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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:47 am
Doctor Who is unlike most long-running series in that there is no official canon.
The BBC have only ever made one statement on 'canonicity' when they declared in the license for Virgin's New Adventures that those books were the official continuation of the series, and it seems a bit like cheating to get too worked up about that bit of trivia.
Currently the position of the production team is that it's up to you. That deciding on a personal canon, on what counts as the True History of the Doctor and what doesn't is down to the individual fan.
For some people this is terrifying. Particularly for uber-fans who relish thier status as experts since if there's no fixed absolute about what is and isn't 'real' Doctor Who then they can no longer claim to have all the right answers.
For the rest of us, this is hugely liberating. The Doctor Who that counts for you is the Doctor Who that excites you and inspires you. The real Doctor Who is the one you love, in whatever medium it may be and however the hell it all fits together.
And nobody can tell you you're wrong, because the only people who could are telling you you're right.
So, with that in mind, what's in your canon?
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:05 am
I accept all Big Finish companions as being canon, even if they didn't appear in the series (eg, Evelyn, Hex, Charley, C'rizz, Lucie).
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:12 am
So here's what my canon looks like. Partial, biased and as valid as anyone else's. smile
IN! The Original TV series.
Good, wasn't it?
IN! K9 & Company.
OUT! Almost all annual stories
Except one or two, typically those from the Marvel yearbooks, most of these feel pretty disposable to me. There's a wistful little text piece in a Hartnell annual called something like 'The Mind of Doctor Who' that makes it in though, as does the information on the Time War in the 2006 annual.
OUT! TV Comic/TV Action
I can't be doing with the sixties TV Comic John&Gillian comic stories though, so I go with the explaination in Conundrum that they all took place in the Land of Fiction. Although, that said, I do have a sneaky fondness for those later Troughton stories they managed to set after the exile but before the regeneration.
I might have another think about this at some point, as I seem to remember someone saying that this era of the comics gets referenced in Infinite Quest.
IN! The Dalek comics strips from TV Century 21
I've always liked these, and since how much they contradict the Daleks' onscreen origins can now be blamed on the Time War I've at last got an excuse to put them in. smile
IN! The DWM comic strip.
Well, most of it. I would be tempted to disregard it from Ground Zero (the death of Ace) onward, but I really like a lot of the Eighth Doctor strips, so in they go.
Back-up stories like Alan Moore's Gallifrey saga go in as well, since they form background to both The Infinity Doctors and the Time War.
IN!The 'original' Target novels
I.E. the ones that weren't novelisations of episodes which made it to the screen. So the novelisations of the 'missing' Season 23 make it in, as do the Companions of Doctor Who novels for the hell of it.
Sort-of IN! The novelisations of Battlefield and Rememberance of the Daleks.
Obviously, I think the on-screen versions are the definitive ones, but for my money the additional information given in these books 'counts'.
IN! Doctor Who and the Pescatons
Ah, why not?
OUT! Slipback and Exploration Earth
Mostly just because I haven't heard them and I get the impression that they're a bit crap.
IN!The Paradise of Death and The Ghosts of N-Space
OUT! Dimensions in Time
I go with the 'horrible dream' explanation from First Frontier. smile
IN! The New Adventures novels
The real Golden Age of Doctor Who. smile
IN! The Missing Adventures novels
IN! Bernice Summerfield's adventures
That's the post-Doctor Virgin books, the Big Finish Bernice books and the Bernice audios (except the first 'season' since those are just adaptations of the books).
IN! The Eighth Doctor telemovie
IN! The Radio Times Eighth Doctor comic strips
IN! The BBC Eighth Doctor novels up to The Ancestor Cell
Sort-of IN! The BBC Eighth Doctor novels after The Ancestor Cell
Since many of these rely on there being a Gallifrey-less universe, I'm not sure they can have happened quite as we saw them once the planet was restored after The Gallifrey Chronicles.
Mostly-IN! The BBC Past Doctor novels
Though, for the same reason given above, I think the companion-deaths which resulted from the Council of Eight's schemes should be considered to have 'unhappened'.
Sort-of IN! The Faction Paradox novels and audios
Since these happen in the future which the Doctor averted in The Ancestor Cell they can't be part of the main timeline, but have a certain relevance.
