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 Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:55 pm
The whole, leave it all to god thing never really made sense to me. By religious logic:
God makes man
God gives man intelligence
Man creates medicine
I fail to see the problem here.
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:35 pm
Artto Parents should be punished. It doesn't matter if they didn't know it was wrong. What kind of a defence is that? Oh yeah, I killed that guy, but I thought it was the right thing to do! I hate it when stupid things get a free pass, just because they are done due to religious convictions. I hate it when stupid things get a free pass period. Parents should be punished for doing what they thought was just and right? No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need.
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:24 pm
Semiremis No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need. They shouldn't go unpunished because our society is civilised. Some parents may think beating their children is just and right. Should they go unpunished, too?
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:47 pm
Artto Semiremis No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need. They shouldn't go unpunished because our society is civilised. Some parents may think beating their children is just and right. Should they go unpunished, too? But the parents might be otherwise loving (in the case of those who deny those kids medication). If they're doing what they think is in their child's best interest, then they have to have some people who came from their point of view tell them why it's not in their best interest and if the child's old enough, they should have a say too. And being taking by child services can scar a child for life. They can be seperated from their siblings, feel lost, confused, and be a lot worse off for it. If a child's parents do their best to care for that child, they shouldn't be taken out of their home if it can be helped. As for kids whose parents beat them: that depends. The mom in A Child Called It was so out of line. She should've been jailed for life or worse. Some parents who 'beat' their kids never cross a line, and really did have a good reason. Like I think Laura Ingalls Wilder may have been physically punished, but you wouldn't accuse her pa of being abusive. My mom has hit me a few times, and I've resented it, but at this pont, I don't think it made her a bad mom. Some of it really does depend on intention.
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:30 pm
Artto Semiremis No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need. They shouldn't go unpunished because our society is civilised. Some parents may think beating their children is just and right. Should they go unpunished, too? False analogy, it's an informal fallacy, we aren't talking about parents who beat their children which is a separate topic in and of itself containing multiple different possible scenarios. We're talking about an extremely specific subject, parents denying their kids medical care while instead relying on their own methods of healing. You don't like their methods of healing and that's fine, personally I don't care much for their idea of helping their children either and that's one of the reasons we have child protective services. Let's say the parents try a type of holistic healing on their child, it fails, the child dies...now you want to see the parents punished for trying to help their child in the best way that they knew how. Wouldn't a just society concerned with choosing moral rightness over wrong be sympathetic to the loss that the family experienced and not try to exact revenge and cause further suffering for those who did what they could to save their loved one? I have little patience for those who would deny medical care to those in need regardless of their reasons why. I have less patience for dealing with the aforementioned people by exacting revenge.
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:33 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx Artto Parents should be punished. It doesn't matter if they didn't know it was wrong. What kind of a defence is that? Oh yeah, I killed that guy, but I thought it was the right thing to do! I hate it when stupid things get a free pass, just because they are done due to religious convictions. My point was that punishing them probably wouldn't do anything but make them go undergrond. Wouldn't that be bad for the child? At least if they aren't punished, someone other then the parents might find out and be able to get the child help. They should be held responsible for neglecting their child. It's almost the same as if they were beating their child, and thought it was the proper way of maintaining discipline. And they can't really go underground, if they have other relatives. I also think its neglect to let a child suffer when there are things that can prevent their death. I guess she should know what she's getting herself into. Maybe you could talk to a priest and see what their view is. Maybe her priest could talk her into taking something or something something. We were given choices for a reason. I'm not sure if its to tempt us or for us to be so greedy we destroy the human population.
