Mary Sue = Sexist?

[365 Mondays]

Those same problems occur in and the same criticisms are made about Gary Stu's.

I don't think it's sexist to say that characters have unrealistic aspects, and that those need to be changed. A main character needs to be someone whom the reader can relate to. They should seem normal.

That doesn't mean that, if female, they should scream at mice and constantly require help from knights in shining armor. They need their own personality and strengths, too. It's just that rediculously over-powered, invincible characters are impossible to relate to.

[Jaina-Organa-Solo]

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

Seems like the topic's wound down, but I feel like putting in my two cents anyway.

The itthue is not exactly that the character is "too" anything of one trait or another... it's whether or not they're "unrealistically" something. As in, unrealistically brave, strong, smart, or iron-stomached, like they can beat all of their peers in combat, top of class without trying, face down a dragon without wetting themselves, and not be at least made uncomfortable their first time seeing dismemberment/guro. See, THAT'S a mary-sue.

I would have said that also... Even if you where a person who liked gore, I am sure you would get sick or somthing while watching that for it may just be more then you thought it would be.

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.
( I have more then two cents.)

[x - Porcelain R o s e - x]

Archica

Yes, I totally agree that readers tend to be more lenient with Gary Stu's than with Mary Sue's. I touched on this lightly in the first post, but didn't go too deeply into it. I've seen it many times, where the main male character is the strongest, has special powers, is the "chosen one", etc. and people say nothing about it. But give a female these traits, and everyone will jump onto the bandwagon to criticize her. :/

I don't care if men are generally stronger than women in reality. That doesn't have to carry over to fantasy stories in every single case. And not ALL men are stronger than ALL women. With training and muscle building, women can be quite powerful even in real life.

I thought you mentioned it but I didn't remember. An example of this is in Bleach. I love that manga to death, but the MC Ichigo fits that dumb "Gary Stu" mold (I don't really care, but he does). And yet, no one cares (with good reason 'cause its a good manga and he's still a well developed character in my opinion). Let Ichigo have been a girl and that would have been completely different.

As for the men stronger than women, I prefer to read stories where in general men are stronger than the women in terms of brute, physical strength. It creeps me out when I read about women who are physically stronger than men. But, in terms of supernatural fantasy powers, I feel as though sex shouldn't really matter, like you said. It doesn't have to carry over into everything in fantasy.

xBRINGxITxDOWNx

From what you said, it sounds like most of what you said is about stories with female main characters and male secondary characters. The thing you have to understand here is that the main character has certain areas where they have to conform to normalcy. It's okay to have a secondary female character who's really strong, not squeamish, etc. But the protagonist needs to be somebody the audience can relate to, no matter the gender. The main character is a sort of vehicle for the story; the reader needs to be able to pretend they are that character, so that they become immersed in the events...

That's bullshit. All characters have to be realistic and relatable, not just the main characters. All characters have to "conform to normalcy". Its an all or none situation (even all characters are realistic and normal or none of them are, which, if done right, can make it a reality in and of itself so it doesn't matter).

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

Moreover, the definition of a Mary-sue does not necessarily hinge on any of the traits listed. My ultimate litmus is whether or not the character's point of view is always the same as the truth or the reality of the situation... which often leads to the more easily identifiable "always-right" syndrome.

neutral That doesn't make much sense. More often than not, especially in first person stories, the MC's opinion is going to be portrayed as the "truth". There's nothing wrong with that as most of the time, in real psychology, we rationalize things into not being our fault, being the fault of someone else, or nothing being wrong at all. Its an attribution error called a self-serving bias.

Or are you talking about something else?

Also, to your other points, you could simply call the character unrealistic instead of identifying single traits that when you have too much would make a character a poorly developed character. There's no need to make a set of traits that make a character bad at all. There are plenty of good reasons why a character could have an unrealistic amount of a trait and it all doesn't matter as long as its written well.

