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 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:58 pm
Also, Rhed: I think you're talking about the Greek Underworld; Tartarus vs. Elysium. I'm not convinced that That's what the afterlife looks like, even if it paints a nice picture that people seem to be fond of. I'm talking about a much more spiritual "realm" where it's as simple as "God is Here, and he's not There, and Here where he is we call 'heaven', There where he isn't we call 'hell'. Being apart from God (hell) is the torture. Being apart from the creator, fulfiller, and lover who wants nothing more than to be With You is the torture while Being With God is Heaven. Being With the God who created you, wants you, and loves you is Heaven. That's where some of the scriptural references to "heaven on earth" become realistic; times when we can meet God while we're still alive, here on Earth, and of course the times where God isn't present, and we suffer living hell. Know what I mean? It sorta becomes less subjective that way. lol it's interesting how that works; when God is the standard, How we feel about certain things becomes almost moot, and life becomes much more about God. Than, doing things through God, or choosing not to, is what makes somebody "good" or "evil".
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:02 pm
Cabron LaSwan I don't exactly agree with this. I mean, I don't agree with rape, but usually it's about power; instead of being a 'madman with no conscience', he could be a very frustrated person who feels powerless in his own life and needed to feel like he was in control of something just to make him feel like it was worth going on - I'm not saying I condone getting that from a helpless woman who doesn't want to give it to him, just that it doesn't necessarily mean that he's insane and incapable of empathy.
I don't believe that people have the capacity to be inherently malicious or spiteful for no good reason; I just think they sometimes fail to explore their own feelings thoroughly and end up blaming their unhappiness on others - others they then feel deserve to be punished for doing this to them. I'm not saying that either the rapist or the shooter blamed their unhappiness on the people they hurt directly (I'd venture that people who do things like that are often lashing back at society in general), just that actions like those are usually born from a desire to spread or return the hurt that they're feeling, and not a "hey I think I'm gonna go shoot some people today just to be a d**k, and then tonight I'm gonna beat my wife and let Gaston drink me under the table" kind of mentality. I really don't think there are any 'villains' in the world, just poorly-thought-out decisions and dismissed or unspoken reasons. lol You're very much correct. That was my mistake, I didn't mean to imply that people are crazy and evil with no purpose. You're right, everybody is a victim; everybody who does 'evil' things, does so out of their hurt. In that way, they Aren't doing Godly things. When they're taking out their pain on others, they're acting outside of God's will and purpose, which, by my current definition, means they're acting 'Evil'. But you're right, nobody is inherently "evil".
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:11 pm
Medeus I am a strong believer in the God of the Bible; the same God of Isaac, and Moses, and later John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ. I believe that God is the creator of Everything, and that he created us all as individuals because he loved is that much. I believe that God is a being totally outside our realm of existence, who loves to hang out with us everyday, sometimes beyond our knowledge. God is the maker of everything, therefore he is the one who decides what comes from Him (good) and what comes from Us (more often then not, Evil). lol That's my spiel....I guess I could keep going, but you get the point. My problem with the Christian interpretation of God as an external being is mostly a logical fallacy; real love is unconditional. Giving your creation free will and then saying they have to obey you to go to heaven puts a condition on God's love. A truly loving god would never revoke his benevolence because it went unreturned, and would never forsake something weaker than him just because they don't always heed his advice. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, hell simply can't exist. Not saying I think what you believe is wrong (or even that you believe in hell as an afterlife, actually, I dunno if you do), just that the way it's presented by the Bible doesn't really make sense to me.
Anyway, I gotta go; Sean needs me to go up to Microplay and do some trade-ins. Be back later.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:23 pm
Cabron LaSwan Medeus I am a strong believer in the God of the Bible; the same God of Isaac, and Moses, and later John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ. I believe that God is the creator of Everything, and that he created us all as individuals because he loved is that much. I believe that God is a being totally outside our realm of existence, who loves to hang out with us everyday, sometimes beyond our knowledge. God is the maker of everything, therefore he is the one who decides what comes from Him (good) and what comes from Us (more often then not, Evil). lol That's my spiel....I guess I could keep going, but you get the point. My problem with the Christian interpretation of God as an external being is mostly a logical fallacy; real love is unconditional. Giving your creation free will and then saying they have to obey you to go to heaven puts a condition on God's love. A truly loving god would never revoke his benevolence because it went unreturned, and would never forsake something weaker than him just because they don't always heed his advice. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, hell simply can't exist. Not saying I think what you believe is wrong (or even that you believe in hell as an afterlife, actually, I dunno if you do), just that the way it's presented by the Bible doesn't really make sense to me.
