FEMINISM

[cvbkfgbkjmgbcj]

I have decided to become a masculinist in addition to being a feminist. I feel like a lot of the time, in the midst of our politically-correct--although, in many places, still necessary--feminist movement, men are too often generalized as "the enemy" and undervalued as people. The male sex is too often thought of as being the oppressor and lumped into one group rather than a diverse collection of unique individuals. Many feminists do the same thing to men that they are protesting for their own sex--put them into a box. Men are chauvinists, men don't want to liberate women, men are insensitive. Yes, there are men like this. Yes, gender inequality is a problem. But not all men are like that! Too many female feminists forget that there are males in their ranks--that's right! There are male feminists! Feminism seeks equality for all sexes (and genders, ye politically correct-minded folks), and so should be more careful that they do not trample the other half of the world too hard in the quest for gender equality.

Note: I'm speaking mainly of mainstream america, not the rest of the world  

[cvbkfgbkjmgbcj]

Your thoughts on the matter?  

[Sailor Rapunzel]

I agree whole-heartedly. I used to be take part in several feminist movements in my area but found that men were constantly treated as the enemy and often times even those who would help with events were treated as lesser people. There is this nasty double-standard, and it's really sad to see innocent guys receive the same ugly treatment from the very women who hate on men for such things.  

[Esiris]

It seems like reading your posts you're not understanding the problems with Male Privilege, and are also making generalizations about feminism that aren't really true.
Feminism doesn't say anything about being for all genders- there is a ton of Second Wave feminism that is horribly anti-Trans. They claim that MtF's are trying to steal women's privilege and can never be women and that FtM's are anti-women and are trying to escape by hiding as men.

When it comes to Cis-Male Privilege, the people with the privilege can't be "repressed"- while some individuals are bigots- misandry or misogyny isn't ok. But- Feminism is about a civil right's movement, not specific people for good or bad. See- privilege isn't about people, it's about a characteristic a person has or doesn't have. Equalizing that privilege is about responding to traits and not people.  

[Esiris]

Seravee Seraphim

I agree whole-heartedly. I used to be take part in several feminist movements in my area but found that men were constantly treated as the enemy and often times even those who would help with events were treated as lesser people. There is this nasty double-standard, and it's really sad to see innocent guys receive the same ugly treatment from the very women who hate on men for such things.

But being a jerk isn't what feminism is about- feminism is about equality and social structures, not individuals just like the privilege is about characteristics and not the specific people with those characteristics.

The bottom line is that these problems are made up of prejudice and privileged power- since females don't have the power to oppress the dominant group- males, anything you're taking a stand against is actually "coded misogyny", not misandry and will be undone by feminism.  

[Belethiel]

Yeah, we need to keep things balanced.

I know a guy who can't get custody of his kids even though his wife is a very irresponsible mother. I'm pretty sure it's because he's male. Men get judged for wanting to work with children all the time, too, people assume they're *****.

There are still equality issues on both sides. But, I think issues with women are still too prevalent and we can deal with the men's stuff later... when anything deemed "feminine" isn't seen as something negative.

Those feminists who run around saying "men are dogs" and such are not feminists, they are misandrists. However, that is still being portrayed as feminism by the media.... ick.  

[Sailor Rapunzel]

Esiris

I can understand this, but the sad fact remains that most of the women I had worked with were more focused on personal endeavors and unfortunately at some point it wasn't even just about equal rights anymore. Most of the women I knew had been emotionally trampled by men and to be honest much of the time it was difficult to decipher when things were being done for the sake of moving forward or for mere spite of the opposite gender. I am not a fan of generalizations, so I only speak from personal experience, but I also do have a huge problem with the fact that some of the women that demand equal rights turn around and say that another certain group doesn't deserve them. It's really difficult to work with people who are too caught up in their personal opinions to think rationally.

I understand that this isn't what feminism is about, but when the only "feminist" groups around all behave in such a manner it really gives the whole cause a bad reputation in some areas.  

[Esiris]

Belethiel

Yeah, we need to keep things balanced.

I know a guy who can't get custody of his kids even though his wife is a very irresponsible mother. I'm pretty sure it's because he's male. Men get judged for wanting to work with children all the time, too, people assume they're ***** class="clear">

[Sailor Rapunzel]

Esiris

LOL that's why I mentioned the certain areas. 3nodding I know it's not like that everywhere else, but where I am from pretty much all the organizations are the same, and I can only say this because there aren't many to begin with. I think the local culture here also doesn't do much to help, but that's something completely different. sweatdrop Anyways, I like to think that eventually we will find balance, and in the end all I can do is stay optimistic and do what I can in whichever way I can, so I guess I am happy enough with that. I gotta go now but it was nice talking to you! whee  

[Alashuko The Fighter]

Well I think people should learn to get along. We don't need any of this crap about "inequality". Men back then were considered the best out of the species than women because they were able to throw the spear to pierce the heart of a mastadon while a woman couldn't. So men are strong. Now in the modern day world, women are way smarter than men and much more wiser. The women can over tower men with their knowledge of things about their mate. So women are smart. There should be no fights going on and the movements are ok, but consider the facts that are known.  