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:01 pm
Semiremis Artto Semiremis No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need. They shouldn't go unpunished because our society is civilised. Some parents may think beating their children is just and right. Should they go unpunished, too? False analogy, it's an informal fallacy, we aren't talking about parents who beat their children which is a separate topic in and of itself containing multiple different possible scenarios. We're talking about an extremely specific subject, parents denying their kids medical care while instead relying on their own methods of healing. You don't like their methods of healing and that's fine, personally I don't care much for their idea of helping their children either and that's one of the reasons we have child protective services. Let's say the parents try a type of holistic healing on their child, it fails, the child dies...now you want to see the parents punished for trying to help their child in the best way that they knew how. Wouldn't a just society concerned with choosing moral rightness over wrong be sympathetic to the loss that the family experienced and not try to exact revenge and cause further suffering for those who did what they could to save their loved one? I have little patience for those who would deny medical care to those in need regardless of their reasons why. I have less patience for dealing with the aforementioned people by exacting revenge.
Intentions mean a lot to me too. But if parents get away with letting their child die because they didn't know any better, where do you draw the line at what's neglect and what's just stupidity?
I agree that if a parent was denying a child medical treatment that the child should be taken away, but if the child dies, I think the parent should face the same consequences as any other parents who neglect their kids.
I understand things like using home remedies or just avoiding medication as much as possible when it comes to things like headaches and colds instead of taking over the counter medication. But when a child is dying, the parents need to take him to a doctor. It's a responsibility that comes with having a child.
And maybe the only point of punishing these parents is for revenge. They're not a direct threat to society like people who need to be in jail. But neither are people who neglect/abuse their kids for other reasons. Why do they deserve jail time while the other parents walk free?
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Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:52 pm
brainnsoup Semiremis Artto Semiremis No our society is much more civilized then that, supposedly. Their children however should be taken into protective custody if the situation demands it and given the care that they need. They shouldn't go unpunished because our society is civilised. Some parents may think beating their children is just and right. Should they go unpunished, too? False analogy, it's an informal fallacy, we aren't talking about parents who beat their children which is a separate topic in and of itself containing multiple different possible scenarios. We're talking about an extremely specific subject, parents denying their kids medical care while instead relying on their own methods of healing. You don't like their methods of healing and that's fine, personally I don't care much for their idea of helping their children either and that's one of the reasons we have child protective services. Let's say the parents try a type of holistic healing on their child, it fails, the child dies...now you want to see the parents punished for trying to help their child in the best way that they knew how. Wouldn't a just society concerned with choosing moral rightness over wrong be sympathetic to the loss that the family experienced and not try to exact revenge and cause further suffering for those who did what they could to save their loved one? I have little patience for those who would deny medical care to those in need regardless of their reasons why. I have less patience for dealing with the aforementioned people by exacting revenge.
Intentions mean a lot to me too. But if parents get away with letting their child die because they didn't know any better, where do you draw the line at what's neglect and what's just stupidity?
I agree that if a parent was denying a child medical treatment that the child should be taken away, but if the child dies, I think the parent should face the same consequences as any other parents who neglect their kids.
I understand things like using home remedies or just avoiding medication as much as possible when it comes to things like headaches and colds instead of taking over the counter medication. But when a child is dying, the parents need to take him to a doctor. It's a responsibility that comes with having a child.
And maybe the only point of punishing these parents is for revenge. They're not a direct threat to society like people who need to be in jail. But neither are people who neglect/abuse their kids for other reasons. Why do they deserve jail time while the other parents walk free?Do parents beat their children as a form of health care? If so then yeah maybe it could be used, but I was under the assumption that we were talking about providing health care (for children in this case) which is exactly what the hypothetical parents were doing (they just didn't choose the form that you deem valid). Abuse is a very large grouping, child abuse...a very large sub-group all forms differ greatly and a good analogy would take that into consideration, the analogy in question is hardly comparable, it takes two very different situations with very different motives and tries to mesh it together as one in an emotional appeal. A parent that cares for a child through some means other then medical science is a criminal? Their child dies and I guarantee you that they as the survivors will be suffering an incredible amount of grief over the loss of their loved one. So what would you do, get all angry that they prayed to God, what if they tried holistic healing, maybe they had their own herbal remedies? So what would you have us do with them? Lock them up for a while? Personally I would have child protective services do an investigation to protect other children who are in their care and remove them from the household if necessary. Anything more and we are moving past the realm of compassion and into revenge.