Anyway, I gotta go; Sean needs me to go up to Microplay and do some trade-ins. Be back later. I understand what you're saying, but think about this: it isn't true love if it's forced. He gives us the free will and ability to love him back, because if he forced us to choose him, it wouldn't be true love at all. And I also understand how that may sound like a condition but I think you're still talking about the Greek Underworld. Remember how I defined Heaven and Hell. We have to choose whether we want to be With Him, or if we want to Go on without him. If we choose to go on without him, than by definition we are living in 'hell', because "hell" is everywhere that God is not. Not a place with a geographic location, or scenery that's usually on fire. A truly loving God lets us choose, and is heartbroken when we choose to stay away from him...It's not meant to be a condition, or a requirement, but it can only be as simple as "Choose to be with me, or choose to be without me". Know what I mean? That's the way I understand it. I've read the bible myself, and trust me That's where I understand it from. haha I don't know what else you've heard, but this is what I got from it.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:33 pm
Medeus Cabron LaSwan Medeus I am a strong believer in the God of the Bible; the same God of Isaac, and Moses, and later John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ. I believe that God is the creator of Everything, and that he created us all as individuals because he loved is that much. I believe that God is a being totally outside our realm of existence, who loves to hang out with us everyday, sometimes beyond our knowledge. God is the maker of everything, therefore he is the one who decides what comes from Him (good) and what comes from Us (more often then not, Evil). lol That's my spiel....I guess I could keep going, but you get the point. My problem with the Christian interpretation of God as an external being is mostly a logical fallacy; real love is unconditional. Giving your creation free will and then saying they have to obey you to go to heaven puts a condition on God's love. A truly loving god would never revoke his benevolence because it went unreturned, and would never forsake something weaker than him just because they don't always heed his advice. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, hell simply can't exist. Not saying I think what you believe is wrong (or even that you believe in hell as an afterlife, actually, I dunno if you do), just that the way it's presented by the Bible doesn't really make sense to me.
Anyway, I gotta go; Sean needs me to go up to Microplay and do some trade-ins. Be back later. I understand what you're saying, but think about this: it isn't true love if it's forced. He gives us the free will and ability to love him back, because if he forced us to choose him, it wouldn't be true love at all. And I also understand how that may sound like a condition but I think you're still talking about the Greek Underworld. Remember how I defined Heaven and Hell. We have to choose whether we want to be With Him, or if we want to Go on without him. If we choose to go on without him, than by definition we are living in 'hell', because "hell" is everywhere that God is not. Not a place with a geographic location, or scenery that's usually on fire. A truly loving God lets us choose, and is heartbroken when we choose to stay away from him...It's not meant to be a condition, or a requirement, but it can only be as simple as "Choose to be with me, or choose to be without me". Know what I mean? That's the way I understand it. I've read the bible myself, and trust me That's where I understand it from. haha I don't know what else you've heard, but this is what I got from it. I think that you and I believe the same basic thing, but relate to it differently, because I agree with you completely, but my thought process just takes its own route. The way I see it is that heaven and hell are states of mind, and that you are the judge of yourself; through your thoughts and emotions (the joy of giving, for example, or the way guilt never really goes away) you reward or punish yourself for your actions, in your own mind, based on what you believe to be right and wrong. That's what I think they mean by God's judgment; I think that since our true nature is benevolent, when we know we have hurt others, we will probably be tormented by remorse for our actions until we find a way to make amends and forgive ourselves. So choosing to be with God, to me, means to always do what you believe is right so you never have to regret the choices you made, I guess. I mean, if you choose to live without love, of course you're going to be unhappy.
Have you ever read the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch? It's basically a book written by a lifelong Christian (I think he actually could be a JW or a Catholic or something, but it's definitely a Bible-based faith) who claims he sat down, frustrated with life, writing out a pissed-off prayer, and then God just...gave him all the answers. He says it's like his hand just started writing on its own. They wrote back and forth for hours.
A lot of the Christian mainstream seems to be denouncing him as a fraud and calling it the work of the devil and all of that, but a lot of the things in it made a lot of sense to me, not, like, just about God but about life, and the meaning behind it. Even if you don't agree with any of it, you might find it an interesting read.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:46 pm
Cabron LaSwan Medeus Cabron LaSwan Medeus I am a strong believer in the God of the Bible; the same God of Isaac, and Moses, and later John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ. I believe that God is the creator of Everything, and that he created us all as individuals because he loved is that much. I believe that God is a being totally outside our realm of existence, who loves to hang out with us everyday, sometimes beyond our knowledge. God is the maker of everything, therefore he is the one who decides what comes from Him (good) and what comes from Us (more often then not, Evil). lol That's my spiel....I guess I could keep going, but you get the point. My problem with the Christian interpretation of God as an external being is mostly a logical fallacy; real love is unconditional. Giving your creation free will and then saying they have to obey you to go to heaven puts a condition on God's love. A truly loving god would never revoke his benevolence because it went unreturned, and would never forsake something weaker than him just because they don't always heed his advice. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, hell simply can't exist. Not saying I think what you believe is wrong (or even that you believe in hell as an afterlife, actually, I dunno if you do), just that the way it's presented by the Bible doesn't really make sense to me.
