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 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:14 am
I know this is going to sound totally "noobish"... But what does exactly happen to souls that Raziel devours? It always confused the hell out of me, and I still am not able to find a definite answer sweatdrop ...
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:15 am
I think it was mentioned that they went to the EG.
>.>
I'll have to check thought to be certain.
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:19 am
I was always under the impression that the souls that Raziel devoured fed back to the Elder God (somehow), giving him more strength. I think that's why there's also all these other soul devouring beasties in the spectral realm too...
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:29 am
 How does it go from Razzie to squidboy though?
Thats a good question too...
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:46 am
Found the answer: http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Archon"Archons are the spectral envoys of the Elder God. These highly intelligent hunters (the reapers) swim through the currents of the Spectral Plane in search of souls to devour for the God they are symbiotically connected to (much like Raziel)." However for example Sluagh, aren't connected to Elder God and as such he resents them... "Unlike other Spectral-native fauna, they are not allied or symbiotically connected to The Elder God, who considers them "vermin" worthy only of destruction." And about Souls: "Souls apparently had their origin in the Elder God 's Wheel of Fate ; the cycle of life, death and rebirth. All of Nosgoth's inhabitants apparently had souls. The soul of a Human , Vampire or other creature inhabited the body until death when it departed for the Spectral Realm . (although wraiths such as Raziel could apparently observe souls lingering in the Material Realm for a short while.) Whilst humans die and release their souls to the Wheel of Fate, the Blood Curse means vampires are immortal and their souls are "imprisoned in the flesh" which clogs the Wheel of Fate. Their Souls can only be liberated by death. When Souls reached the Spectral Realm they could be fed upon by agents of the Elder God, (such as Raziel and the Archons) and would presumably be respun in the Wheel of Fate. Whilst in the Spectral Realm however, the souls were vulnerable to soul scavengers such as Sluagh and Vampire Wraiths. Vampire souls, if left in the Spectral Realm long enough could grow accustomed to it and become Vampire Wraiths." http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/SoulWhat made me wonder though, were the words of Elder God after Raziel devours Moebius' soul: "Moebius was a good servant, but he was of no further use". Wouldn't that mean Moebius returned to Elder God (if Raziel is connected to Elder God)? And as such all Elder God would have to do is re-incarnate Moebius and grant him memories of his past life? Unless when a soul is devoured it simply becomes "energy" without any sentience... However knowing that Elder God is a hell of a manipulator, he would find a way to revive his servant...
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:18 am
Other thing... Where in the Nasgoth ( mrgreen ) is Kain at the beginning of Blood Omen after his assasination? I mean the hell-like dimension where he is visited by Mortanius. It's not Spectral Realm, doesn't seem to be Demon Demension either, and sure as hell it's not Material Realm... Then where could it be? They mention it to be "the Underworld"= Spectral Realm... But the physical structure of it differs greatly. I would sooner assume Kain was in Demon Realm or Eternal Prison, but now I'm confusing myself sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:32 am
I was under the impression once dead and purified souls lost their memories, hence why Raziel and the others had no memory of their former life when they were born...
That would explain why the Elder God said what he did about Moebius... as soon as he was consumed he lost who he had been?
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:14 am
Chryssta How does it go from Razzie to squidboy though?
Thats a good question too...
Symbiotic connection...Same way Members of the Circle of Nine were connected to each other (though in their case it was only mental connection, while with Raziel and Elder God it's more of power thing).
