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Series 4 (ep. 6): "The Doctor's ----------" [spoilers] Goto Page: 1 2 3 ... 4 5 [>] [»|]

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Hairy Priest
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:32 pm


Yeah, the episode hasn't aired yet, but considering a lot of the discussion in the 'The Poison Sky' thread is about the preview for this episode, I figured we ought to just start a thread for this story early.

Also, Digital Spy has posted a few teaser spoilers (plus two bogus spoilers just to make things confusing) here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/cult/a95290/s04e06-the-doctors-daughter.html

Anyone want to guess which two are the fake ones?

I'm thinking its:

1. The Hath are descendants of the Haemovores.
2. Jenny says Susan died in the Time War.

Mainly because they seem like pointless references to the show's past. Unfortunately, I suspect that the bit about the Doctor saying he doesn't need a female to have kids is gonna end up being true. Mainly because this will appease those who like the 'Lungbarrow' description of how Time Lords reproduce. Then again, it would mean that the Doctor could easily stop being the last of the Time Lords if he'd just get off his butt and started spawning progeny.


(potential spoilers in white text above).
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:13 am


Hairy Priest

Unfortunately, I suspect that the bit about the Doctor saying he doesn't need a female to have kids is gonna end up being true. Mainly because this will appease those who like the 'Lungbarrow' description of how Time Lords reproduce.


Lungbarrow fans need a lot less appeasing than others suppose. The book was written after the American Telemovie had revealed that the Doctor had a mother and a father and after Cold Fusion had suggested the Doctor had thirteen children, and accounts for that sort of information. All the things that fans like to say contradict Lungbarrow very rarely contradict Lungbarrow at all.

If I may, I'll repost my little guide to what the different media have told us about the Doctor's family over the years. That way we're all on the same page before the episode airs.

It draws on on televised and untelevised material, but hopefully I've been clear about what comes from where so anyone can ignore the bits they're inclined to and we can avoid a canon debate. Though if anyone does want one of those I've a thread here for that sort of thing.

"I have other families"


The English Series - The Sixties.
The Doctor has a Grandaughter called Susan who invented the word TARDIS. Behind-the-scenes documents tell us they're survivors of a cosmic war in the 51st Century which may have destroyed thier own world.

Of course, once the Time Lords and, later, Gallifrey were introduced then all that untelevised "last survivors/cosmic war" backstory went out of the window. Who knows though, maybe someone will find a use for that angle someday? wink

The Doctor has a wider family but something, implictly (but by no means certainly) thier being dead, prevents him from being with them. He remembers them fondly but the rest of the time they "sleep in his mind"

('Sleep in my mind' is a very interesting turn of phrase once we learn in The Deadly Assassin that dead Time Lords can be stored as data and once we learn in The Gallifrey Chronicles that such data can be stored in the minds of other Time Lords. With those two facts in play it almost sounds like the Doctor is saying he carries 'back-ups' of his family. eek )

TV Comic

Sixties licensees of Doctor Who seem to have had to have paid out individually for the different bits of Doctor Who intellectual property they wanted to use rather than getting the whole format as a package. Those making the Doctor Who strip for TV Comic didn't fancy shelling out for the series changing roster of companions, so instead stuck with thier own creations...

John and Gillian, the Doctor's grandchildren.

A bland and anodyne pair, John and Gillian were much younger than any TV companion and seem more to me like Enid Blyton characters of the sort of infuriatingly wet kind that I always wished would fall off thier 'Magic Wishing Chair' or from the top of thier 'Magic Faraway Tree' and snap thier well-scrubbed necks.

They travelled with both the first and second Doctors never noticing that he'd changed, or if they did notice never judging it worthy of comment. Eventually he managed to ditch them by packing them off to university on the planet Zebedee.

In the continuity of the novels then these comics have been established as having occured in the Land of Fiction, and in the continuity of the DWM comic then they've been established as having been a dream the Doctor had. However, there's a continuity reference to these stories in The Infinite Quest, so for all we know John and Gillian might still be working on post-Doctoral studies at Zebedee University.

The English Series - The Seventies and Eighties (Except the last two seasons. We'll get to them later.)

Time and the Rani suggests he has a notably idle uncle.