Anyway, I gotta go; Sean needs me to go up to Microplay and do some trade-ins. Be back later. I understand what you're saying, but think about this: it isn't true love if it's forced. He gives us the free will and ability to love him back, because if he forced us to choose him, it wouldn't be true love at all. And I also understand how that may sound like a condition but I think you're still talking about the Greek Underworld. Remember how I defined Heaven and Hell. We have to choose whether we want to be With Him, or if we want to Go on without him. If we choose to go on without him, than by definition we are living in 'hell', because "hell" is everywhere that God is not. Not a place with a geographic location, or scenery that's usually on fire. A truly loving God lets us choose, and is heartbroken when we choose to stay away from him...It's not meant to be a condition, or a requirement, but it can only be as simple as "Choose to be with me, or choose to be without me". Know what I mean? That's the way I understand it. I've read the bible myself, and trust me That's where I understand it from. haha I don't know what else you've heard, but this is what I got from it. I think that you and I believe the same basic thing, but relate to it differently, because I agree with you completely, but my thought process just takes its own route. The way I see it is that heaven and hell are states of mind, and that you are the judge of yourself; through your thoughts and emotions (the joy of giving, for example, or the way guilt never really goes away) you reward or punish yourself for your actions, in your own mind, based on what you believe to be right and wrong. That's what I think they mean by God's judgment; I think that since our true nature is benevolent, so when we know we have hurt others, we will probably be tormented by remorse for our actions until we find a way to make amends and forgive ourselves.
Have you ever read the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch? It's basically a book written by a lifelong Christian (I think) who claims he sat down, frustrated with life, writing out a pissed-off prayer, and then God just...gave him all the answers. He says it's like his hand just started writing on its own. They wrote back and forth for hours.
A lot of the Christian mainstream seems to be denouncing him as a fraud and calling it the work of the devil and all of that, but a lot of the things in it made a lot of sense to me, not, like, just about God but about life, and the meaning behind it. Even if you don't agree with any of it, you might find it an interesting read. lol I don't totally agree with you there, but for the sake of not starting a useless argument, I understand what you're saying. Hey, if that works for you than who am I to say you're doing it wrong? razz Ooh, I have another metaphor that is personally my Favorite, but I don't know if I have enough time to get it down right now. @_@ I think you might be able to appreciate this one, and it makes a LOT of sense with what I'm talking about, so if you're curious later make sure to remind me (if I dont remember myself. lol) I have not read that book, but I remember hearing about it. I'll definitely look into that sometime. If we're recommending books now, have you ever heard of "The Shack"? It's about a man who gets a letter in the mail with an address, and he goes to visit it. He arrives at an 'abandoned' shack and he's wondering what its all about; than he actually meets God in the flesh and he/they provide him with some really basic fundamental principles about Christianity and living a God-filled life, and even dealing with his daughter's murder. It's written as an autobiography, so there is a man out there who actually experienced this to some degree (though at the end it's unclear whether it was a coma-dream or actual events, while it's simultaneously pointed out that either instance doesn't make the experience, or the lessons learned, any less true....) It's a real good read, and if nothing else, by the end you've learned a great deal about what I believe, and about what healthy christianity is actually about (because trust me, there are some 'christian' people out there who do a lot of things that have nothing to do with God...) and that took a whole lot longer to describe than it prolly should have. haha!
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Medeus Cabron LaSwan Medeus Cabron LaSwan Medeus I am a strong believer in the God of the Bible; the same God of Isaac, and Moses, and later John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ. I believe that God is the creator of Everything, and that he created us all as individuals because he loved is that much. I believe that God is a being totally outside our realm of existence, who loves to hang out with us everyday, sometimes beyond our knowledge. God is the maker of everything, therefore he is the one who decides what comes from Him (good) and what comes from Us (more often then not, Evil). lol That's my spiel....I guess I could keep going, but you get the point. My problem with the Christian interpretation of God as an external being is mostly a logical fallacy; real love is unconditional. Giving your creation free will and then saying they have to obey you to go to heaven puts a condition on God's love. A truly loving god would never revoke his benevolence because it went unreturned, and would never forsake something weaker than him just because they don't always heed his advice. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, hell simply can't exist. Not saying I think what you believe is wrong (or even that you believe in hell as an afterlife, actually, I dunno if you do), just that the way it's presented by the Bible doesn't really make sense to me.