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:53 am
Samt03 I was under the impression once dead and purified souls lost their memories, hence why Raziel and the others had no memory of their former life when they were born... That would explain why the Elder God said what he did about Moebius... as soon as he was consumed he lost who he had been? "Raziel then devoured Moebius' soul, returning its energy to the Wheel of Fate. The Elder God described the action as "petty" and "irrelevant". Seems, that once devoured, the soul's become sheer energy. Sort of like play-doh that can be reshaped into anything... But that is a scary perspective on death, since it means a complete "annihilation" of one's "I"/ego/sentience... However wouldn't Elder God than re-incarnate Meobius (as a completely new being) but grant him memory of his past life (in form of visions for example)? Two other things: 1. How did Kain bring his "sons" back to life ? 2. How could he had lived without the Heart of Darkness(close to end of Defiance)? Sorry, for asking so much but I love the series, and love to listen other people's opinions since it allows me to perfect and advance me theories on some aspects of the game smile
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:18 pm
Mortanius_Necromancer Samt03 I was under the impression once dead and purified souls lost their memories, hence why Raziel and the others had no memory of their former life when they were born... That would explain why the Elder God said what he did about Moebius... as soon as he was consumed he lost who he had been? "Raziel then devoured Moebius' soul, returning its energy to the Wheel of Fate. The Elder God described the action as "petty" and "irrelevant". Seems, that once devoured, the soul's become sheer energy. Sort of like play-doh that can be reshaped into anything... But that is a scary perspective on death, since it means a complete "annihilation" of one's "I"/ego/sentience... However wouldn't Elder God than re-incarnate Meobius (as a completely new being) but grant him memory of his past life (in form of visions for example)? Two other things: 1. How did Kain bring his "sons" back to life ? 2. How could he had lived without the Heart of Darkness(close to end of Defiance)? Sorry, for asking so much but I love the series, and love to listen other people's opinions since it allows me to perfect and advance me theories on some aspects of the game smile 1: Kain's "sons" were created by Kain snatching some stolen spectral energy and mingling the energy with his "dark gift" to form new souls to inhabit the bodies of the Sarafan warrior-priests. (And I would also stand behind the idea that souls do not remain individual or sentient once absorbed into the Wheel of Fate. Based on what I can gather from Raziel and EG's banter, the reaved souls become free-form spectral energy to be reshaped into new souls.) 2: Kain's Guardianship of the Balance Pillar alone kept him alive. He hinted at this during his last confrontation with Moebius, and even implied that he was no longer even a vampire, but a being beyond death, somewhat similar to Raziel.
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:29 am
Silas Parrish 2: Kain's Guardianship of the Balance Pillar alone kept him alive. He hinted at this during his last confrontation with Moebius, and even implied that he was no longer even a vampire, but a being beyond death, somewhat similar to Raziel. Couldn't really find the part you are talking about and I looked both in (contains gameplay + cinematic up to Raziel deciding to go into the Reaver): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24gV6FD85ro And: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/script/index.php Under: Chapter Thirteen - Kain - Avernus Catacombs Dark Chronicle - Kain Awakes In The Demon Realm "Kain V.O.: I awoke to find myself in a shadowy realm. A disquieting stillness lay where my heart had been - the heart that had belonged to Janos Audron all along. How was it possible that I still lived?" And/or: Dark Chronicle - Vengeance And Sacrifice (The whole dialog scripted with Kain arriving and killing Moebius) However: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wov5IgtfFbU At the end of Blood Omen 2 (never played it, the dialog script and cinematic is something I saw for the first time yesterday) Kain has an interesting information exchange with the Hylden. "The Sarafan Lord: You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return. Kain: Should your kind ever breach that place of banishment again, I will be waiting." And in Defiance, if we look at it from certain angle... Kain is "banished" to the Demon Realm, and "breaches" the seal, returning to Avernus Cathedral. And perhaps that grants him his immortality (without the heart). Since I believe sheer Guardianship of the Balance Pillar would not have done it (Ariel died and she was a Balance Guardian too, not to mention all the Guardians Kain kills in Blood Omen, and Wraith Vampire Guardians Raziel kills in Defiance). Also at the time of Kain "loosing" his heart, the pillars were already in decay. So I doubt they were even half as strong as they were before Nupraptor's mental attack after death of Ariel, and as such find it hard to believe Kain's Guardianship is at work here. As for Kain being "like" Raziel... He is still very much mortal. The speech with Moebius talks about that without the Heart of Darkness Kain can no longer be affected by Moebius' Staff (which negates all vampiric magic). That however creates paradox in Soul Reaver 2 where Raziel's blade is affected by the Staff but not Raziel himself (even though he was/is/will be the spirit inside the blade). I just can't figure out (completely) why Kain walk/talks/kills after having his heart removed, while Janos Audron goes into a "coma" :/ Looked through Internet and found this: http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html "How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness? His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive." I find it however to be sort of a "f-off" answer and an example of pure deus ex machina. *Side note for clarification: Scion of Balance is not the same title/role as Vampiric Hero or the Balance Guardian. http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html"What is the difference between the Scion of Balance and the Balance Guardian? The Scion of Balance is the figure who is destined to return the Pillars to vampiric rule, the one who was prophesied by the ancient Vampires. Kain is both, whereas the other Balance Guardians were not."
