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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:26 pm
Leavaros I guess I can see where you are coming from. But...are you ashamed of it? I mean...if you are, don't you think it was unwise to ask that of her in the first place? And for that matter, it sounds like you've known this woman for quite a while. Did you consider that she might not be the best choice for "quiet help"? -LD
Ashamed of what, exactly? I don't quite understand what you are saying there.
She has been one of my best friends, for indeed, 20 years. I know that I am hers, I am her Bridesmaid, and her longest friend, and she has entrusted with me information and difficult and serious experiences that is to go no further than us. Added to all that we both lost our other best friend to murder (the girl in my sig)... I shouldn't ever have had to doubt her loyalty. But there it is.
I'm sure if I told her I needed an abortion she would have been the soul of discretion. However when I needed this (which was pretty serious in it's own right), it seems like it was a game. But I know that's not how she genuinely feels about it, I know she is dedicated to this path, but her lapses in judgment have been extreme lately. That's why I'm torn as to what to say or do about all this stuff. I can't figure her out right now. I think there might be something wrong with her that she doesn't even know just yet.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 pm
I see. While I can't say I agree with you completely, I don't know her. In complete honesty, I don't know you, either, though I hope that this ignorance will soon be cleared.
The one thing I complain most about Pagans and Wiccans, homosexuals and practitioners of magic (myself included in these last two groups), is that many of us have the belief that the truth is ours to tell or conceal on a whim, as if our existence only concerns us. I've heard people say that they didn't see so much rape and murder on the news, but many fewer say that they wish there were less incidents like these.
Not to compare sexuality or religion to rape or murder. But the acknowledgment of these things--the ultimate acceptance of the first two and the ultimate correction of the second two--can only be achieved by first having honesty. Openness precedes every emotion worthy of note.
Not to say that I'm a saint, and not to say that I haven't had my own closeted skeletons to deal with. And certainly not to preach. I only say these things to explain my position on a topic that I hadn't done so well.
And, to lead into my next point....
That perhaps she doesn't feel it is wrong to speak of. Have you ever thought that perhaps her flamboyance is self-defense, and her openness of her relationship with you is an attempt for her to protect you, as well? Perhaps she does neither rightly, especially without consulting you first, but have you considered breeching the topic to her? That, to avoid confrontation, and a scene, should be done "discreetly", where and when the two of you have a chance to talk things out and come to an understanding.
I mean, isn't that only fair, after twenty years of friendship, to discuss your feelings on these matters? In truth, it sounds as much like a communication issue as it does a social one.
No offense intended, and I hope the two of you swiftly and without further ado resolve these issues plaguing your hearts and driving a wedge between you. I am loathe to see such old friendships be ripped apart by misunderstandings. I would know--I've had my share of them.
Love adn Vale,
~Leavaros Dapple
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:25 pm
Leavaros That perhaps she doesn't feel it is wrong to speak of. Have you ever thought that perhaps her flamboyance is self-defense, and her openness of her relationship with you is an attempt for her to protect you, as well?
I still don't see how breaching my trust protects me in any way, especially when she know that my religious views are on the QT. Just because she is living out doesn't mean I am through her. Just as you would never out one of your gay friends who need/desires to stay in. Sometimes honesty is not ours to share. Sometimes it leads to gossip and dark things.Leavaros but have you considered breeching the topic to her? That, to avoid confrontation, and a scene, should be done "discreetly", where and when the two of you have a chance to talk things out and come to an understanding. I mean, isn't that only fair, after twenty years of friendship, to discuss your feelings on these matters? In truth, it sounds as much like a communication issue as it does a social one.
I think I'm just going to leave her alone, and lead by example, because I can't change her, she has to want to change herself. I guess the only thing I can do is discuss responsible witchy behaviour in a non accusatory way, just as a general thing. Maybe something will rub off.
I think the only thing I will directly talk to her about is the telling other people about things we do for each other.
I can't just lay out all that I discussed in the first post or it might seem like I am attacking her. It wouldn't be fair. As for some of the other things that bother me (like the talking loudly on the bus thing) She lives 50 km from me, and soon I'll be moving another 50km in the other direction, so things like that shouldn't happen so often anymore as I will see her even less. That is a general problem with her, though. She'll talk to loudly about sex, or brag about how well she is doing in her oh-so-difficult courses. She is an attention whore, I know that. I just hate it when she drags me into it. It makes me very uncomfortable. My problem with her behaviour in the realm of Wicca, though, is that I was taught that a Witch doesn't boast. It's certainly unbecoming to any person, no matter whom they are.Leavaros No offense intended, and I hope the two of you swiftly and without further ado resolve these issues plaguing your hearts and driving a wedge between you. I am loathe to see such old friendships be ripped apart by misunderstandings. I would know--I've had my share of them.
