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 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:15 pm
xxEternallyBluexx These are the odds I was looking for: http://www.mankinds-last-hope.org/probabilityofearth.html Everything I wrote applies to this, too. It applies to all the "it's too improbable" arguments. Quote: They still haven't found that process though. If they don't know the process, then why isn't it random? Because natural processes are not fully random. And we actually know parts of the process, for example how amino acids form. Quote: I guess I am. So how would I argue from a view where we don't have value? As long as I believe we're all here for a reason rather then through unknown processes, I'm not sure I can. I'm not saying we shouldn't assign value, I value our existence very much. I was just pointing out, that value doesn't make it more improbable (the 4 aces analogy). It just seems more improbable or amazing to us. Quote: They didn't have to stabilize as they were, and if they hadn't, we wouldn't be here. They didn't have to, but they did. Well, given the starting conditions, they pretty much were bound to stabilize like that. Just as a ball is bound to fall if you drop it. But now I'm getting into the whole "is the universe deterministic" question, which I'm not going to discuss here. razz
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:43 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx These are the odds I was looking for: http://www.mankinds-last-hope.org/probabilityofearth.html Everything I wrote applies to this, too. It applies to all the "it's too improbable" arguments. Quote: They still haven't found that process though. If they don't know the process, then why isn't it random? Because natural processes are not fully random. And we actually know parts of the process, for example how amino acids form. Quote: I guess I am. So how would I argue from a view where we don't have value? As long as I believe we're all here for a reason rather then through unknown processes, I'm not sure I can. I'm not saying we shouldn't assign value, I value our existence very much. I was just pointing out, that value doesn't make it more improbable (the 4 aces analogy). It just seems more improbable or amazing to us. Quote: They didn't have to stabilize as they were, and if they hadn't, we wouldn't be here. They didn't have to, but they did. Well, given the starting conditions, they pretty much were bound to stabilize like that. Just as a ball is bound to fall if you drop it. But now I'm getting into the whole "is the universe deterministic" question, which I'm not going to discuss here. razz Not really...If you don't know the process, then how do you know it isn't random? Who says they aren't? And did you explain the process by which amino acids form? Because I can't find it in your previous posts. What does my valuing human life have to do with the argument? What makes it 'bound to stabilize like that'? How do you know that if you don't know the processes by which it happened?
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:02 pm
xxEternallyBluexx And did you explain the process by which amino acids form? Because I can't find it in your previous posts. I can't go about explaining every detail, it's not really viable, there'd be too much stuff to explain. I just gave an example. You can look it up yourself if you really want to know about it. The main point I am making (and I'd like if you stuck to addressing that point for now), is about these "impossible probabilities" and why it's wrong to calculate them like that. I think I made it pretty clear, maybe you should read through the card example again. Quote: What does my valuing human life have to do with the argument? Because this makes us (from our own perspective) the preferable outcome. Just like the 4 aces from the deck of cards. I'm not sure you're really understanding this analogy. Could you somehow indicate that you get it, maybe explain it back to me in your own words? smile
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:05 pm
Im A Little Pea divineseraph Science doesn't disprove anything or make it any less magical, or prove anything about anything besides what it is observing. That is not science's task, and this is a large fallacy I find with atheism based on science- They go by the premise that if we understand how something works physically, we know that it can have no source or has no meaning. It looks at things through a vacuum to understand how it works, and the fallacy is thinking of this vacuum of meaning and context as reality. What you did right now was an attempt to disprove something I've never even said. We were discussing the different circumstances that could have brought Atheism to spread. Science is NOT a tool of Atheism. It isn't made for it. But some parts of it do put in question the things people thought about the world before. This is ALL I've said. I know this, and that is what I was saying. It causes people to question, but often the questions or answers offered by science do not take into account context or meaning. Psychology, for example, makes the mind out to be something very precise and measurable. It forgets, however, the context in which a mind sits. I have trouble thinking of specific examples where it is the case, but I have heard many times of people who lost faith because of the scientific method. I say it again, however, that they generally took the scientific study in a vacuum and never came out- What we learn through observation is learned in a vacuum for the sake of scientific method, and is not an exact replica of all reality as it is so often assumed.