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:18 am
Mortanius_Necromancer Silas Parrish 2: Kain's Guardianship of the Balance Pillar alone kept him alive. He hinted at this during his last confrontation with Moebius, and even implied that he was no longer even a vampire, but a being beyond death, somewhat similar to Raziel. Couldn't really find the part you are talking about and I looked both in (contains gameplay + cinematic up to Raziel deciding to go into the Reaver): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24gV6FD85ro And: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/script/index.php Under: Chapter Thirteen - Kain - Avernus Catacombs Dark Chronicle - Kain Awakes In The Demon Realm "Kain V.O.: I awoke to find myself in a shadowy realm. A disquieting stillness lay where my heart had been - the heart that had belonged to Janos Audron all along. How was it possible that I still lived?" And/or: Dark Chronicle - Vengeance And Sacrifice (The whole dialog scripted with Kain arriving and killing Moebius) However: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wov5IgtfFbU At the end of Blood Omen 2 (never played it, the dialog script and cinematic is something I saw for the first time yesterday) Kain has an interesting information exchange with the Hylden. "The Sarafan Lord: You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return. Kain: Should your kind ever breach that place of banishment again, I will be waiting." And in Defiance, if we look at it from certain angle... Kain is "banished" to the Demon Realm, and "breaches" the seal, returning to Avernus Cathedral. And perhaps that grants him his immortality (without the heart). Since I believe sheer Guardianship of the Balance Pillar would not have done it (Ariel died and she was a Balance Guardian too, not to mention all the Guardians Kain kills in Blood Omen, and Wraith Vampire Guardians Raziel kills in Defiance). Also at the time of Kain "loosing" his heart, the pillars were already in decay. So I doubt they were even half as strong as they were before Nupraptor's mental attack after death of Ariel, and as such find it hard to believe Kain's Guardianship is at work here. As for Kain being "like" Raziel... He is still very much mortal. The speech with Moebius talks about that without the Heart of Darkness Kain can no longer be affected by Moebius' Staff (which negates all vampiric magic). That however creates paradox in Soul Reaver 2 where Raziel's blade is affected by the Staff but not Raziel himself (even though he was/is/will be the spirit inside the blade). I just can't figure out (completely) why Kain walk/talks/kills after having his heart removed, while Janos Audron goes into a "coma" :/ Looked through Internet and found this: http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html "How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness? His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive." I find it however to be sort of a "f-off" answer and an example of pure deus ex machina. *Side note for clarification: Scion of Balance is not the same title/role as Vampiric Hero or the Balance Guardian. http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html"What is the difference between the Scion of Balance and the Balance Guardian? The Scion of Balance is the figure who is destined to return the Pillars to vampiric rule, the one who was prophesied by the ancient Vampires. Kain is both, whereas the other Balance Guardians were not." Eh, well there ya go. I didn't realize there was distinction between Scion of Balance and Balance Guardian. I may need to play all the games through again. I seem to remember someone in-game mentioning that Kain was still alive because he had to be, in order to fulfill his destiny as Balance Guardian. Or whatever. I think you're right about the "f**k off" answer thought. Seems to me that the writers couldn't easily explain why, exactly, but they needed Janos and Kain alive together. -shrugs-
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:09 am
I don't think pulling Blood Omen 2 into the discussion can be a valid argument as Blood Omen 2 is more thought of as a stand alone game (long standing guild debate.) It more kinda just sits there doing it's own thing rather then meshing into the time line well enough, plus some of what they said goes against what's said in the other games (don't ask for examples, I'm not awake enough to provide any right now.)
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:31 pm
Silas Parrish Eh, well there ya go. I didn't realize there was distinction between Scion of Balance and Balance Guardian. I may need to play all the games through again. Neither did I for a long period of time. Wish I still had my games, I gave them away sweatdrop and I had all the games (for Playstation consoles) except Blood Omen 2. Silas Parrish I seem to remember someone in-game mentioning that Kain was still alive because he had to be, in order to fulfill his destiny as Balance Guardian. I think I recall that too, just can't pin-point where and when. Silas Parrish Or whatever. I think you're right about the "f**k off" answer thought. Seems to me that the writers couldn't easily explain why, exactly, but they needed Janos and Kain alive together. -shrugs- Exactly what I'm thinking too. Perhaps someday they'll make another Soul Reaver (highly unlikely since Raziel is trapped in the Reaver as of Defiance) or Blood Omen (more likely, though still not sure if they'll continue the idea) where more explanation is given.
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:35 pm
It is quite possible that they stuck the heart into Kain simply as a 'safe place' to keep it. Where else to you put a vampire relic you want safe then into a vampire it's self? Who would really think to check inside of him?
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