OUT! The Faction Paradox comic
Only lasted two issues and never finished it's story so I'm just not going to bother.
OUT! The Miranda comic
Only lasted two issues and never finished it's story so I'm just not going to bother.
IN! The various escapades of Iris Wildthyme
In both her pre-Doctor Who novels and her post-Doctor Who short stories and audios.
IN! Big Finish's Doctor Who audios
Like most 'inclusionists' I place the Eighth Doctor and Charley stories in the gap between The Eight Doctors and Vampire Science.
(The attempt in Zagreus to imply that the novels and the audios are taking place in different timelines makes no sense at all, since the Gallifrey series of audios spins-off from Zagreus and that ties in with the Bernice Summerfield stories, which are obviously part of 'bookverse' continuity.)
IN! Big Finish's BBC7 Doctor Who radio plays
Most people seem to think these happen in that The Eight Doctors/Vampire Science gap too, but I think it's much more fun to have the Doctor and Lucie's adventures happen after the novels since they're ongoing while the novels have finished.
IN! The Infinity Doctors
Personally, I follow the suggestion in AHistory that this takes place late in the Eighth Doctor's life. After he's finished adventuring, but before the start of the Last Great Time War.
Mostly IN! Big Finish's spin-off audios
I've mentioned the Iris and Bernice audios already, but the Gallifrey , Dalek Empire and Davros ones make it in too. I'll decide about UNIT and Cyberman when I eventually get round to hearing them.
Sarah-Jane probably makes it in too, I'll just put any contradictions between her audios and her new TV series down to the damage done to her timeline by the Council of Eight in the novels.
Mostly OUT! BBV's audio and video releases
Certainly, I don't count all the unlicensed 'Domine and Alice' or 'Fred' type stories. The stories about the Rani, the I, Guy De Carnac, the Zygons and the rest I might have time for if I ever got round to hearing them. Already mentioned the Faction Paradox ones.
IN/OUT - Short story collections.
I'm very 'pick and choose' with the stories in the Decalogs or Short Trips books.
Almost Entirely-OUT - Unlicensed Charity Short story collections.
But there's just a handful of stories I can't bear not to include.
IN! The Telos Novellas and the Time Hunter spin-off
Sort of IN! in a complicated way The Scream of the Shalka/ The Feast of Stone.
When Marnal tries to view the Doctor's timeline in The Gallifrey Chronicles he sees that there are three different Ninth Doctors. I expect the timelines settle down after the Time War, but for a moment at least these stories existed side by side with 'our' Ninth Doctor.
Sort of IN! in a complicated way The Curse of Fatal Death
See above.
IN! The Current TV series.
Good, isn't it?
IN! Torchwood
IN! The novels based on the current Doctor Who series and on Torchwood
Okay, they're dull as dishwater, but if I used that as a test of canonicity I'd have to disregard The Armaggedon Factor, Underworld, The Sensorites and other huge chunks of the original series.
OUT! The Battles in Time comics
Not read them, but they don't look promising.
IN! The Sarah-Jane Adventures.
I know there's lots more I haven't considered either way, but time's getting on and I ought to go and do some work. I'll update later. smile
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:16 am
tennantsbutterfly I accept all Big Finish companions as being canon, even if they didn't appear in the series (eg, Evelyn, Hex, Charley, C'rizz, Lucie). A Sixth Doctor era without Evelyn feels unthinkable to me now, their friendship adds so much to ColDoc's character. smile What's your take on Big Finish companions like Frobisher and Bernice who originated in the comics or novels?
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:36 am
To be honest, I don't really know much about them. I've read a couple of the books with Benny in, but the rest...
I'll wait until I've heard or read a bit more.
I'd probably class them as canon, but I'm not sure.