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:16 am
Semiremis Do parents beat their children as a form of health care? If so then yeah maybe it could be used, but I was under the assumption that we were talking about providing health care (for children in this case) which is exactly what the hypothetical parents were doing (they just didn't choose the form that you deem valid). Abuse is a very large grouping, child abuse...a very large sub-group all forms differ greatly and a good analogy would take that into consideration, the analogy in question is hardly comparable, it takes two very different situations with very different motives and tries to mesh it together as one in an emotional appeal. A parent that cares for a child through some means other then medical science is a criminal? Their child dies and I guarantee you that they as the survivors will be suffering an incredible amount of grief over the loss of their loved one. So what would you do, get all angry that they prayed to God, what if they tried holistic healing, maybe they had their own herbal remedies? So what would you have us do with them? Lock them up for a while? Personally I would have child protective services do an investigation to protect other children who are in their care and remove them from the household if necessary. Anything more and we are moving past the realm of compassion and into revenge. It's not about revenge, it's about making an example. Otherwise some people may take it as if it were sort of ok, to just pray over a dying child instead of taking it to a doctor. And no, it would not be ok, if they were trying holistic medicine and the child died as a consequence. (there was a case, where the parents were trying to heal their kid using homeopathy, and it failed (no suprise there)). And if they were beating their kids, because they thought it was good for them, as in teaching them proper discipline? The analogy stands, because your point was, that these parents thought they were doing the right thing for their child. But for some reason, these parents shouldn't be sanctioned, and the one's that beat their child for discipline should?
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:36 pm
Jesus spit into the dirt and made mud, which he rubbed on a blind man's eyes, restoring his sight.
that was an accepted medical practice!
he healed the centurion's servant from a distance, so we are told, so there may have been no need to go to such lengths to practice medicine in ways that people understood...unless he wanted us to realize that medicine is ok?
there was a cute church bulletin announcement i once read (especially meaningful if your digestive system has ever been tortured by the heavy foods at a typical church supper):
"Church dinner tomorrow night.
Dinner will be followed by prayer and medication."
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:59 am
chessiejo Jesus spit into the dirt and made mud, which he rubbed on a blind man's eyes, restoring his sight. that was an accepted medical practice! Let's say for the sake of argument, that it really happened. How is a one-time miracle an accepted medical practice?
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:14 am
Artto Semiremis Do parents beat their children as a form of health care? If so then yeah maybe it could be used, but I was under the assumption that we were talking about providing health care (for children in this case) which is exactly what the hypothetical parents were doing (they just didn't choose the form that you deem valid). Abuse is a very large grouping, child abuse...a very large sub-group all forms differ greatly and a good analogy would take that into consideration, the analogy in question is hardly comparable, it takes two very different situations with very different motives and tries to mesh it together as one in an emotional appeal. A parent that cares for a child through some means other then medical science is a criminal? Their child dies and I guarantee you that they as the survivors will be suffering an incredible amount of grief over the loss of their loved one. So what would you do, get all angry that they prayed to God, what if they tried holistic healing, maybe they had their own herbal remedies? So what would you have us do with them? Lock them up for a while? Personally I would have child protective services do an investigation to protect other children who are in their care and remove them from the household if necessary. Anything more and we are moving past the realm of compassion and into revenge. It's not about revenge, it's about making an example. Otherwise some people may take it as if it were sort of ok, to just pray over a dying child instead of taking it to a doctor. And no, it would not be ok, if they were trying holistic medicine and the child died as a consequence. (there was a case, where the parents were trying to heal their kid using homeopathy, and it failed (no suprise there)). It's only about revenge. You're infuriated over something you see as a great injustice (the loss of a child who could have been saved) and you want someone to pay for it but it's not going to act as a deterrent, if anything it will only enrage those who refuse medical care and push those leaning that way further in that direction. Most of those who believe in God(s) feel similar to how you do about this but you want to create a martyr because you are angry and think that further suffering should be inflicted on people who only did what they knew how to do. If any good could come from what you are proposing then I might take your side but I don't see it. The state doing an investigation and removing the children from the household because the parents won't care for their medical needs in the way that the state deems necessary is all that should be done at this point. With the hypothetical family the state should hold an investigation to determine whether or not other children would be safe in the household and if the answer is no, then they should be removed.
