Christians

[Kagaya Ookami]

Esiris: The reason why I haven't disclosed any information about them, I have already answered, without asking them, I will not, it is not polite, nor is it morally right to do so. In fact, it smacks of broken trust. I'm sorry, but I will not tell anything else about them other than what they had told me about Self-Initiation. Yes, they gave me proof of their lineage, proof that I saw first hand when they presented me with it.

Sanguina: As for me lieing, I'd like to see you try to prove that I'm lieing seeing as i am not lieing to anyone. I am telling you what two members of a lineaged coven has told me. If you don't like it and think that it is wrong, then that is your problem, apparently, what you've been told is wrong because TWO lineaged wiccans have told me (to my face) that what I have been saying on here, is right. I'm sorry that you think that I am lieing, but apparently, you don't care about what I am telling you, seeing as how when I have given proof that I have the right to the title that I claim, you want to censor me from claiming it, which is my right to do so.  

[Viz_22]

Kagaya Ookami, you're wasting your finger's breath. You haven't been able to give any evidence to those who've asked. And from the argument/debate you've started, I doubt I trust your source as a form of information regarding Wicca. There are plenty of "Wicca" books that say self initiation is valid for Wicca, but what's being said and described is not Wicca at all.


You may not see this *yet* but that's a fact. Hell, I only call myself Wiccan as a way to tell the hospital what religion I am. It's not accurate, but then again I wasn't the one who told the nurse that I am either.... But I acknowledge that what I practice is not Wicca but an eclectic-ish style that I'm developing to honor my deities.

You are not Wiccan.

Why'd I get involved in this type of thing again.... -.-  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Viz_22: Apparently you are too blind or ignorant to actually pay attention to my posts, in them I have told you my sources, in fact, in my latest posts, I've told you that two of my sources are lineaged wiccans, if you are too blind or ignorant to see this, which i feel the need to point out, is right in front of your face, then that is your problem. I'm sorry that you've closed yourself off and refused to see that which is right in front of your face.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

Esiris: The reason why I haven't disclosed any information about them, I have already answered, without asking them, I will not, it is not polite, nor is it morally right to do so. In fact, it smacks of broken trust. I'm sorry, but I will not tell anything else about them other than what they had told me about Self-Initiation.

Saying which tradition isn't breaking trust- especially since there is no personal information being provided.

Quote:

Yes, they gave me proof of their lineage, proof that I saw first hand when they presented me with it.

But providing you with something and you verifying it are two different things.
What actions did you take to verify it?

Hey Morg? I have a question for you. If, as Kagaya Ookami says, lineaged Wiccans were saying that Self-initiation was a valid way to be a 1* Wiccan, would that mean they broke their oath and what they were doing was no longer Wicca?

Xaolu

The true legit people I have meet; however, have been rude and rather exclusive. I understand the exclusivity part, but theres no reason to act like someone is less than you just because you've been initiated and the such. that's what I'm talking about. It's not a special club with member badges and secret hand shakes ( I'm just assuming, I don't really know what goes on at these things.); and a lot of people don't realize that you're not cooler just because you're part of a mystery religion. You are not special.

Being rude- like Morg said, isn't okay. But protecting the Craft by maintaining the oaths isn't there to make other people feel bad- and if someone does feel bad, then they're not really right for Wicca.

One of the things that drives me up the wall when dealing with other Seekers is that so much of the attitude is all about them. Very few Seekers I have spent any length of time with have thought about what they can offer to the coven personally, or the Lord and Lady.

Not all, but a lot of my experience with people who resent others differences and merits is that they don't feel their personal specialness is being recognized and it leads to hurt feelings.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Esiris: See, that is where you are wrong, they told me these things in trust. I will not break that trust just so that I can prove a few people wrong, I know what I was told and shown, if people won't or can't believe me on my word, then that is their problem. I will not break the trust of my friends on something so shallow. That being said, I never once went out of my way to say that I wanted anyone in this guild to recognize me, in fact, I told people that it was my right to claim the title, and if you didn't notice, when this first started up, I tried to leave it at that until people started calling me a liar and telling me that I didn't have proof, I was trying to be nice about it and told people that I didn't like that it i was being censored when I was using a word that i had earned. But no, I was attacked and harrassed, so I responded, all i've tried to do on here is defend myself against people calling me a liar. So if you have a problem with me, look at others who I have only responded to Esiris before you start pointing fingers.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

Esiris: See, that is where you are wrong, they told me these things in trust. I will not break that trust just so that I can prove a few people wrong, I know what I was told and shown, if people won't or can't believe me on my word, then that is their problem.

The problem is- you're asking people to trust something that contradicts the words of others who have been verified.

Quote:

I told people that it was my right to claim the title, and if you didn't notice, when this first started up, I tried to leave it at that until people started calling me a liar and telling me that I didn't have proof, I was trying to be nice about it and told people that I didn't like that it i was being censored when I was using a word that i had earned.

The problem is that they have shown that you haven't earned it and you haven't shown you have. You're asking us to take your word for it- and you're demanding that people like Morg break their oath. How is that supposed to be okay?
Asking people to be quiet about something they promised to defend against is asking them to be liars.

Why is your use of the word more important than their oaths to their coven and the Lord and Lady?

If you will not give the tradition they are a part of- would you at least tell us how you obtained the verification of their claims?  

[Morgandria]

Esiris

Hey Morg? I have a question for you. If, as Kagaya Ookami says, lineaged Wiccans were saying that Self-initiation was a valid way to be a 1* Wiccan, would that mean they broke their oath and what they were doing was no longer Wicca?

