the intention of giving us paradise. Either some mistakes were made, or somebody wanted us to suffer a little bit.My God does. :3 Yes, but they weren't all-powerful. Zeus could be thown into Tarturus. All you have to do is read the Percy Jackson series to see how much those gods fail. They were evil. Considering how early it was in our history, wicked men then could've meant so much more pain, evil and suffering now. Plus he didn't destroy our entire race-Noah was saved. Because if you pray for somethng, and the miracle you needed occurs, that's proof for Him. If you have a revelation of Him, that's proof ofHim. If you study the books and find it makes sense, then that's proof enough for Him. Even the odds against everything coming together the way they did is proof of some higher power. The way I see it is if there's no higher power andyou spend your whole life seeking it, and worshipping it, no harm because when everything ends in oblivion, everything's a waste. If the higher power's evil, then bad stuff will most likely happen to you no matter what you do, so again, no harm done. If the higher power's neglectful then it's a lot like if the higher power didn't exist in the first place, and if the higher power's good then all your seeking, worship and reverence is the most important thing you could be doing. Logically it's the only way you can win. Of course it really helps when you love the higher power in question more then anything, and no matter what logic said would still die a thousand deaths for that higher power. But having the logic to back it up is nice too. He created satan, who corrupted himself. Our disobedience meant death entered the world, because deah is the abscence of God, and satan corrupted some things on this earth because when we sinned he got control of it. Technically he's god of this world right now. >.< If He gets rid of all evil and satan, we die too (including Christians) because He'd destroy anything with any evil in it's nature. That's why satan's destuction is gonna have to wait until the end of the world. There are some battles being fought right now in the heart's of man. Sure satan twisted some things, but beauty's what you see the majority of the time. A sunset, snow on a branch, the first crocuses of the spring, a backlit sycamore... Or how about the animals? A cat's strength and grace, a hawk flying overhead, a pod of dolphins playing...even the ugliest or most common creatures can have a purpose. Poisenous plants can heal, dandelions actually smell good, and taste pretty great in a salad to, seagulls are great fun when you have a loaf of bread to spare (Seagull baseball xd ), the smell of the air after it rains, and the power of a storm all point to an amazing Creator. You can find something good to almost all of creation, no matter how twisted it's become. I hate the desert, but Georgia O'Keefe painted amazing scenes from it. Plus just because it can kill you doesn't mean it's not beautiful. I've got this picture hanging up of a lion killing a wildebeest because I happen to really like it. Technically it's sad, but it's also beautiful and powerful too (and I kinda hate wildebeest XD). That's the price mankind paid when we walked away from God. Some mistakes were made. Our mistake, because we ate the dang fruit and chose to try and be like Him rather then staying close to Him, and satan's fault too, for tempting us. That's why he's going burn, but that's unfortuantely why some people are gonna burn too. cry Your god makes sense to you because you because you were raised to believe in Him, obediently and unquestioning. Christianity is full of paradoxes. God is love. Satan is evil. Yet God has killed far more people than Satan. God is all-powerful and loving, but he either can't stop the evil in the world or chooses not to. God is forgiving and merciful, but He damned humankind to an existence of suffering and sin because two of his creations disobeyed him once. The explanations to these only make sense to people who already believe and are not logical solutions.
Ancient gods were not evil. They were arrogant and petty, but not evil. And occasionally one of them would kill or torture some people, but so has YHWH.
Saving one family doesn't justify killing everybody else, even if He created them. If I had ten children and nine were loud, disobedient brats and one was good by comparison, is it alright to kill the other nine? I didn't kill one of them.
If I pray that the sun will rise the next morning, and it does, is it because God answered my prayer? If I pray that somebody dies, and he does, is it because God killed him for me? If I pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that I pull through a normally fatal illness, and I do, is it because the Flying Spaghetti Monster saved me? If I pray to YHWH that I pull through, and I don't, does that disprove him? If not, why do unanswered prayers not disprove His existence but answered prayers prove it?