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

[Catena Carswell]

- L a d y S i -

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

Moreover, the definition of a Mary-sue does not necessarily hinge on any of the traits listed. My ultimate litmus is whether or not the character's point of view is always the same as the truth or the reality of the situation... which often leads to the more easily identifiable "always-right" syndrome.

neutral That doesn't make much sense. More often than not, especially in first person stories, the MC's opinion is going to be portrayed as the "truth". There's nothing wrong with that as most of the time, in real psychology, we rationalize things into not being our fault, being the fault of someone else, or nothing being wrong at all. Its an attribution error called a self-serving bias.

Or are you talking about something else?

Also, to your other points, you could simply call the character unrealistic instead of identifying single traits that when you have too much would make a character a poorly developed character. There's no need to make a set of traits that make a character bad at all. There are plenty of good reasons why a character could have an unrealistic amount of a trait and it all doesn't matter as long as its written well.

I meant as in the reality of the world around the character always matches their view of it. Naturally everyone believes their world-view to be right, it's a facet of humanity. But when a character's point of view is completely synchronous with how things ACTUALLY ARE, then we have a problem, because that simply does not happen, and when it does, it's unrealistic. ...Am I being clear? neutral

Well, yes, an unrealistic amount of a certain trait is fine, but unrealistic amounts of EVERY positive trait is not fine by any stretch of the imagination, and this is where characters run Sueish. Also, Sues arise from ignoring the very basic concept of min-maxing-- within reason, of course. A practical example would be Goku-- he's ridiculously strong, but almost retarded. Now, if he were a supergenius, he'd be a Mary-sue.

[x - Porcelain R o s e - x]

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

- L a d y S i -

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

Moreover, the definition of a Mary-sue does not necessarily hinge on any of the traits listed. My ultimate litmus is whether or not the character's point of view is always the same as the truth or the reality of the situation... which often leads to the more easily identifiable "always-right" syndrome.

neutral That doesn't make much sense. More often than not, especially in first person stories, the MC's opinion is going to be portrayed as the "truth". There's nothing wrong with that as most of the time, in real psychology, we rationalize things into not being our fault, being the fault of someone else, or nothing being wrong at all. Its an attribution error called a self-serving bias.

Or are you talking about something else?

Also, to your other points, you could simply call the character unrealistic instead of identifying single traits that when you have too much would make a character a poorly developed character. There's no need to make a set of traits that make a character bad at all. There are plenty of good reasons why a character could have an unrealistic amount of a trait and it all doesn't matter as long as its written well.

I meant as in the reality of the world around the character always matches their view of it. Naturally everyone believes their world-view to be right, it's a facet of humanity. But when a character's point of view is completely synchronous with how things ACTUALLY ARE, then we have a problem, because that simply does not happen, and when it does, it's unrealistic. ...Am I being clear? neutral

Well, yes, an unrealistic amount of a certain trait is fine, but unrealistic amounts of EVERY positive trait is not fine by any stretch of the imagination, and this is where characters run Sueish. Also, Sues arise from ignoring the very basic concept of min-maxing-- within reason, of course. A practical example would be Goku-- he's ridiculously strong, but almost retarded. Now, if he were a supergenius, he'd be a Mary-sue.

That makes more sense...though I'm not quite sure how that is horribly wrong if it really is true in their world. As in, the world isn't fitting the character's point of view but rather the character's point of view is fitting the world they're in...if that didn't make sense....then I guess you could say that instead of the world revolving around the character, the character revolves around their world and what they think is based on experiences and common sense. If a character's truth is the actual truth (or the author's opinion of the truth/the "non-truth" as there is technically no one "truth" wink , then what's wrong with that? I just don't think that's a sufficient way of describing a badly written character/story...

I think you sorta missed my point, lol. What I was saying is that the term "Sue/Stu" shouldn't be applied in any situation, period. Simply saying the character is unrealistic and what makes the character unrealistic (preferably in the execution of the character, not the traits themselves) will not only suffice but it will be more exact. No one should focus on the single traits of their characters alone but rather the character as a whole in the context of the story.

In other words, we shouldn't be basing the "bad character"/"good character" labels on the traits of the character.