Anyway, I gotta go; Sean needs me to go up to Microplay and do some trade-ins. Be back later. I understand what you're saying, but think about this: it isn't true love if it's forced. He gives us the free will and ability to love him back, because if he forced us to choose him, it wouldn't be true love at all. And I also understand how that may sound like a condition but I think you're still talking about the Greek Underworld. Remember how I defined Heaven and Hell. We have to choose whether we want to be With Him, or if we want to Go on without him. If we choose to go on without him, than by definition we are living in 'hell', because "hell" is everywhere that God is not. Not a place with a geographic location, or scenery that's usually on fire. A truly loving God lets us choose, and is heartbroken when we choose to stay away from him...It's not meant to be a condition, or a requirement, but it can only be as simple as "Choose to be with me, or choose to be without me". Know what I mean? That's the way I understand it. I've read the bible myself, and trust me That's where I understand it from. haha I don't know what else you've heard, but this is what I got from it. I think that you and I believe the same basic thing, but relate to it differently, because I agree with you completely, but my thought process just takes its own route. The way I see it is that heaven and hell are states of mind, and that you are the judge of yourself; through your thoughts and emotions (the joy of giving, for example, or the way guilt never really goes away) you reward or punish yourself for your actions, in your own mind, based on what you believe to be right and wrong. That's what I think they mean by God's judgment; I think that since our true nature is benevolent, so when we know we have hurt others, we will probably be tormented by remorse for our actions until we find a way to make amends and forgive ourselves.
Have you ever read the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch? It's basically a book written by a lifelong Christian (I think) who claims he sat down, frustrated with life, writing out a pissed-off prayer, and then God just...gave him all the answers. He says it's like his hand just started writing on its own. They wrote back and forth for hours.
A lot of the Christian mainstream seems to be denouncing him as a fraud and calling it the work of the devil and all of that, but a lot of the things in it made a lot of sense to me, not, like, just about God but about life, and the meaning behind it. Even if you don't agree with any of it, you might find it an interesting read. lol I don't totally agree with you there, but for the sake of not starting a useless argument, I understand what you're saying. Hey, if that works for you than who am I to say you're doing it wrong? razz Ooh, I have another metaphor that is personally my Favorite, but I don't know if I have enough time to get it down right now. @_@ I think you might be able to appreciate this one, and it makes a LOT of sense with what I'm talking about, so if you're curious later make sure to remind me (if I dont remember myself. lol) I have not read that book, but I remember hearing about it. I'll definitely look into that sometime. If we're recommending books now, have you ever heard of "The Shack"? It's about a man who gets a letter in the mail with an address, and he goes to visit it. He arrives at an 'abandoned' shack and he's wondering what its all about; than he actually meets God in the flesh and he/they provide him with some really basic fundamental principles about Christianity and living a God-filled life, and even dealing with his daughter's murder. It's written as an autobiography, so there is a man out there who actually experienced this to some degree (though at the end it's unclear whether it was a coma-dream or actual events, while it's simultaneously pointed out that either instance doesn't make the experience, or the lessons learned, any less true....) It's a real good read, and if nothing else, by the end you've learned a great deal about what I believe, and about what healthy christianity is actually about (because trust me, there are some 'christian' people out there who do a lot of things that have nothing to do with God...) and that took a whole lot longer to describe than it prolly should have. haha! You know, I haven't read the book but I have definitely heard something like this before. I think I heard about it as a movie though; was it ever a movie?
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:22 pm
You're thinking of Caddyshack.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:29 pm
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:01 pm
This page was a lot of tl;dr until 'Legro posted.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:44 am
The entire last page and a half was just a wall of text that I didn't care for. Sorry.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:19 am
Oh? You're over me finally?
Good - stay that way.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:03 am
Those conversations were interesting, but I can't seem to find the energy to participate in them anymore. I think it's because 1) I understand I'm a fallible creature who can interpret stuff poorly, and B) Even if I DID come to an understanding, it's like "Cool, I'm aware of the true nature of God....guess I'll go make some hot dogs."
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:48 am
xD Noice guys.
It can be life-changing if it's approached with the right mindset, but it happens.
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:06 am
It really can be. But I don't think there's anything wrong with just wanting to live in the moment as well. I wish I could put my thoughts aside and do that more often; sometimes I feel like I'm so focused on the meaning behind something that I miss the finer points of the actual experience. I mean, no matter what the answer is, you get it when you die anyway, so why worry about it now?
Sean told me a story about one of his friend's sisters; she played the same six lottery numbers religiously for years, and one week she decided she wasn't going to buy a ticket. Curiosity got the better of her, and that week she checked the winning numbers and they were hers. All six. He said she went crazy. Never been the same. Wouldn't you? But then again, why would you check?
Maybe there are some things we're just better off not knowing.
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