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:39 pm
I'm glad that much of this has been resolved. On certain other issues, I will leave it to you to decide what is best for you. And while you're absolutely correct, in that I would never out a closet case, I would certainly pressure them to out themselves. Believe me, it's easier on your own terms, and it gets easier with each time. Far less awkward. And...it's just less dishonest. Besides, the longer one stays in the closet, the harder it is to remove oneself from it.... In fact, tomorrow, I plan to take my own advice and lay all my cards out on the table. Because my feelings aren't just mine to hide--they exist because of him.... For details, go here. Love and Vale, ~Leavaros Dapple
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:23 pm
Sounds like you've already starting reaching a conclusion and I'm glad. smile
Just wanted to put in my 2 cents- I agree with your point of view on discretion. I don't agree with anyone shoving their religion in someone else's face. At teh same time though, don't hide your beliefs either. Its a fine balance. Wear your pentagram, but unless someone asks and seems to be serious and wants to know- don't mention that you're Wiccan or try to convert them. Same goes for crosses.
Since I'm in the learning phase still; I don't even try to explain anything very in depth. I try to reccomend books and tell them that they are at the local library- thats where I first read them. smile
Everyone has their own path; and shouting "I'm a witch and so very powerful" in others faces just doesn't seem very attractive to me. Infact people doing doing very similar actions with Christianity is what drove me to being an atheist for 2 years... I just didn't want any part of anything.
ANyway; I hope you and her are able to resolve everything and keep your friendship. A friendship of that length is worth alot.
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:48 pm
Kareena80 At teh same time though, don't hide your beliefs either. Its a fine balance. Wear your pentagram, but unless someone asks and seems to be serious and wants to know- don't mention that you're Wiccan or try to convert them
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:29 pm
*sigh* Because "Every emotion worthy of note begins with openness". The end of that is "and is completed in Love". Love can no more exist without openness than goodness can be revealed without truth.
You're right: sometimes it's more difficult to tell, more painful to reveal yourself. You could get hurt, or hurt someone else. But at least you won't be living with pretenses.
It isn't always easy. But it's always better to be honest. Even if it hurts.
Love and Vale,
-LD
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:54 pm
Where are your quotes from? I don't know them off hand
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:12 pm
Leavaros *sigh* Because "Every emotion worthy of note begins with openness". The end of that is "and is completed in Love". Love can no more exist without openness than goodness can be revealed without truth. You're right: sometimes it's more difficult to tell, more painful to reveal yourself. You could get hurt, or hurt someone else. But at least you won't be living with pretenses. It isn't always easy. But it's always better to be honest. Even if it hurts. Love and Vale, -LD I couldn't have said it any better. The other thing is, if you hide something sometimes it tends to look like your ashamed of it or that its something bad. I'm NOT saying that you are- just that some people may percieve it that way. My beliefs are just part of me, and not something I hide- but I don't say anything about them unless asked. But really, do what ever you feel comfortable with- thats whats most important.
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:49 pm
Zsa Zsa Where are your quotes from? I don't know them off hand If the quotes prove themselves true, then what does the source matter? But to your question, I am the source. It's a variation of one of my Codes. @Kareena: Actually, it's funny you say that. I'm in PE this year, and I thought everyone knew I was gay. Time passed, and I was confronted, and I told the truth. Yet, I still felt pretty low about it--I didn't avoid the fact, but I certainly wasn't as open as I would normally be. I remedied that. Not easy, but better. I think that the straight guys are more concerned with a f** who has the courage to say what he is than covering his a** when their around. It's amazing what a little honesty can do--I'm becoming closer and closer with a number of them.... Love and Vale, -LD
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:32 pm
I can understand if keeping quiet it going to cause harm, then it is bad. Believe me, I understand, since I am going to disclose some of my past, none of which would have happened if someone had something earlier.
I have problems with complete honesty. Although I believe that to be honest is a virtue worth cultivating, I also believe that honesty for the sake of honesty can be selfish, especially if you have been honest with total disregard to the consequences. There has been harm from things being said that didn’t need to be said. Sometimes people are honest merely to put a problem that is rightfully theirs on someone else. Sometimes your burden is solely your problem, and it isn’t fair to dump something on someone else without permission. I know a lot of things I didn’t ever need to know, and wish I didn’t. Things that caused depression and poor health, and upon reflection, (both mine and other parties involved) agree that being quite so honest was unreasonable.
If it is going to serve no good purpose other than to single yourself out for possibly dangerous repercussions or to harm you or other people when it is unnecessary, why do it? Like I said, it can become a selfish matter, depending on the situation. If you don’t want to keep a secret, especially if it is causing harm to your health or psychology, by all means tell, and people around will just have to deal with it. You're right, sometimes some things need to be said. But I wouldn’t recommend it as a habit, everything that will affect other people in a negative way should be thought about seriously before disclosing. No good purpose is served in being defiantly open with every person you meet.