In Planet of Fire The Master dies one of his many comic-book pretend deaths with a "How can you do this to your own..."

As the sentance was left unfinished then lots of people seem to think the missing word was 'brother'. They've been watching too much television. Lance Parkin mischeviously points out that 'husband' also fits. More boringly, so does 'kind'.

Another possibility relates to what Barry Letts, producer of the Pertwee era, had planned for the Third Doctor's swansong. 'Regeneration' as we think of it now hadn't really been invented in the early 70's (despite two transformations which were later retconned as having been 'regenerations') so the plan for the birth of the Fourth Doctor was to reveal the 'truth' about the Master - that (*drumroll*) he and the Doctor were two halves of the same person - and have them merge to become one entity.

It's probably for the best none of that made it to the screen, but there's a tiny hint of it in Logopolis where the Doctor says of the Master, "In many ways we have the same mind."

There's a fleeting mention of 'The Braxiatel Collection' in City of Death - This will be important later.

The Brain of Morbius establishes that the Doctor's life goes back further than the guy we the think of as being 'The First Doctor'. This is subsequently contradicted by The Five Doctors - This will be important later.

The American Telemovie and the Leekly Bible.

Oh dear.

The American Telemovie was the end product of a complex series of different scripts and documents, all of which were pants. Most horrifying of all of these is the so called 'Leekly Bible', which would have been the series template had the American Telemovie gone with a 'reboot' and managed to go on longer than eighty-five minutes. As, thankfully on both counts, the American telemovie neither rebooted Doctor Who nor went on longer than eighty-five minutes then little of this stuff got on screen. But a few crumbs of it did, and it's all there lurking inside the script's DNA.

Before we get into it, here's the quick guide to Hollywood's relationship with Joeseph Campbell or, as I call it, "Why Mainstream Fantasy and SF Have Been s**t For Decades"

The Quick Guide to Hollywood's Relationship with Joseph Campbell
or
Why Mainstream Fantasy and SF Have Been s**t For Decades


  • Bloke called Joseph Campbell writes book proving that all the myths of the world are really just versions of the same story. He achevies this using the startlingly effective method of ignoring all the tricky bits which show they aren't.

  • Bloke called George Lucas adapts Joseph Campbell's 'mono-myth' into a film. Calls it Star Wars.

  • Star Wars does quite well for itself.

  • Hollywood thus comes to belive it has found the 'formula for myth'.

  • Scriptwriting classes pound these ideas into the heads of creative people until generations of writers are produced who belive that thier sole job is to reiterate Campbell's 'one big story' in various different forms.

  • Everything goes to hell to the extent that people like J. Michael Straczynski are mistaken for talents.


Doctor Who had, thus far escaped any attempts to make it 'fit' into anything. But it's number was up. The Leekley Bible was a wholesale attempt to make the story fit into the monomyth. After all, that's what all stories are really, aren't they? Just some naughty stories like Doctor Who don't know that yet. They need to be taught how to behave.

So Doctor Who becomes a big dynastic epic in which the Doctor is the Chosen One, foretold since the time of Rassilon as he who would find the Lost Scrolls and lead his world out of darkness. Hardly suprising since he's now a direct descendant of Rassilion. rolleyes

No, wait. It gets worse. He's descended from Rassilon via his grandfather Borusa (Borusa!). As is his brother...(*drumroll*)...The Master! You saw that one coming, right? Some people watch too much television.

A new addition to the family tree, rather than an old character unconvincingly grafted onto is, is Ulysses, the Master and the Doctor's new daddy. It seems that after fathering the Master, Ulysses got an Earth-woman up the duff and produced a half-human/half Time Lord kiddy which he sent back to Gallifrey to be raised as the Doctor. He then got lost the depths of time. Most likely to avoid paying child maintenance while he gads around impregnating Bandrills, Slitheen and Voord if you ask me.

Anyway, Doctor Who is turned into this big 'brother versus brother' feud, while the Doctor's travels in space and time are explained as him searching for his missing daddy. Oh, and grandpa Borusa becomes a ghost who lives inside the TARDIS.

Happily, not too much of this makes its way onto the screen, but it's because of all this backstory that the Eighth Doctor starts claiming to be half-human on his mother's side and tediously remenisicing about his dad.