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:10 pm
Im A Little Pea xxEternallyBluexx That's not quite the punishment that Hell for eternity is... Besides that Muslims follow a single prophet, who claimed to have visions that went agauinst two religions that cam before, who didn't persorm miracles and who made a lot of money off it. If Muhammed was so important, there should have been prophecies surrounding him, and more to it then just his word. Jesus, on the other hand, had a lot of prophecies surrounding Him, and He fulfilled them. Those prophecies for the Messiah, not just a plain old prophet. He performed miracles, raised a dead man, came back from the dead Himself, didn't profit from any of it, and said that all who believed He was God's Son, and who repented would be Saved. Following Islam doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. It doesn't in mine too, but then again, no other religion makes any sense to me. And whether or not Muhammad was as inspirational as Jesus was or not, according to Muslim belief Christians do go to hell... So again for me I don't really have somewhere to turn to in order to protect myself 'just in case'. What church are you? I'm just curious because really, I don't know all that much about it. I don't even know the difference between the church my Christian family members are part of from the others. No they don't. The Muslim faith accepts any Abrahamic religion. There is a bit about an imp of some sort that comes to your grave and asks who your prophet is. If you answer Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or what have you, you're set.
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:18 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Artto That's a sneaky. How can I possibly argue with such a statement? If I tell you, that I don't feel any void in my life, and that I don't feel the need for a god, you just say that I do, but I don't realize it. How can anyone possibly argue with that? Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway? Quote: It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. C. S. Lewis Plus the majority of the human race has been unhappy. It's only within the last few centuries a real middle class has developed, and people are expected to be happy and that's more in our country then others. That's why it was usually wealthier people who could afford to be athiests, when there were athiests-they were the ones who wouldn't be destroyed by despair. I'm not the majority, they can be whatever they please. I am far far far far from wealthy. I'm happier not believing in god. Believing in god made me pretty damn depressed. According to my brother, my single mom who barely gets by is in the top 1% wealth wise. He could be wrong, and I'll go check out the statistic, but if it's true, then I bet you're wealthy too. How'd believing in Him do that? Sorry to necro this, but my communist sense is tingling. No, that is absolutely wrong. The top one percent of this country owns about 50% of it. If she's in there, she's near Bill Gates and you own a whole city or two.
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:17 pm
Artto xxEternallyBluexx And did you explain the process by which amino acids form? Because I can't find it in your previous posts. I can't go about explaining every detail, it's not really viable, there'd be too much stuff to explain. I just gave an example. You can look it up yourself if you really want to know about it. The main point I am making (and I'd like if you stuck to addressing that point for now), is about these "impossible probabilities" and why it's wrong to calculate them like that. I think I made it pretty clear, maybe you should read through the card example again. Quote: What does my valuing human life have to do with the argument? Because this makes us (from our own perspective) the preferable outcome. Just like the 4 aces from the deck of cards. I'm not sure you're really understanding this analogy. Could you somehow indicate that you get it, maybe explain it back to me in your own words? smile Sure, teach. You said essentially that the probability after an event doesn't matter because it already happened. But see the odds of having the universe develop the way it has is more like taking many decks, and expecting to draw aces from every one without having them arranged so that it's probable you's draw those aces. There's a lot a more factors then just the amino acids, and there's a lot of processes that have yet to be explained. If that's the case, then wouldn't it make more sense for me to credit the God I know rather then having faith that there's processes out there that explain it all?
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:21 pm
divineseraph xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko xxEternallyBluexx Shiori Miko Who cares if we don't realize it if we're enjoying life anyway? Quote: It is hard to have patience with people who say "There is no death" or "Death doesn't matter." There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. C. S. Lewis Plus the majority of the human race has been unhappy. It's only within the last few centuries a real middle class has developed, and people are expected to be happy and that's more in our country then others. That's why it was usually wealthier people who could afford to be athiests, when there were athiests-they were the ones who wouldn't be destroyed by despair. I'm not the majority, they can be whatever they please. I am far far far far from wealthy. I'm happier not believing in god. Believing in god made me pretty damn depressed. According to my brother, my single mom who barely gets by is in the top 1% wealth wise. He could be wrong, and I'll go check out the statistic, but if it's true, then I bet you're wealthy too. How'd believing in Him do that? Sorry to necro this, but my communist sense is tingling. No, that is absolutely wrong. The top one percent of this country owns about 50% of it. If she's in there, she's near Bill Gates and you own a whole city or two. I thought I might've had it wrong. >.< Thanks. ^^
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:42 am
xxEternallyBluexx Sure, teach. You said essentially that the probability after an event doesn't matter because it already happened. But see the odds of having the universe develop the way it has is more like taking many decks, and expecting to draw aces from every one without having them arranged so that it's probable you's draw those aces. There's a lot a more factors then just the amino acids, and there's a lot of processes that have yet to be explained. If that's the case, then wouldn't it make more sense for me to credit the God I know rather then having faith that there's processes out there that explain it all? Drawing aces, say 5 (or n-times in a row) times in a row, has exactly the same probability than drawing any other specific combination of cards. We just assign more value to the 4x4 aces combination, making it more incredible for us. If we have 5 shuffled decks, and we're pulling out cards from them, A,A,A,A | A,A,A,A | A,A,A,A | A,A,A,A | A,A,A,A has exactly the same probability as J,Q,K,10 | 8,7,J,A | 2,K,K,5 | J,J,A,2 | Q,K,10,2 But most people would rather believe that I pulled out the second combination, because they assign more value to the all aces combination. We value our existence, as we value the 4 aces combination. Again, I'm currently just addressing the probability arguments. As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to fill the gaps in our knowledge with God. It's what a lot of people like to do, though I don't think it's a good idea.