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:33 am
Richard_Swift Mostly IN! Big Finish's spin-off audiosI've mentioned the Iris and Bernice audios already, but the Gallifrey , Dalek Empire and Davros ones make it in too. I'll decide about UNIT and Cyberman when I eventually get round to hearing them. I've listened to all the UNIT ones except the first one (it came with the DW magazine and so I can't get it from Big Finish - I'll find it on ebay at some point) and I can't see there being anything in them that would clash with your canon. There's some chaos on earth but nothing major. They're very good but a bit grim for my tastes without quite enough Brigadier. I shall do my canon list later. I really feel bad now that I've read hardly any comics or books. A lot of the books made me angry though, with their bad characterisation of some of the classic Doctors, so that's my excuse.
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:49 am
The books and audios are not part of my canon now because I've only read a couple of the books and have never heard any of the audios; later, I might end up adding some or a lot of them to my canon. Right now, my canon consists of the original series, the Eighth Doctor movie, and the new series, including the CiN specials and Christmas specials.
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:53 pm
Roobarb I've listened to all the UNIT ones except the first one (it came with the DW magazine and so I can't get it from Big Finish - I'll find it on ebay at some point) and I can't see there being anything in them that would clash with your canon. There's some chaos on earth but nothing major. They're very good but a bit grim for my tastes without quite enough Brigadier. Thanks. Is there one in particular that'd be good for me to try to get the flavour of the series? Roobarb I shall do my canon list later. It feels strangely satisfying. Though maybe that's just me, as I do love making lists. Roobarb I really feel bad now that I've read hardly any comics or books. A lot of the books made me angry though, with their bad characterisation of some of the classic Doctors, so that's my excuse. I've found the characterisation's of Doctors 1-6 are often annoyingly superficial in the novels compared with the Seventh and Eighth, since the writers had free-run to develop the later two. I don't think I've ever seen a novel really get Troughton right though, but then his Doctor's personality is perhaps the hardest to put your finger on. Which ones made you angry?
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:41 am
Oooh, here's something I haven't considered.
Which version of Shada to put in; The unfinished TomDoc story or the PaulDoc webcast?
With something like the Seventh Doctor version of Human Nature and the Tenth Doctor version we can get away with having both by following the writer's advice and considering that one was the pre-Time War version of events and one the post-Time War version. I'm a DC comics fan so used to making that sort of conceptual leap all the time, just using the word 'Crisis' instead of 'Time War'.
But we can't do that with the two Shadas as they both occur pre-Time War.
Of course, the Faction Paradox biodata that the Doctor aquires at the end of his third life comes into fruition in his Eighth (starting with the paradoxical 'temporal orbit' in the telemovie), so it's possible that could cause the same adventure to occur twice for him. Might be a bit of a push though.
I think I'll put a poll up.
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:22 am
Richard_Swift I don't think I've ever seen a novel really get Troughton right though, but then his Doctor's personality is perhaps the hardest to put your finger on. Which ones made you angry? The one that really got my back up was 'World Game' by Terrance Dicks. I'm all for having a few more Second Doctor stories jammed in before his regeneration - AND I'm a big Hornblower fan so the period's great for me - but I just really hated this one! It doesn't help that the companion is a forgettable nothing-as-good-as-Romana male fantasy timelady (I could overlook that) but then they have the Doctor just acting so un-second-Doctorish. He fights a rabid vampire with a horsewhip for goodness sake! And leaps onto a cart full of explosives, driving it into a fountain Indiana Jones style before leaping off at the last minute. There's loads of bits like that... yet funnily enough a lot of the book is also very slow and boring. It's not that the character was wrong all the way through, he had his very Troughton moments, there were just those bits of ridiculous heroism that did not sit well with me. EDIT: As far as UNIT goes... well to be honest they're all equal in my opinion and there's only 4 (?) I think so really my only advice is don't listen to 4 first. It connects with the first one (that I haven't seen) and wraps up that story. The rest stand alone. I'm just waiting for them to make some more...
