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 Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:49 pm
Ri-san I believe I posted an abortion thread in this guild a while ago... ya i know someone did. iono who exactly but i know that someone did cause i remember posting on it.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:39 pm
Mystic_moon15 I mean if God had no intentions of us having the babies then he likely wouldnt give then to us. That is a good point, that God could simply stop the child from being born if it was to be murdered before it could have a chance to live, and he could "place it elsewhere" (give it to another family.) But that would go against free will, us having the choice...
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:42 pm
Mechanism I think that there is a bigger issue here which your quandary is addressing: how can people have free will when God is omniscient? -If God is omniscient, God knows what decision you are about to make. -There is only one true outcome to your decision. -If you did not choose that one thing, God's 'knowledge' is false, and God wasn't omniscient to begin with. -If you can only choose one thing, you don't have free will. So then, how is it possible to have more than one possible potential outcome for your decision, while there is only one true outcome (which God knows)? God is omniscient, yes, and He knows what choice we're going to make. But He doesn't MAKE us choose it; the problem is still ours to resolve. The two are not contradictory.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:47 pm
Sinner NewAgeLink Sinner According to that premise, fetuses aren't alive (since they haven't yet had a "chance to live") so the entire issue is null anyways. No... I'm not saying we get souls when we're born. I'm saying, "What if God only gives us souls at conception if He knows we're going to have a chance to live?" By saying "have a chance to live", you are saying that the time after conception and before birth (or before being aborted) isn't life. Otherwise, they did have a chance to live. It was just quite brief. Sort of, but not quite. That period of time IS life, but not enough of a life to justify being given a soul. I'm looking at the overall lifelines, here: |pregnancy---|born ---- life ---- death| |pregnancy---|X -- death| The latter is a brief portion of the timeline of life, but it wouldn't be fair to give that human a soul. D'you get what I'm saying?
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:49 pm
daughter-warrior-princess yeah, this is kind of interesting...although very confusing! well, ive sat and thought about it and have come to the conclusion that life begins at conception, or so i believe anyway, and yes although God does know what will happen, i think He still gives the 'baby' a soul, as when it is aborted (bless it) it goes up to heaven for eternal life, but it couldn't do so without a soul, could it? well that's my view anyway... 3nodding Yes, that is always a possibility, that God gives everyone souls at conception, and abortion is murder. Death T-2 Why would He allow a fruitless conception? I really don't think God would do that. As I've said in response to a previous post, to NOT allow it would be denying us free will. Death T-2 Personally, I think all children that died before the age of accountability goes to be with Him; fetuses included. Yes, I've heard that thesis before; the Catholic church believes that, I think.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:53 pm
RiebenRyoshi ... I have wondered [that] all my life. Like, if God knows what will happen, and what we will choose, yet gives us the free will to choose it, then doesn't he know that people are going to hell before they do?Seems that way, yeah. RiebenRyoshi And what does he do about it? He's "already" done all that He can, spreading His message... it is/was their choice whether or not to accept it and believe in it. He's the one who casts them down into Hell, by the way. Yes, I've thought that, and so has my Aunt; that's one of her pressing questions, "So why doesn't He just end it now, rapture, and get it over with? I know I won't understand it now; I plan to ask God in Heaven." I guess that's the best response to that question.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:55 pm
Ri-san I believe I posted an abortion thread in this guild a while ago... This isn't just 'an abortion thread', though... This is about my particular question in regard to abortion.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:14 pm
NewAgeLink Sort of, but not quite. That period of time IS life, but not enough of a life to justify being given a soul. I'm looking at the overall lifelines, here: |pregnancy---|born ---- life ---- death| |pregnancy---|X -- death| The latter is a brief portion of the timeline of life, but it wouldn't be fair to give that human a soul. D'you get what I'm saying? So how about if the baby is born, but dies three seconds later? Or three days? Or three years? How is nine months of life less deserving of a soul than any of these?
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:12 pm
i think only God knows about the whole souls into aborted babies and such
who CAN really know right?
its just another mystery of Gods that we wont know until we see him in heaven ^_^
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:09 pm
NewAgeLink See the thread starting here: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?p=28278622#28278622 (goes on for a page and a half.) My posts: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?p=28278622#28278622 Firstly, I have a problem with the names of the sides. "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice" are too propagandized for my liking. I prefer "Pro-Abortion" and "Anti-Abortion." I'm Anti-Abortion, but I have developed (or been given by Satan?) a rather confusing thought/perspective on it, which muddies things a bit: God knows everything. Even with our "free will", He knows what we're going to choose to do. Why would He give souls to children He knew would never have a chance to live? I can't see that He would. While this doesn't excuse my behavior or choice in the matter, it does seem to excuse me from complaining or campaigning against the matter. I was going to quote all my posts from that thread, but decided if you really want to see them, go there and read. (Me? Lazy? Never...) I'm against abortion because it is taking lifes of children who have had time to live. I like the example of if a murderer kills a women and she has a baby and that baby dies that person who killed the mother will get tried for 2 counts of murder not one. So why is abortion still legal. why cant they just put the baby up for adoption. thats my opinion on abortion. From Gomez
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:01 am
NewAgeLink Mechanism ...So then, how is it possible to have more than one possible potential outcome for your decision, while there is only one true outcome (which God knows)? God is omniscient, yes, and He knows what choice we're going to make. But He doesn't MAKE us choose it; the problem is still ours to resolve. The two are not contradictory. God doesn't have to force a decision to contradict free will. See here: Omniscience implies [only one possible outcome for a decision].
Free will implies [more than one possible outcome for a decision].(Because, if there's not more than one possible choice, you don't have a choice to begin with.)
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:18 am
Sinner So how about if the baby is born, but dies three seconds later? Or three days? Or three years? That "dying before the age of accountability" thing that was mentioned earlier.
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:21 am
Seority its just another mystery of Gods that we wont know until we see him in heaven ^_^ Yeah, but still. I wish I knew. sad Mechanism God doesn't have to force a decision to contradict free will. Yes, He does. Mechanism See here: Omniscience implies [only one possible outcome for a decision].No, it means He knows which outcome you will decide to enable. Mechanism Free will implies [more than one possible outcome for a decision]. No, free will means you will decide which one to enable.
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:25 pm
NewAgeLink Mechanism See here: Omniscience implies [only one possible outcome for a decision].No, it means He knows which outcome you will decide to enable. Which implies there is really only one choice to be made, unless you can go against what the omniscient being knows (which you cannot). Thus, omniscience implies only one option. Quote: Mechanism Free will implies [more than one possible outcome for a decision]. No, free will means you will decide which one to enable. You do realize what you said, does imply that there may be more than one outcome? If you can choose something, there are at least two outcomes.
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:33 pm
NewAgeLink Sinner So how about if the baby is born, but dies three seconds later? Or three days? Or three years? That "dying before the age of accountability" thing that was mentioned earlier. So my dead sister didn't have a soul?
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