Christians

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

Actually Esiris, I never said that anyone HAD to ignore it, here you go again, putting words in my mouth, what I said is that they had freewill to look away if it offended them, never once have i said that people needed to be quiet or to leave me alone or not to pay attention to it or anything of the sort, I said that anyone that was offended by it had the same freewill that they used to look at it, to turn away. That is what I've been saying all along. So please, stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, it is very very insulting and very very stupid of you to do seeing as how i've kept track of everything that I've said.

I think there was an honest miscommunication here- for my part in that I apologize. Above you said "I was attacked and harrassed, so I responded..", since you view this as attacking and harassing you- that behavior would be against the rules of the guild and Gaia- which means they should stop their actions. Their actions consist of disagreeing with you and trying to educate you- which is what they see their oaths as asking them to do. Because you're saying they're doing something wrong when they're doing what they need to do in order to keep their word- it implies something you might not have meant it to.

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As I said, I've researched it, how hard is that to understand, it means that I've followed up on it with other resources to find that it was true, I mean "research" is a pretty specific thing here, even grade schoolers know what that means. I used a few different resources to narrow everything down to come to one single conclusion. I really didn't think that I would have to spell everything out for a person, I swear.

I'd like to ask you to step out and look at this form my perspective- research could be googling something and finding a witchvox article, or it could be following the procedures that Wiccan Seekers follow to obtain a vouch. I'd like to know which one we're talking about and why you're refusing to answer the question- which is really straight forward. When I talked to my HPS about going about finding verification, she listed several things- including some things that most of the people on this site don't usually mention. I'm just wondering which of these you used.

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The coven members that I've talked to told me that Self-Initiation requires just as much of a comitment as a First Degree Initiation, therefore, it is just as much a validation of A First Degree Initiation into a Coven and that most, if not all, Covens should recognize it as such because you are comitting yourself to the religion just as much as you would being initiated into a coven.

I'm not questioning someone's commitment- I'm questioning if it's Wicca or not because of what Wicca is and isn't. Because what makes Wicca Wicca is something you have to experience- how can you know you're experiencing the same thing unless you're guided by the people who know how to do it?

I brew my own ales (buying beer is so expensive! gonk ) You can go down to the store and buy beer- heck, you might even like what you buy better than what I would give you from my home batches- but drinking a Bud Light, or a Sam Adams, or a Blue Moon isn't the same as drinking my brew. Delicious and satisfying? Sure! But it isn't my brew and you won't be able to describe or reflect on my brew until you've had it.

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About my other information, yes, it is valid, you yourself just said so, the information that I am speaking of, wasn't just his, it was that covens, he has given me permission to speak of some of it, just not everything. It was wiccan, and for you to speak so blatantly about it without actually speaking to him, smacks of arrogance. You don't even know everything that he told me, yet you are blatantly saying that it's not wiccan, you need to close your mouth and actually think before you post on here. You said yourself that it is valid, I'm telling you now, it is Wiccan, and for you to dispute that without knowing everything, is very very insulting and actually mildly amusing to me since you obviously don't know everything he told me, meaning, you don't know for yourself if it is or isn't wicca, so tell me, how can you come to a claim without knowing all of the facts?

The reason you can tell it's not Wiccan is because GBG said some very specific things about what is and isn't Wiccan. You acknowledged that Wicca stems from Gardner- so if it contradicts what Gardner said- then it isn't Wiccan.

Gardner believed it takes a witch to make a witch- it's a reference to the initiation process, which can't be accomplished by Dedication.

Is there a chance you're thinking of Dedication and not Self-Initiation?  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Yes, i did say harrassing me, because it's the same constant thing over and over and over. It can't be seen as teaching, because I have provided proof that I am right about things that i've said and people continue to say is wrong. I talk to people, there are other things to use other than the internet, which has actually been mentioned quite frequently on this guild as well as other places. Oh yes, i'm so stupid as to get Dedication and Self-Initiation crossed, no, I know what Dedication is and I know what I was told by other Wiccans about Self-Initiation. I'm tired of trying to defend what other wiccans have told me is right against people who very very clearly don't care what is right in front of their faces. I'm sorry that none of you believe what I am telling you, but then again, I never actually thought any of you would, you just want to censor words and titles that people earn when you don't agree with them. Goodbye.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

It can't be seen as teaching, because I have provided proof that I am right about things that i've said and people continue to say is wrong.

Could you show me where the proof was again? For me to see it as proof- I have to be able to verify it myself. You haven't even listed the tradition or the way in which you obtained a verification on your vouch.

I'm not saying you're lying, but this is stuff that makes me suspicious- I mean, as a Seeker I'm able to provide that information- so as someone who isn't a Seeker, you should be able to provide that as well- you're under less of an obligation than I am.

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Oh yes, i'm so stupid as to get Dedication and Self-Initiation crossed, no, I know what Dedication is and I know what I was told by other Wiccans about Self-Initiation.

I'm not implying you're stupid. Mixing the concept of Self-Initiation and Dedication is very common- some groups treat them as the exact thing.

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I'm tired of trying to defend what other wiccans have told me is right against people who very very clearly don't care what is right in front of their faces.

The only thing in front of me is a username and a claim- no evidence, no information I can verify. I didn't take my HPS's word that she was who she said she was until I got information back- and she treated me kindly and with patience, explaining a lot of things in detail- why would I extend more to you than I did to her?

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I'm sorry that none of you believe what I am telling you, but then again, I never actually thought any of you would, you just want to censor words and titles that people earn when you don't agree with them. Goodbye.

Not using certain words to avoid hurting people is a good thing. I hate being called a ******- no matter who uses the word. I don't think it's fair to use words to hurt other people either.  

[MidnightLetter]

Kagaya Ookami...

When you joined this guild - you were advised not only via the Guild Homepage, but by the link to the Use of the word Wicca sticky as well, what the guild's views on the subject of Wicca were. One has to wonder...if you did not agree with those views, or were not interested in learning more about them, why you would have joined.

This guild is here, because there is a crap ton of misinformation out there, and because most of us have all been in the position of at one point thinking we were Wiccan, only to find out (in some cases painfully) that the things that we thought we knew, were in fact not true. Because it was a horrible experience for some of us - we provide the proper information - what you (and others) choose to do with it is up to you, but know that it is correct information.

This doesn't mean that what someone has been practicing is wrong, or not meaningful or valid - it just means that their path has been mislabeled. The unfortunate truth is that there is a lot of mislabeled paths out there, and the only way to stop it from happening to others is to let people know about it. Is it an uphill battle?...Totally, but if something is that important to us, then we have to try, no matter what.

A person's Tradition is not personal information, it's not oath-bound, it's not a state secret - it's simply saying - they are Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Kingstone, Moshian, etc... Giving a Tradition, allows others to verify - yes that Trad has valid lineage, or no, it doesn't. We could have avoided the whole conversation, if you'd just answered the question. The fact that you haven't speaks volumes, as I know no initiate who won't state their Tradition if asked.

I am locking this thread for now, if you have anything further to add, please feel free to do so in the Use of the word Wicca sticky. I would suggest re-reading it as well, as there are specific passages from Gerald Gardner's "teachings" listed, which show specifically why/how Wicca is to be passed, and why "self-initiation" isn't possible.