The Cartmel Masterplan - The Last Two Seasons of the English Series and the New Adventures

Despite the last two seasons of the English Series obviously coming before the American Telemovie, I've a good reason for writing about them now. The key writers of that era (Cartmel, Aaronovitch and Platt) began a storyline in the TV show that, after cancellation, they continued and concluded in the New Adventures novels. The timing of this meant that the ending to that storyline (Lungbarrow) had to swerve to accomadate the telemovie's "I'm half-human" stuff.

So come with me now, back to Rememberance of the Daleks, to the novelisation as much as to the episode since it gives much more detail. That's the begining of what fans call 'The Cartmel Masterplan', perhaps unfairly since the ideas were mostly Platt's. It's a storyline that works a lot better when its revealed slowly over twenty-eight episodes and sixty novels than it does when sumarised in a few paragraphs on an internet forum, so be kind.

The universe was originally a place of superstition, magic and irrationality and at its heart was the Empire of Gallifrey, ruled by a line of witch-queens and seers called the Pythia.

The Pythia came to be challenged by an alliance of three pioneers. Rassilion, Omega and a mysterious 'Other', a traveller not native to Gallifrey.

Rassilion overthrow the Pythia and implemented a new order based on reason and science. As she died the Pythia cursed Gallifrey's new Lords to infertility. Their lifeless and sterile science would be rewarded with a lifeless and sterile world.

The Time Lords adapted by granting of thier Houses a 'Loom', a genetic database that would produce an alloted number of cousins for each House. Time Lords were not born, but Loomed and had no mothers, fathers or brothers - all the members of a House considered each other to be Cousins.

When Omega appeared to sacrifice himself to allow the Gallifreyans to truly become the Lords of Time, Rassilion's rule began to turn despotic and tyrannical. The Other sought to escape Gallifrey, but with all the exits sealed his only option was to throw himself into the Looms and await eventual rebirth.

Fast forward ten million years.

A Time Lord who will become know as the Doctor is Loomed to the House of Lungbarrow.

One of fourty-five cousins, the Doctor is eventually disowned by the House for a number of reasons. Not the least of being that certain genetic iregularities suggest he's not a member of the House of Lungbarrow at all.

The First Doctor eventually flees Gallifrey, the Hand of Omega boosts the power of the rubbish old TARDIS he's stolen and sends him, impossibly, back along Gallifrey's timeline. Back ten million years to the time of Rassilon. There he meets Susan, the granddaughter of the Other. Except she seems to think that the Doctor is her grandfather. And he somehow knows her name without being told. She joins him aboard the TARDIS and...well, and then the whole of the English TV series happens.

673 years later, the Seventh Doctor returns to the House of Lungbarrow. Lots happens. The most important thing though is that President Romana overturns the Pythia's curse of sterility on Gallifrey. Time Lords are sexual again - just in time for Eight, Nine and Ten to start kissing thier way across the cosmos.

The first child concived on the newly fertile Gallifrey is that of Andred (a Time Lord) and Leela (a human). The Doctor instructs that this unusual child be named after him.

Right, so the story that's being implied here is pretty clear. There was this bloke called the Other who chucked himself into a Loom thingy. Ten million years later he gets 'reLoomed' as the Doctor. A child who's half-human (on his mother's side) is born, who someday travels back in time to become the Other.

But here's the thing... that's never actually said. All this might seem like bad fanfic when condensed down to these few terse paragraphs, but Lungbarrow is a very well-written novel and its best trick is that it manages to give satisfying answers to the questions raised over the previous twenty-eight episodes and sixty novels without forcing anyone to accept those answers as definative. The producers of LOST would do well to study Lungbarrow before sitting down to write thier final script.

Sure there's a solid story there of how Leela and Andred's son became the Other who in turn became the Doctor, but all of that is revealed by deductions, dreams, and even by puppet shows. There's plenty of space there for it to be possible that it didn't happen that way at all.

In fact...there's the outstanding matter of the Doctor's belly-button. Lungbarrow makes much of the fact the Doctor's got one which, if he'd been Loomed at all, he shouldn't. It's never been explained but it certainly seems to suggest that the Doctor had a natural birth.

As the Seventh Doctor tells the House of Lungbarrow as they disown him for a second time, "I have other families."