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:31 am
divineseraph No they don't. The Muslim faith accepts any Abrahamic religion. There is a bit about an imp of some sort that comes to your grave and asks who your prophet is. If you answer Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or what have you, you're set. Not quite actually. Muslims do believe Jesus was a real prophet. But they do not believe he was born from god, and the idea of the Holy Trinity is considered Shirk - you could translate this into polytheism, but that's not quite it. Quran 112 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none like unto Him Just one example. In Islam, generally, this idea just doesn't go. There are surely different views on this in general, but really, god not being only one, god taking different forms, to many would simply be contradiction of the very core of Islam.
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:27 am
Im A Little Pea divineseraph No they don't. The Muslim faith accepts any Abrahamic religion. There is a bit about an imp of some sort that comes to your grave and asks who your prophet is. If you answer Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or what have you, you're set. Not quite actually. Muslims do believe Jesus was a real prophet. But they do not believe he was born from god, and the idea of the Holy Trinity is considered Shirk - you could translate this into polytheism, but that's not quite it. Quran 112 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 4. And there is none like unto Him Just one example. In Islam, generally, this idea just doesn't go. There are surely different views on this in general, but really, god not being only one, god taking different forms, to many would simply be contradiction of the very core of Islam. And? That doesn't mean that they don't allow the christian religion, it means that they don't think Jesus was God.
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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:44 am
According to Islam there can not be another god. God can only be one, and he doesn't take other forms. Thinking Jesus could have been, in any way, god, goes against the Muslim belief. It's a pretty big contradiction. Here's another one to prove the point. Quran 5:72 Those who say, 'God is the Messiah, son of Mary,' have defied God. The Messiah himself said, 'Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:56 pm
pirate Hey. new here. I'm a christian, and I don't go to church or have my nose stuck in the Bible all the time. I'm no paranoid obsessive nerd like ned flanders. but I believe that there is a god that created us and everything in the universe. I don't think the big bang explains the beauty of a sunrise with all the pinks and oranges and lavender colors, nor the beauty of the stars and the moon at night. Something must be behind this beauty, must've made that for us to marvel at. I can't quote from the bible or anything like I've seen some of you guys do. But I believe that there is a heaven where you go when you have lived a life of honesty and the rest. And a hell when you do exactly the opposite. To the atheists, i wonder why you choose not to believe in god? isn't it nice to think that there's someone up there who loves you more than anyone or anything else can love? isn't it nice to know there is a place to go after you die where you can live in eternal happiness? A reason to live? Riddle me this. But I respect your beliefs and i won't try to shove a bible up your nose and tell you you're living a lie. No, i won't do that. And i expect you do the same. I expect that you respect my beliefs and others, and that you don't go about downing people who aren't atheists are trying to make them one. It's up to them. That is all I have to say.
GO GREEN! THIS PLANET'S ALL WE HAVE!
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:27 pm
piratemage12 To the atheists, i wonder why you choose not to believe in god? isn't it nice to think that there's someone up there who loves you more than anyone or anything else can love? isn't it nice to know there is a place to go after you die where you can live in eternal happiness? A reason to live? Riddle me this. I believe what I think is true, not what feels nice. Belief is not a choice, it's something I have to be convinced of. Quote: But I respect your beliefs and i won't try to shove a bible up your nose and tell you you're living a lie. No, i won't do that. And i expect you do the same. I expect that you respect my beliefs and others, and that you don't go about downing people who aren't atheists are trying to make them one. It's up to them. That is all I have to say. This is what a lot of people say. But I don't. I don't respect your belief, because I think it's wrong. Nor do I think you should respect my belief, if you think it's wrong. Why should anyone respect a position they find wrong?
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:28 pm
piratemage12 To the atheists, i wonder why you choose not to believe in god? GO GREEN! THIS PLANET'S ALL WE HAVE! It's isn't a choice. We just don't believe.
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