And that logic only works if even a little part of you believes that such a God could exist. I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that no just god would decide my fate for eternity based on how well I worshiped Him in my comparatively unbelievably small lifespan. If there is, I don't think I would want to spend an eternity with Him.
But if God is truly all-powerful and can do anything, why can't He just work around that? Or if He is all-knowing, did He not see this coming before he created man? Or why does he not then just start a new batch of humans? He has before. If He can't simply destroy Satan, then He is not all-powerful.
I'm not denying that parts of nature are beautiful. But I see nature as a reason why it's hard to believe that an intelligent, loving creator put us here for a purpose. It seems that the only reason we even survived for so long is because we can adapt. And it was not our mistake. Eve ate the fruit. Adam ate the fruit. We didn't do anything. We weren't alive. That would mean billions of people suffering for what two people did. If a father commits a murder, do you punish his son? And if God created us, then He is the one who made us flawed. He shouldn't punish us for it. If you put a chair together and it falls apart because you didn't build it right, is it the chair's fault?Nope, I did question a lot, but I've found a lot of answers that were to my satisfaction, and the others I trust Gd for. H'e more important to me then my unanswered questons. That's news to me. >< I think satan posessed a lot of people (like say, Hitler) and encouraged a lot of people to harm their fellow man. I also think he twisted viruses and parasites and other unpleasent things to suit his purposes. Count up all those killed by disease and fighting, and those I hold satan partly responsible for. Then there's death itself, which he ncouraged us to do as we did so it would be introduced to the world, so in that case he could be held partly responsible for all the deaths of the world. :3 Doesn't for our sake. And changed the nature of creation, which was a gift from them. It's kinda like they were responsible for the earth and the children, so like if a king and queen made a bad decision, everyone paid the price. Plus you're forgetting that babies aren't held accountably for their actions, and their sin nature so hey go to Heaven. It's only once we act on temptation that we need Him to Save us. Then why do some people become Christians. There's gotta be a reason it's held steady with a third of the world's population following it. They were like arrogant kings and queens with superpowers. For a world so well-organized, it's hard to believe those buffoons are responsible for running it. What if those nine would grow up to cause intense pain and poverty to the human race, and they were teenagers so past the point of you reaching them? Or they were gonna start a nuclear war, or do some other thing that would make you regret ever having them? Or let's make them monkeys who were extremey violent and destructive, but you had hand-raised. It's some kinda mixture between thoise two scenarios. That helped, if you meant the prayer. Maybe...probably. Nope, unless it was sincere. Then maybe te Lord intervened. Nope, because it just says He'll answer. It doesn't say the answer can't be no. Some answered prayers prove Him. Revlations can prove that He exists too, and so can seeing sense through the whole thing. Why do you get to judge God? If He's the Creator, then why shouldn't He be the judge of you? Maybe the Tribulation's His way of doing that. He probably did, though it's possible that choice means that He can't predict which way we'll decide. He promised not to, thus the rainbow (you know, the flood's the first time rain is mentioned in the Bible. There's a theory going around that before the flood, it didn't rain, which is why the first rainbow didn't appear until after the flood). He can. It's a war though, and there's hostages-us. And He dealt a nasty blow through Jesus. If everyone on this earth came to Christ, I think He's finaly destroy satan, and we could all live happily. Who do you do think put that desire to survive in us? If a mother drinks and smokes while she's pregnant, why is the baby retarded? Those two changed human nature. Plus, nobody's damned until they sinned, so technically it is our fault, even if it is in our nature. He made them perfect, but He gave Adam and Eve choice. They chose wrong. That left a mark on us. Then we get a choice. Unfortunately, the rest of us always choose wrong too. So then we need Jesus. None of us are an inanimate object, or even an animal. We're people with the choice of whether to act on our flawed design. When we sin, it's our fault.
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