However this is actually off topic. My view on privacy doesn’t automatically become a matter of secrecy. I personally see no purpose served by telling this particular issue. I do not disclose my religious choice to my family and majority of my friends, and my work place for several good reasons.
1) My family was once in a Christian cult (near 20 years ago they left after 30 years of membership) and it destroyed us. Some people were molested and raped, some others had to hide their sexuality, and ultimately depression claimed the life of one. Now my family views all religion with suspicion, and rightfully so, I think. I don't want them to think I am falling into the same trap all over again. I don't think it would be fair to an already fragile family. Some members will never believe that something like Wicca is not a cult, no matter how much I try to explain. I can understand how 50 years of experience can completely jade you. Not only do I never wish I put a strain on an otherwise perfectly healthy relationship, I see no reason to stress them to no end. Just as I know that everyone in my family keeps a few secrets, I feel that they are entitled to them. I don't pry, they have to tell me then they are ready, if they are ever ready. And if they take it to the grave with them, that is their business, and I refuse to judge them on it.
2) I don't ever want to be thought of as being in someone else's face with my believe system. I once did the door-to-door thing, I don't ever want to be remotely thought of the same way I once was. And in the same strain, I've already lived a life of ostracization and ridicule because of a 'fringe' religion. Not that I am in anyway associating Jehovah Witnesses with Wicca, but I am comparing social acceptance of both of them. Not that I am embarrassed of my spiritual path, I just don't feel that I need to be judged on that aspect of myself anymore.
So if that means living as a Wicca in private, and merely undisclosed in my professional life, I don't see how that could offend anyone, even my Gods. Like I said, I'm not going out of my way to lie to people, and I don't feel it's wrong that they don't know.
3) I haven't officially dedicated myself yet, I feel that I have no genuine claim to anything yet. Also I don't rush things. There is a time and a place for everything and it is neither not here or now. In the spring my family moves to the other side of the nation, and I personally must change towns, because I can't afford to live in the city alone. I feel the fresh start is a good time to dedicate myself, and do things that I haven't done yet.
4) Lastly, I think that my personal relationship with my God(s) is my business no matter what religion it is. It wouldn't matter if I believed in Catholicism, it would never be something I publicly declare, no matter how socially acceptable. I fail to see how it reflects negatively on me. Ultimately, and most importantly, I fail to see how living openly improves my connection to my deity, or living quietly harms it.
I don't feel the need to even to wear a pentagram, because I am always wearing it on the inside. It still affects everything else I do. How I recycle, what foods I buy, how I treat other people, talking public transport. Nor do I work for a company whose policies result in negative things, towards animals, other people, or the environment. Somewhere in the back of my mind I am always thinking "Doing this will make me a better person because I do it with purpose and feeling, and to minimize harm."
Wicca is such a personal religion anyways, why can't that also mean private? I don't feel I have lost anything by it. I have managed to make many connections through discreet methods.
My feelings are no less real because I do not share them or verbalize them with everyone else. I feel it is my right to be selective.
I would never assume that living privately is the best way. We are all different people with different backgrounds, and different personalities.
I mean Wicca is not the only thing I am private about. I do not discuss my sex life or lack thereof with anyone, my health, nor my past, normally. I just feel that I needed to explain and stress that honesty is not always the best policy, depending on circumstances.
Note: I realize no one is personally attacking me, I'm just trying to get my point across clearly.
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:51 pm
I have been following this thread for a while, I have agree with some people and disagree with others. Everyone has made good points, but I think that you have made your point in a very well written manner. I enjoy this particular religion because it gives one breathing room. That is your opinion and you are fully entitled to it. I personally don't go out shouting to the world that I am a Wiccan.
Here is what I believe about religion in general (I am not out to offend anyone out there)
I think that religions are nothing to fight over. All religions are doing the same thing in very different ways. Worshiping the God(s) [Whatever the case may be] for what they have been given and what they may recieve. Nobody can really know who is right and wrong. We can only chose the religion that feels most natural to us. I want to scream at the people who try to shove their beliefs in my face. Who are they (who am I) to tell people what to believe when we don't really know.
Like I said I am no out to offend anyone. sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:25 pm
In Response to Rebo
Who said anything about fighting? I meant only that no one should feel like they have to/should keep themselves secret, for any reason. Yikes.
In Response to ZsaZsa:
I understand where you're coming from. My heart is heavy with your words, but they are yours to give and mine to receive. I shouldn't have to say, however, that had you been more upfront with your reasons for secrecy, it could be better understood.
No matter how much pain or strife or schism the truth causes, it deserves to be told. We all deserve to know what our truth is, and all those pertaining to us. Because really, our "feelings" for things are still for them. They only exist because of that person. Parents deserve to know their children, friends deserve to know each other, and no secrets should be between them.