[Esiris]

Seravee Seraphim

Esiris

LOL that's why I mentioned the certain areas. 3nodding I know it's not like that everywhere else, but where I am from pretty much all the organizations are the same, and I can only say this because there aren't many to begin with. I think the local culture here also doesn't do much to help, but that's something completely different. sweatdrop Anyways, I like to think that eventually we will find balance, and in the end all I can do is stay optimistic and do what I can in whichever way I can, so I guess I am happy enough with that. I gotta go now but it was nice talking to you! whee

It was nice talking to you too!

Alashuko The Fighter

Well I think people should learn to get along. We don't need any of this crap about "inequality".

From the stuff I've read- that kind of attitude protects the privilege that causes the inequity. If you can't name the problem and can't speak it- it doesn't get explored or solved.

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Men back then were considered the best out of the species than women because they were able to throw the spear to pierce the heart of a mastadon while a woman couldn't. So men are strong. Now in the modern day world, women are way smarter than men and much more wiser. The women can over tower men with their knowledge of things about their mate. So women are smart.

There are women that are strong and men that aren't- there are men that are smart and women that aren't and our society discourages this stuff.  

[cvbkfgbkjmgbcj]

I also want to say that much of what people think of as gender inequality will never go away, simply because physiological and psychological differences in the sexes. Men will always be the 99% of rapists simply because the way the male mind works versus the female mind.
I'm simply to exhausted and confused to respond to anything else.  

[Esiris]

Shiny Leather Boots

Men will always be the 99% of rapists simply because the way the male mind works versus the female mind.

There is no evidence that supports that- and it is just another example of excusing abuse. I don't know any credible psychologists who argue that- in Does Knowledge about Sexuality Prevent Adolescents from Developing Rape-Supportive Beliefs?(1), knowledge of sex- not biological sex/gender, showed a correlation to rape-supportive behavior.

Who learns what at what age isn't genetic- it's social.

You should also look at The Relationship between Rape Myths and Sexual Scripts: The Social Construction of Rape.

I think that these show that it is a social problem- not a biological one linked to sex, and that by saying "it's always going to be this way, because men are men and women are women"- you reinforce the rape myths that perpetuate attitudes towards men and women that excuse rape.

If you don't believe me- read the articles, but just saying it's that way isn't the same as being able to show studies that say it's so.

1:Mallet, Pascal, and Dominique Herbe. "Does Knowledge About Sexuality Prevent Adolescents From Developing Rape-Supportive Beliefs?." Journal Of Sex Research 48.4 (2011): 372-380. Academic Search Premier. Web. 16 June 2012.

Ryan, Kathryn. "The Relationship Between Rape Myths And Sexual Scripts: The Social Construction Of Rape." Sex Roles 65.11/12 (2011): 774-782. Academic Search Premier. Web. 16 June 2012.  

[lilla muchi]

well in my own view i say treat others as you want to be treated and treat none less than yourself. most shovanist (both male and female) i have found to be more then alittle rude at times and it bothers me that they can't have enough respect to respect themselves or others around them. i know its gone on for centuries but i think we all should have evolved past this. It's kinda sad that there are still people whom choose to treat others as less then themselves merely because of (gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.) but it falls into ignorance and the way they were taught/ brought up.  

[Esiris]

lilla muchi

well in my own view i say treat others as you want to be treated and treat none less than yourself.

I think that's excellent advice! It's a good rule of thumb for people to avoid cross marginalization- I mean, how can there be equal rights for some and not others? It kind of makes it not "equal" rights at all. LGBT and Allies should be working to end racism, sexism, ageism, anti-poly bias, etc.

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i know its gone on for centuries but i think we all should have evolved past this.

Evolution really only targets genetic stuff- this is all learned behaviors.

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It's kinda sad that there are still people whom choose to treat others as less then themselves merely because of (gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.) but it falls into ignorance and the way they were taught/ brought up.

Yep- it's all about privilege structures and bias, but when you're marginalized sometimes being underprivileged in one area makes you more likely to misuse your privilege in other areas.
And there are so many things in the "etc" field- I mean, relationship configurations, biological sex, education level- it seems like it never ends!
What kinds of things have you found useful to help in your own struggle with privilege so you don't cross-marginalize other people?

I catch myself doing it now and then and I've been working mostly on body language- kind of following the idea that if you smile you'll be happy, if I control my body language with people who I have been socially trained to be "uncomfortable" with- I can usually turn it around into something more positive.

That doesn't help with the internet though- and so many forms of prejudice slip into posts on FB and Gaia that it's a real uphill battle trying to stand up for true equality. cat_sweatdrop