The Parkin Masterplan.

Those faces of pre-Hartnell Doctors from The Brain of Morbius?
Well obviously under the 'Cartmel Masterplan' they're supposed to be the faces of 'The Other'. Lance Parkin seems to be having none of this however, and in the Missing Adventure Cold Fusion suggests that there simply were pre-Hartnell Doctors.

One of these previous incarnations was apparently married to a Time Lady called Patience, and the family tree that builds up around them recurrs in Parkin's EDAs and PDAs and in those of Kate Orman and Jon Blum.

Patience was a very ancient womb-born Gallifreyan, who had previously been married to Omega (which I find a bit creepy) and also been the Doctor's nursemaid (which I find very creepy). A pre-Hartnell Doctor married her and they had thirteen children together. It seems the 'Pythia's curse' was as much political propaganda and social control as a real curse, as the Presidency clamped down on non-Loom births.

It was a time of great unrest. The Capitol was burning and mobs were storming the Panopticon. The President ordered that the Doctor's family home be searched for womb-born and his thirteen children were dragged out and his granddaughter about to be executed.

Where was the Doctor during all this? We don't know, and neither does he. Something's erased his memory of the whole thing. But who should come to the rescue again? Yes, it's the 'First' Doctor! Once more travelling naughtily back along his timeline. The 'First' Doctor gets Patience to safety and sends his earlier self's granddaughter back into the ancient past.

So now it looks like what happens is...
- The Other lived on Ancient Gallifrey.

- The 'Pre-First' Doctor lived in Gallifrey's recent past.

- The Doctor lost his memories of this life and was somehow Loomed, or somehow faked his Looming, to be born to the House of Lungbarrow as 'The First Doctor'.

- The 'Pre-First' Doctor had a grandchild, Susan who was placed in danger.

- Fleeing Present Gallifrey, 'the First Doctor' rescued baby Susan from Recent Past Gallifrey and took her back to ancient Gallifrey to be raised by the Other.

- The 'First Doctor' then revisited Ancient Gallifrey sometime later, after the 'death' of the Other, and is rejoined by teen Susan.

All perfectly simple. How could anyone find that convoluted? wink

Now, here's the other thing. This 'Pre-First' Doctor. He's definately not Loom-born. We even know who his mum and dad are. The Doctor's Mum turns out to be Penelope Gate, a rather awesome human 'steampunk' Victorian time-traveller who first appears in Kate Orman's New Adventure The Room With No Doors.

And the Doctor's dad is...brace yourself...he's that bloody Ulysses from the telemovie backstory! There's some nice wordplay this time round though as when he turns up in a story he's going under the alias of 'Joyce'.

Right then, onto Miranda. She's the child of some sort of future space emperor guy who the Eighth Doctor raises as his own daughter in the novel Father Time. Well that's nice and simple. Except that Miranda's real dad from the future...the two things we know about him are that he was the last of his species and that he had two hearts. So it seems that although not the child of the Doctor who raised her, she was nevertheless the Doctor's daughter. Probably. I don't know. She's dead now anyway, having snuffed it under circumstances to stoopid for me to go into And I went into the circumstances of the Leekly Bible, don't you forget.


Braxiatel
Owner of the famed collection, Braxiatel first appears in the New Adventure Theatre of War. He goes on to feature in the First Doctor MA Empire of Glass, and to be a very major character in the Bernice novels and audios and in Big Finish's three seasons of Gallifrey audios.

The novel Tears of the Oracle pretty much establishes that he's the Doctor's brother and the later Bernice stories often add further evidence for this.

The Welsh Series
The Doctor had a dad.

The Doctor has been a dad.

The Doctor had a brother (interestingly, the line that established that went out in an episode that shared the same script editor as the novel which told us Braxiatel was the Doctor's brother).

Everyone's dead.

Well, that was simpler than I thought.

What's that you say? The Doctor's What?

Teatime Brutality


Hairy Priest
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:23 am


...I can't believe I just read all that. whee

Interesting stuff, trying to tie in the apparently-contradictory points from various TV and book sources. I didn't realize someone actually tried to run with the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors in a MA novel, or that so many members of the Doctor's family have been hinted at. I'm not sure I like the idea of people fleshing out the Doctor's family tree with details about his mother/brother/daughter or whatever.