[Jaina-Organa-Solo]

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

Quote:

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

Yes, I knew someone would say this. Most Characters, Mostly in Fan-fiction where MS is used most, the Original made up Character is a Typical Joe. A Normal person who is thrown in to a plotline.

I think it is the villans job not to care, However, it may not be.
Maybe the typical Joe as you says, Does not care. However, From the stories I read, most OCs would be not upset.... However, most humans would be upset for they never saw such a thing before ( All but horror movie freaks. Maybe.)

There is another dime.
( Jaina is rich...she has has lots of dimes. )

[x - Porcelain R o s e - x]

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

Quote:

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

Yes, I knew someone would say this. Most Characters, Mostly in Fan-fiction where MS is used most, the Original made up Character is a Typical Joe. A Normal person who is thrown in to a plotline.

I think it is the villans job not to care, However, it may not be.
Maybe the typical Joe as you says, Does not care. However, From the stories I read, most OCs would be not upset.... However, most humans would be upset for they never saw such a thing before ( All but horror movie freaks. Maybe.)

There is another dime.
( Jaina is rich...she has has lots of dimes. )

If you knew someone would say that you shouldn't have said it...I'm a "typical joe", as you put it. I'm just a normal person. I'm not a war vet. I'm not a gangster or criminal. I've never killed before in my life. I'm just an average girl who happens to not give a s**t about strangers as it happens all the time around me. I have to literally force myself to remember that death isn't the same as eating a sandwich (though I suppose in some ways it is...)

I don't know about where you live, but most of the people around these parts see violence and murders and crime everyday. Its a part of everyday life. You watch the news and you hear about an average of 5 murders a night. A lot of kids these days are desensitized to death because of the amount of death and violence around them in movies, TV shows, games, and sometimes their actual lives. Its not about "never seeing such a thing", its just about whether you care or not. And not caring is just not unrealistic.

Another example of labeling gone wrong...this is why I hate that stupid "Mary Sue" term.

[Jaina-Organa-Solo]

- L a d y S i -

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

Quote:

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

Yes, I knew someone would say this. Most Characters, Mostly in Fan-fiction where MS is used most, the Original made up Character is a Typical Joe. A Normal person who is thrown in to a plotline.

I think it is the villans job not to care, However, it may not be.
Maybe the typical Joe as you says, Does not care. However, From the stories I read, most OCs would be not upset.... However, most humans would be upset for they never saw such a thing before ( All but horror movie freaks. Maybe.)

There is another dime.
( Jaina is rich...she has has lots of dimes. )

If you knew someone would say that you shouldn't have said it...I'm a "typical joe", as you put it. I'm just a normal person. I'm not a war vet. I'm not a gangster or criminal. I've never killed before in my life. I'm just an average girl who happens to not give a s**t about strangers as it happens all the time around me. I have to literally force myself to remember that death isn't the same as eating a sandwich (though I suppose in some ways it is...)

I don't know about where you live, but most of the people around these parts see violence and murders and crime everyday. Its a part of everyday life. You watch the news and you hear about an average of 5 murders a night. A lot of kids these days are desensitized to death because of the amount of death and violence around them in movies, TV shows, games, and sometimes their actual lives. Its not about "never seeing such a thing", its just about whether you care or not. And not caring is just not unrealistic.

Another example of labeling gone wrong...this is why I hate that stupid "Mary Sue" term.

Ok, Well.. Um.. I don't watch the news.. I guess you are right! I don't really have much else to say...
Thanks for the chat!

[Firlodge_the_second]

Now, I have to admit that I have been known to call a character a Mary-sue when she wasn't a wimp because her upbringing suggested she should be a total wimp and not know how to take care of herself.

Let me pull an example out of my bottom:

Princess Opal has been sheltered her whole life; been given everything she's ever wanted, had everything done for her by servants and has never had to look after herself before. Indeed, no-one has let her. In short: she's been thoroughly pampered and spoiled.

When they escape without her servants, Princess Opal magically acquires the ability to take care of herself.

[Firlodge_the_second]

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Kitty Gnar-Gnar

Seems like the topic's wound down, but I feel like putting in my two cents anyway.