When I came out, I made a promise that I would always be honest with my feelings to myself. I would look beyond what I wanted to feel and into what I really felt. When Mama died, I promised I would never hide what I was and what I felt from anyone else, even if that cost me friends, potential and existent.
Why put yourself at risk? Better to be at risk than to live a lie. Or to live in the shadows, half-living, always worrying if someone's figured it out, or found out. Always keeping tabs on who knows what, and always calculating exactly what to say. Is that any way to live? I don't think so. So I changed.
Defiantly open? As soon say flamboyant. Perhaps you're right, it's got it's fair share of detriment. But at least then you know you don't have it wrong.
Maybe you have a point--your family might not be able to deal with it. Even so...I think they have a right to know who you are. Not to say that you're connection with god(s) requires complete honesty with others--but consider this: it does require complete honesty with them.
Dedication to the gods requires giving oneself over to them. That is what worship means--because to praise something as exalted beyond all other things, one must love and honor it. Each requires honesty, and neither can thrive without openness. Love is not something that can be kept secret--it simply can't be. You say that truth without the consideration of consequences is detrimental? On the contrary, for anything good and true and real to exist, truth must be revealed. Even the ugliest truth is better than the most beautiful lie.
Sorry if that's rough, but it is what it is--the truth.
Love and Vale,
-LD
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:09 pm
sorry, I have issues. I'm working on them. I can get a little defensive sometimes for apparently no reason. A couple of people have peeved me off recently.
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:45 pm
Don't we all have issues? And annoying people? It's just about resolving the issues we can, and enduring those we can't. Like, today, I told him. Issue resolved. It wasn't easy, but it was the right thing to do. Hold on let me quote this.... My decision to tell him: Leavaros And with David...I think I understand now. Just a little better, what I must do. Baka's thread helped me some--maybe opened my eyes a little. The time for ambiguity is done, and I will not lie to him. But I have yet to decide if I am to broach the subject. I have the strength, and the courage, there can be no doubting that. Not anymore. And I have reason to defend my stance. (Not to mention passion.) But do I have right? Who am I to burden him with my feelings? Would he want to know? But isn't that really beside the point? He deserves to know, he has a right to know, and no one is entitled to ignorance, and no one is entitled to keep anyone else in ignorance to things that directly concern them. Not even me. Not even in self-defense. Not even if I get hurt. I refuse to lie to him, I refuse to talk to him without meeting his eyes, openly and honestly. I know that I might get hurt. I know that he might get hurt. But that is the chance we take with human interaction--with all interaction. The gardener knows that in holding the rose he chances the thorn. But the rose is worth the little jabs for all its beauty and charm. And no gloves are humanproof. And I wouldn't want them to be--its skin to skin with me, always and forever. If he takes it poorly, well then that's his problem to deal with. Really, it is our problem. I hold the cards, and I'm tired of coyness and subtlety and deceit and opinion. Even if this course of action is wrong, I will follow it to its end. Maybe learn a new lesson. Like trickery, or deceit. After telling him [and how he reacted]: Leavaros Better than expected. He didn't freak out or anything. In fact, he was really cool about it. I don't really think he gets it, because he thinks that when I said "I like you", I meant "You're cute". While that tidbit might be true, it goes a lot farther than that. *sigh* I think what really decided him was when I told him about my promise to Mama.... You know...by the end of it, it wasn't even about me liking him. It was about being honest to someone I care about in regards to my feelings for them--and how they would react to that honesty. In both respects, I am extremely pleased. Really, I think that that honesty and open affection goes beyond gay and straight. I think that my respect for him and my admiration for him demanded that I be true to those feelings that had become a part of our relationship. Honestly, it might have been his body that got my attention, but it was his friendly attitude and helpful spirit that won me over. I hope that one day, he'll understand that. And while I was on a roll, I confessed my feelings to Taylor, a close friend of mine who has always been there for me. I told her I was so glad that we were friends--which resulted in multiple hugs, a ten-minute conversation, and promises to keep emailing one another. And to Henson, my Heart-Father and Latin teacher, who I have unfortunately become more distant from, that he is perhaps the most intelligent, wonderful person I know. And to Haylie, my perfect, beautiful Haylie, my brilliant and wonderful and kind Haylie, my undying affection and sincerest wishes for luck in the race for Homecoming Queen. She deserves it most of all. But for today, enough ground has been covered. I think it's okay now to rest knowing that I have so many friends guarding my back. I'm the luckiest guy in the world: tonight, the whole world is full of wonder and love and friends closer than family, and the warmth of open affection and honest admiration. What do you think? All of this has left me warm and fuzzy inside, tingly and cool on the outside, and I can't help but smile at the thought: it's been a great day. Love and Vale, and a big thanks to those who actually took the time to read this! ~Leavaros Dapple
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