And after reading those bits about the Leekly Bible, I am so glad the American Doctor Who series never went beyond the Fox TV movie.

Of course I just assume that anything non-televised isn't canon, and rationalizing some of the wackier aspects of the Doctor Who mythos becomes a lot simpler. I'm lazy like that.

Now that I think about it, it probably would be more accurate to say that if 'The Doctor's Daughter' does reveal that the Doctor can reproduce on his own somehow, it will appease those fans who are adverse to the idea of the Doctor having sex. Poor Doctor... he just can't get no satisfaction, I suppose.
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:12 am


People were already complaining and saying that the girl "must" be Susan's mother and scorned me for mentioning the stories that say the Doctor has thirteen children (yes, Lungbarrow was mentioned) and keep saying "Only the TV show is canon".

Having a socially-retarded walking sweatgland in a dirty jumper pour derision on you for liking an idea from a book that he doesn't isn't a tremendously fun way to spend your Saturday and not one I intend to repeat any time soon.

I just wish I'd had the guts to tell them to ******** off and watch Primeval.

Maiadorn


Teatime Brutality

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:57 am


Hairy Priest
I'm not sure I like the idea of people fleshing out the Doctor's family tree with details about his mother/brother/daughter or whatever.


It works okay in most cases because the characters function in thier own right - Braxiatel, for example, is Braxiatel rather than just 'the Doctor's brother' and when he's in a story it's to do Brax-ish things rather than 'Being the Doctor's Brother'-ish things.

One of the MAs with him in is up as an ebook on the BBC site if you ever fancy a look...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/ebooks/empireofglass/index.shtml

Hairy Priest

Of course I just assume that anything non-televised isn't canon, and rationalizing some of the wackier aspects of the Doctor Who mythos becomes a lot simpler. I'm lazy like that.


Fair dos. Personally I treat nearly everything that's been officially produced as Doctor Who as 'canon', but the great thing is that the BBC's "Canon is up to the individual fan" policy means we're both right smile

Maiadorn
People were already complaining and saying that the girl "must" be Susan's mother and scorned me for mentioning the stories that say the Doctor has thirteen children (yes, Lungbarrow was mentioned) and keep saying "Only the TV show is canon".


I've a lot of time for people who only count the television series. There're some good reasons for doing that, and I wish people like Hairy well.

But people like the Dirty Jumper Brigade who think you have to only count the television series are so monstrously wrong both on the abstract level of 'What Doctor Who is like' and on the concrete level of 'The Facts' that it's hard to imagine how it'd be possible for them to be wronger. Philosophy will have to generate whole new categories of knowledge so they can fail at them too.

Maybe that's why the Dirty Jumpers are always so loud while insisting on thier fake facts. Force and bluster is all they've got going for them when they're trying to limit other fans into accepting thier version of what is and isn't canonical in a series that has no canon.

(It goes without saying that the people who go around insisting that anyone has to accept the books and audios as canon are just as wrong and just as annoying. There's less of these people, and they do tend to smell better, but they're still just as wrong and just as annoying.)
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:02 am


Personally, I'm kind of hoping she's not Susan's mother. Somehow, that would make things simpler - Susan is the daughter of a child he had before the series began, and this Jenny person is a different child.
Otherwise you have to come up with some explanation for how Susan got to the First Doctor on Gallifrey when it's apparently been destroyed.

Oh, and my guess at the two red herrings:

1. Martha falls into a bog.
From the teaser, it seems to be much more of an indoor episode.

2. Martha puts a fish's shoulder back in place (or perhaps in plaice?).
Do fish even have shoulders? Fish-person, maybe.


Also in white-out.

Penny-Anna

Dapper Gaian

2,750 Points
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Hairy Priest
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:24 pm


Richard_Swift
Fair dos. Personally I treat nearly everything that's been officially produced as Doctor Who as 'canon', but the great thing is that the BBC's "Canon is up to the individual fan" policy means we're both right smile

Yep. The best solution is to just have everyone make up their own minds about what they want to accept as canon. Actually, I seem to remember you started a thread a while back about what folks around here viewed as Doctor Who canon. I suppose part of it is tinged by how much a particular person likes the various Who non-TV lines... if you think the NA's have a lot of good ideas, you kind of want some of that to be incorporated into the show, and if you think they're rubbish, you'd probably want to blot them from your memory!