The itthue is not exactly that the character is "too" anything of one trait or another... it's whether or not they're "unrealistically" something. As in, unrealistically brave, strong, smart, or iron-stomached, like they can beat all of their peers in combat, top of class without trying, face down a dragon without wetting themselves, and not be at least made uncomfortable their first time seeing dismemberment/guro. See, THAT'S a mary-sue.

I would have said that also... Even if you where a person who liked gore, I am sure you would get sick or somthing while watching that for it may just be more then you thought it would be.

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.
( I have more then two cents.)

Yes, but unless it's someone important to you, you're not gonna care. Did you know that stranger A murdered stranger B on the other side of the world, character? Character may be silent in 'Oh gosh, that's terrible' way but life goes on, otherwise.

[x - Porcelain R o s e - x]

Jaina-Organa-Solo

- L a d y S i -

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

Quote:

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

Yes, I knew someone would say this. Most Characters, Mostly in Fan-fiction where MS is used most, the Original made up Character is a Typical Joe. A Normal person who is thrown in to a plotline.

I think it is the villans job not to care, However, it may not be.
Maybe the typical Joe as you says, Does not care. However, From the stories I read, most OCs would be not upset.... However, most humans would be upset for they never saw such a thing before ( All but horror movie freaks. Maybe.)

There is another dime.
( Jaina is rich...she has has lots of dimes. )

If you knew someone would say that you shouldn't have said it...I'm a "typical joe", as you put it. I'm just a normal person. I'm not a war vet. I'm not a gangster or criminal. I've never killed before in my life. I'm just an average girl who happens to not give a s**t about strangers as it happens all the time around me. I have to literally force myself to remember that death isn't the same as eating a sandwich (though I suppose in some ways it is...)

I don't know about where you live, but most of the people around these parts see violence and murders and crime everyday. Its a part of everyday life. You watch the news and you hear about an average of 5 murders a night. A lot of kids these days are desensitized to death because of the amount of death and violence around them in movies, TV shows, games, and sometimes their actual lives. Its not about "never seeing such a thing", its just about whether you care or not. And not caring is just not unrealistic.

Another example of labeling gone wrong...this is why I hate that stupid "Mary Sue" term.

Ok, Well.. Um.. I don't watch the news.. I guess you are right! I don't really have much else to say...
Thanks for the chat!

I see...that explains a lot...I guess I just forgot that not all children are really aware of anything. Ignorance truly is bliss.

Well anyway, you don't really have much of a right to say what's real and not real when you don't even know your own reality...

[Archica]

My computer isn't working (which is why I've been gone) so I'm using my PSP to post.

I think people are misunderstanding me again. This thread is not defending Mary Sues, nor is it saying that all female characters should be badasses. It is simply saying that when there is a female character who is realistically (or otherwise justifiably) strong or intelligent or even a little bit brave, we should not criticize her as a Mary Sue for that reason alone.

Will continue in next post. PSP has word limits.

[Archica]

Anyway, let me restate yet again that I am NOT saying that super strong, unrealistic female characters are just fine. I am NOT saying all female characters should be powerful, brilliant, and brave all at once. I am NOT saying that every single person who points out a Mary Sue is sexist. I know that not everyone incorrectly labels characters as Mary Sues, so please stop interpreting this as a personal attack. I believe only a few people do this, and they do so without thinking. My goal with this thread is to make people think a little more before blurting out "She's a Mary Sue!" because a character is able to defend herself from a common thug in an action story or knows how to use a bow and arrow if she's an elf in a fantasy story.

When it DOES make sense for a female to be strong or smart or otherwise capable, when it IS realistically done, when it's NOT just another cookie-cutter character with no personality, then we should frown upon those who call the character a Mary Sue. That's all I'm saying.

Your definition of a Mary Sue (or mine, for that matter) is irrelevant to this topic. Why Mary Sues suck is irrelevant to this topic. This thread is not a defense of Mary Sues. I specifically stated in the first post that I clearly understand the problem with creating Mary Sue characters and why any of the traits I listed can be annoying and poorly done and can apply to genuine Mary Sues.