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:04 pm
You are right. But, would this case be considered child neglect, according to the law?
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:22 pm
Ice_Veins The whole, leave it all to god thing never really made sense to me. By religious logic: God makes man God gives man intelligence Man creates medicine I fail to see the problem here. This. I have to take medicine every morning for my OCD and Aspergers, and I think G-d is glad that I'm getting relief. Artto Parents should be punished. It doesn't matter if they didn't know it was wrong. What kind of a defence is that? Oh yeah, I killed that guy, but I thought it was the right thing to do! I hate it when stupid things get a free pass, just because they are done due to religious convictions. This too. Those irresponsible fanatical motherf***ers. In Judaism, even DIRECT, EXPLICIT COMMANDMENTS can be waived if there is any danger to Human llife or human health.
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:55 pm
anticupid16 brainnsoup My aunt, who is a very strict Christian, recently found out that she had Parkinson's Disease. It hasn't progressed very far, but she refuses to take medication. Instead, she started looking up little home remedies, started praying about it, stuff like that. And it's tough because I don't see that helping and though she can't cure it, Parkinson's is manageable with medication and medication would, as I understand it, severely slow its progress. I know that it has something to do with her faith. But I don't know exactly why she won't get treatment. My dad explained it to me as something along the lines of she believes that everything that happens is God's will, and if it is His will, she will get better. But this is obviously frustrating for me as an atheist. On that same note, everybody's heard horror stories of sick children dying because their parent's refuse medical treatment and pray instead. -What exactly are religious reasons behind refusing medical treatment? -Is it okay to refuse medical treatment for yourself? If you knew somebody who was, would you try to change their minds even if they were doing it because of their religion? -Is it alright for a parent to deny their child medication/treatment? Even for religious reasons? Should parents who do be punished? Well, first, I'd like to say sorry about your aunt. I had my grandma who lived with us have very similar conditions about her medications and let's just say it wasn't pretty... I think the religious reasons are hard for other people to understand, because they're a matter of faith. Maybe someone who believes in not taking medication will post and enlighten us... I think it's your right to refuse medication, so yes, that would be okay. But you also need to think about how not taking the medication might hurt your friends and family before you decide. I would personally try to change their mind, but would accept it if I couldn't. I don't think parents should deny children medical treatment, especially if it's something serious (i.e. cancer, pneumonia, tuberculosis) but if the child refuses treatment, that is their right. The parents should have to let their children take the medications. That's just wrong. *Runs to the discussion* I hate Medication and refuse to take it unless I am dieing a slow painful death even then i don't think I'd take it. Hopefully I can answer some questions you all have asked. Also Artto the parents thingy about there kids First kids taken to different family and or forcefully taken to the doctors office and along the lines of hurting the kids GROW A DAMN PAIR! AS LONG AS THE KID(S) AINT GONNA NEED TO BE SENT TO THE HOSPITAL AFTER BEING HIT THEY WILL F*CKING LIVE! I see nothing wrong with spanking a Child when s/he did something wrong! As for the medication part that this is about I hate taking Meds only because of all the side effects they cause, i'd rather deal with the pain then take your w/e that makes u (insert long list of side effects here) while i can operate fine with mild discomfort. As for my religious stand point I believe this happen naturally and as such we can kind a natural cure hence why i refuse to take anything science has mad to make me feel better at the expense of who knows what. As for other people I can't say but I will never take anything made from science medication wise unless my life depended on it at this age. As for your Mother I can't say on her behalf but it sounds like she believes she is has either accepted the fact that it isnt curable or a miracle will happen and she will be fine. (I'm not familiar with that disease so if it is curable then idk her reasoning)
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