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:37 pm
Roobarb The one that really got my back up was 'World Game' by Terrance Dicks. I'm all for having a few more Second Doctor stories jammed in before his regeneration - AND I'm a big Hornblower fan so the period's great for me - but I just really hated this one! It doesn't help that the companion is a forgettable nothing-as-good-as-Romana male fantasy timelady (I could overlook that) but then they have the Doctor just acting so un-second-Doctorish. He fights a rabid vampire with a horsewhip for goodness sake! And leaps onto a cart full of explosives, driving it into a fountain Indiana Jones style before leaping off at the last minute. There's loads of bits like that... yet funnily enough a lot of the book is also very slow and boring. It's not that the character was wrong all the way through, he had his very Troughton moments, there were just those bits of ridiculous heroism that did not sit well with me. Shame, I liked the Sixth Doctor novel Players (to which I think World Game is a sort-of sequel/prequel thingy) quite a lot, so I'd been looking forward to reading it some day. It's always sad when Uncle Terry's writing goes off the boil, isn't it? He's such a legend of Doctor Who that when some of his later novels fall pretty badly short of that I get all maudlin. I remember yelling "Why are you doing this to me?" at every even-numbered page of The Eight Doctors and "Why are you doing this to yourself?" at every odd-numbered page. I was glad to see the 'Season 6B' theory move into 'official' Doctor Who too. It makes getting your head around the continuity of The Five Doctors and The Two Doctors much more comfortable. smile Oh! And I've just thought of at least one novel that does give good Troughton! Mark ( League of Gentlemen/The Unquiet Dead) Gatiss really captures both him and Jaime in The Roundheads (Ben and Polly too, probably. But who cares about them?)
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:31 pm
Yes! 'The Eight Doctors' is another book that made me go 'hmm..' but I feel a little warmer towards that one because I basically love any multi-Doctor stories by default. Just seeing them argue with each other is the best. One book I love is 'Heart Of TARDIS' by Dave Stone - its a 2nd/4th Doctor crossover... only they never actually meet and the whole book is written as a tongue-in-cheek joke sci fi adventure. The plot's crazy but I love it.
The guy actually says at the back that he's seen next to no 2nd Doctor episodes and you can tell when you read that he's trying to mimic the feel of him rather than really knowing his mannerisms - but that I don't mind that because it did feel right. Also Victoria came off as really intelligent, which was disturbing.
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:21 pm
Roobarb Yes! 'The Eight Doctors' is another book that made me go 'hmm..' but I feel a little warmer towards that one because I basically love any multi-Doctor stories by default. I'm never sure what I think of multi-Doctor stories. I sort of think I'm opposed to them on principle, but then there's so many of them that I love (like The Three Doctors and Cold Fusion) that I can't really get away with holding that opinion. At the time it first came out, the Eight Doctors just scared the life out of me. It was the first BBC book after Virgin had lost the license and everyone thought the novels were going to be dumbed down into straightforward children's books ( rather like what's happened now. sad ). The Eight Doctors seemed to confirm that suspicion. Well, right up until the next BBC Eighth Doctor novel ( Vampire Science) put my mind at rest. So I think the book might get blamed not for how bad it is, but how bad a situation it suggested the books as a whole were in. Roobarb Just seeing them argue with each other is the best. One book I love is 'Heart Of TARDIS' by Dave Stone - its a 2nd/4th Doctor crossover... only they never actually meet and the whole book is written as a tongue-in-cheek joke sci fi adventure. The plot's crazy but I love it. The guy actually says at the back that he's seen next to no 2nd Doctor episodes and you can tell when you read that he's trying to mimic the feel of him rather than really knowing his mannerisms - but that I don't mind that because it did feel right. Also Victoria came off as really intelligent, which was disturbing. I'm a huge fan of Dave Stone's stuff (I'm halfway through listening to his latest Bernice audio, coincidentally) though he still has yet to write anything as good as his first two New Adventures. Heart Of TARDIS just confused me to be honest. Stone's a sneaky author and I'm sure there are things going on in that novel underneath the surface of the crazyness that I couldn't quite decode. Which drives me nuts. smile I might have another read of it at some point. Any Who story with a guest appearance by Doctor Hibbert is worthy of closer attention.
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:43 pm
Changed the poll.
Pleased with how the last one, on the status of Shada, turned out.
Nobody who voted ruled it non-canonical, with the highest number of people considering the Fourth Doctor version to be the 'real' story, but my prefered option (They both happened in some weird paradoxy way) being only one vote behind.
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:57 pm
I focus on the TV timeline but with the books and such I see some of them as part of the same timeline other's are time divergences, other reality's where something diverged from the main Doctor Who universe timeline
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