I wonder if certain Who fans have adopted the sort of tiered levels of canonicity that Star Wars has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see how The Doctor's Daughter actually plays out. I'm thinking she'll be a goner by the end of the episode. Either that, or she reappears in the season finale and dies there. Personally, I think it'd be cool to have the Doctor to travel around with his daughter as a companion for a bit (it would be a different kind of Doc-companion dynamic), but I doubt this is the route they're going to take.
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:09 pm


Hairy Priest
I suppose part of it is tinged by how much a particular person likes the various Who non-TV lines... if you think the NA's have a lot of good ideas, you kind of want some of that to be incorporated into the show, and if you think they're rubbish, you'd probably want to blot them from your memory!


Oh definately.
I mean, personally I consider the DWM comic strip to be an honest-to-gosh 100% authentic account of Stuff That Actually Happened to the Actual Doctor, but I completely disregard all the Doctor Who Adventures strips, the Battles in Time strips, most of TV Comic, the comic strips in the annuals and pretty much all the Doctor's other comic strip adventures.

Now, I can come up with all sorts of rational-sounding reasons why I do this (The DWM strips tie into the audios and the books! They've been explicitly referenced in the Welsh series! They introduced the 'Time War' concept into continuity!) but the only honest reason is just that they're important to me. smile

Hairy Priest

I wonder if certain Who fans have adopted the sort of tiered levels of canonicity that Star Wars has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

I think that's more or less how fans used to treat the novelisations back in the old days...the new information was 'true' unless it contradicted the TV series (Many old reference books, like those Jean-Marc L'Officer used to write, were quite annoying in that regard as they'd give you no clue as to whether the 'facts' they were relaying came from the televised or novelised versions of the stories).

Nowadays I think if anyone tried to promote a 'tiered canon' there'd be blood running in the streets as audio fans and novel fans fought it out for which got the highest tier! smile

Teatime Brutality


Travis III

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:10 am


This looks like it's going to be one of those episodes that will either add a new dimension to the Doctor's character, or f**k up the whole series on a very grand scale.
I suppose I'll just have to wait and see...
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:39 pm


Well, just watched it.

First episode this series to make me cry.

tennantsbutterfly
Crew


Hairy Priest
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:07 pm


tennantsbutterfly
Well, just watched it.

First episode this series to make me cry.

Cry because of emotional impact, or cry because it sucked?

I haven't seen it yet, so I'm wondering what to expect...
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:22 pm


It was A LOT better than I thought it would be. That's all I'm saying for now.

[x] Natasha [x]


tennantsbutterfly
Crew

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:12 pm


Hairy Priest
tennantsbutterfly
Well, just watched it.

First episode this series to make me cry.

Cry because of emotional impact, or cry because it sucked?

I haven't seen it yet, so I'm wondering what to expect...


Emotional impact. David puts in one of his best performances EVER, and, bearing in mind he's one of the best actors in the country, that is saying something!
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:21 pm


It was much better than I thought it would be, I loved the Hath. The end was a bit weird though, she died, couldn't regenerate and then came to life again. I disliked how she died from a wound to the heart, when she has two hearts. D:
I was sad that Martha's Hath friend died, but not when Ten was being all sentimental. That just annoys me a bit.


Lol Chris from Skins.

Also lol, she came out of clone machine wearing clothes with makeup on.

Shangrii-La

Fashionable Fatcat


girlex

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:06 pm


Shangrii-La
It was much better than I thought it would be, I loved the Hath. The end was a bit weird though, she died, couldn't regenerate and then came to life again. I disliked how she died from a wound to the heart, when she has two hearts. D:
I was sad that Martha's Hath friend died, but not when Ten was being all sentimental. That just annoys me a bit.


Lol Chris from Skins.

Also lol, she came out of clone machine wearing clothes with makeup on.


yup agree with you, it was a pretty gd epidsode for the whole 'doctors daughter' threw up so much debate, but the ending sucked beyond belief, i mean, it was fine he had her and lost her thats part of being the doctor, like he lost rose, and now she's off running around the universe as another time lord and doctor... scream scream scream scream scream
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