Look at it this way: Imagine that you create a character who is not very powerful, but in the first chapter someone tries to mug her in an alley. She struggles with the attacker, and finally knee's him in the groin and runs off for help. Now imagine that someone comments to say "She's too strong! A real woman would be too scared to try fighting him off. Your character is a Mary Sue!" Would you find this just a little insulting? Especially if you're a woman who knows damn well that you would fight to the best of your ability if someone tried to mug you?

On the flip side, if your character grinned as she kicked the guy's a** and left him bleeding in the alley, with absolutely no explanation for her strength, I would join in with the rest of the people yelling "Mary Sue! Mary Sue!"

There's a difference between unrealistically powerful and capable of defending yourself.

[Jaina-Organa-Solo]

- L a d y S i -

Jaina-Organa-Solo

- L a d y S i -

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Jaina-Organa-Solo

I am just thinking that... Ok, Here is another Idea, ok, someone kills someone and the MC is silent and is not frightened, sad or upset and life continues... I mean, That is un-real.
That is just my dime.

Quote:

That's not unreal if the character is desensitized to killing or simply doesn't care, which is very possible. I know its possible because I'm pretty damn close to it myself. I witnessed a boy get banked (others ganged up on him and beat him up, for the slang-ignorant) and nearly beaten to death and I was easily able to walk away without much of a care. A man was laying (or lying?) shot outside my apartment door and I just wanted him and the cops to leave so I can get some soda. He probably deserved it, so I didn't really care.

Its quite easy to not care when killing is all you see around you.

Yes, I knew someone would say this. Most Characters, Mostly in Fan-fiction where MS is used most, the Original made up Character is a Typical Joe. A Normal person who is thrown in to a plotline.

I think it is the villans job not to care, However, it may not be.
Maybe the typical Joe as you says, Does not care. However, From the stories I read, most OCs would be not upset.... However, most humans would be upset for they never saw such a thing before ( All but horror movie freaks. Maybe.)

There is another dime.
( Jaina is rich...she has has lots of dimes. )

If you knew someone would say that you shouldn't have said it...I'm a "typical joe", as you put it. I'm just a normal person. I'm not a war vet. I'm not a gangster or criminal. I've never killed before in my life. I'm just an average girl who happens to not give a s**t about strangers as it happens all the time around me. I have to literally force myself to remember that death isn't the same as eating a sandwich (though I suppose in some ways it is...)

I don't know about where you live, but most of the people around these parts see violence and murders and crime everyday. Its a part of everyday life. You watch the news and you hear about an average of 5 murders a night. A lot of kids these days are desensitized to death because of the amount of death and violence around them in movies, TV shows, games, and sometimes their actual lives. Its not about "never seeing such a thing", its just about whether you care or not. And not caring is just not unrealistic.

Another example of labeling gone wrong...this is why I hate that stupid "Mary Sue" term.

Ok, Well.. Um.. I don't watch the news.. I guess you are right! I don't really have much else to say...
Thanks for the chat!

I see...that explains a lot...I guess I just forgot that not all children are really aware of anything. Ignorance truly is bliss.

Well anyway, you don't really have much of a right to say what's real and not real when you don't even know your own reality...

Ok, I am not a person who knows nothing about what is happening.
I have the internet and I read AOL and MSN most of the time! Also, I got the newspaper for a while So I know what is going on... Somewhat.

@ Firlodge_the_second: No, I would not do that. You are right, I don't are about person B. I am talking about if it was someone you knew.

[x - Porcelain R o s e - x]

Jaina-Organa-Solo

Ok, I am not a person who knows nothing about what is happening.
I have the internet and I read AOL and MSN most of the time! Also, I got the newspaper for a while So I know what is going on... Somewhat.

Sure...

Quote:

@ Firlodge_the_second: No, I would not do that. You are right, I don't are about person B. I am talking about if it was someone you knew.

Then why didn't you say "someone the character knew"? Just saying "someone" implied that you're talking about a stranger...