Do I think it means a broken oath? Not nescessarily. If they aren't providing a person with any information that's oathbound, but merely saying that it was valid and you could do it, it's not oathbreaking. If, however, they were giving out oathbound info to people for the purposes of performing 'self-initiation', or afterwards sharing oathbound information with those who 'self-initiated', then I would consider it oathbreaking.

Do I think that holding self-initiation into Wicca valid, and advising people that self-initiation is a valid 1st degree initiation in traditional Wicca is part of the core? No. I think doing this makes a break with the core of Wiccan practice, and depending on what else they may do, might possibly remove their current practices to some other form of neo-pagan witchcraft.

They may have their reasons for doing so. But people can and do 'break' from Wicca proper, even if they are 3rd degree Elders with years of practice. That experience can't and doesn't make the new thing they move onto Wicca.  

[Esiris]

Morgandria

Do I think it means a broken oath? Not nescessarily. If they aren't providing a person with any information that's oathbound, but merely saying that it was valid and you could do it, it's not oathbreaking. If, however, they were giving out oathbound info to people for the purposes of performing 'self-initiation', or afterwards sharing oathbound information with those who 'self-initiated', then I would consider it oathbreaking.

Do I think that holding self-initiation into Wicca valid, and advising people that self-initiation is a valid 1st degree initiation in traditional Wicca is part of the core? No. I think doing this makes a break with the core of Wiccan practice, and depending on what else they may do, might possibly remove their current practices to some other form of neo-pagan witchcraft.

They may have their reasons for doing so. But people can and do 'break' from Wicca proper, even if they are 3rd degree Elders with years of practice. That experience can't and doesn't make the new thing they move onto Wicca.

Thanks for the explanation. I was trying to understand if changing the core by including "self-initiation" was breaking the oath to protect the craft.

I am looking forward to my HPS' next visit when I can pick her brain about this stuff some more. sweatdrop  

[Morgandria]

Esiris

Thanks for the explanation. I was trying to understand if changing the core by including "self-initiation" was breaking the oath to protect the craft.

I am looking forward to my HPS' next visit when I can pick her brain about this stuff some more. sweatdrop

I guess it would be a matter of perspective, for the oathbreaking. If you are giving out Wicca to those not 'properly prepared', it's oathbreaking. If you think someone is exposing the Wica to harm in some way - abuse, exploitation, harassment - by advising for and allowing 'self-initiation' as valid, then it might be considered oathbreaking.

But it's fairly clear, in my mind, that self-initiation has no place in Wicca, and cannot make a Wiccan. Gardner didn't structure the faith to be accesible or practiced by individuals. Reading Gardner's writings makes it clear he holds initiation to be an induction and acceptance into a circle of people, as per the actual definition of the word. Self-initiation doesn't qualify.

Part of the joys of having individual autonomy is you end up with covens that might hold radically different ideas. The witch queens and elders do meet and talk, to sort those sorts of issues out, but really, that's about it for authority.  

[Esiris]

That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you Morg. You have a way with words. heart  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Esiris: Thank you for putting words in my mouth, I never once said that people had to be liars, and I never once demanded that anyone be oath breakers. and you are being a hypocrite, in your words: "The problem is- you're asking people to trust something that contradicts the words of others who have been verified." Those words are the ones that you typed. What I said, is if they can't believe me based on my words, then that is their problem, I never once told anyone that they had to believe me, merely that if they don't, then that is on them. I have my valid sources, I do not want to disclose anything further about them due to them telling me things in faith and trust, which i will not break. And yes, they are valid wiccans, I have researched it. The reason I say you are a hypocrite is because you are asking me to believe someone elses word over a verified source(s) of my own. And no, they didn't tell me how to perform any rituals or anything from their coven, they merely told me that it is a valid initiation up to First Degree. I found the information on my own through other sources, and yes, I'm sure that someone will say that the information then can't be valid since nothing is actually available to the public, except for one thing, the source that I got the information from was a follower of wicca, in fact, they were a third degree initiate that separated from the coven that they were a part of, they had also shown me the validation of that coven, and yes, I'm sure that you'd say that the person wasn't a follower of Wicca at that time, sure, I'll admit to that, but the information that they gave me was still valid.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

I never once demanded that anyone be oath breakers.

When you take an action that they need to respond to because of their oath and then demand they ignore it- you are. That's what we have been saying.

Quote:

And yes, they are valid wiccans, I have researched it. The reason I say you are a hypocrite is because you are asking me to believe someone elses word over a verified source(s) of my own.

If you read my posts- I said you should verify Morg's bona fides yourself- that isn't hypocrisy. If you missed it- it's okay, I can link you back to the post where I said that.

What did you do to verify their lineage? Explain exactly. These are your own actions- so they're not something that was given to you in confidence, which means that you should be able to share there.

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And no, they didn't tell me how to perform any rituals or anything from their coven, they merely told me that it is a valid initiation up to First Degree.

Up to First Degree? So- not including First Degree?

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I found the information on my own through other sources, and yes, I'm sure that someone will say that the information then can't be valid since nothing is actually available to the public, except for one thing, the source that I got the information from was a follower of wicca, in fact, they were a third degree initiate that separated from the coven that they were a part of, they had also shown me the validation of that coven, and yes, I'm sure that you'd say that the person wasn't a follower of Wicca at that time, sure, I'll admit to that, but the information that they gave me was still valid.

The information may be valid and fulfilling- but it isn't Wiccan.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Actually Esiris, I never said that anyone HAD to ignore it, here you go again, putting words in my mouth, what I said is that they had freewill to look away if it offended them, never once have i said that people needed to be quiet or to leave me alone or not to pay attention to it or anything of the sort, I said that anyone that was offended by it had the same freewill that they used to look at it, to turn away. That is what I've been saying all along. So please, stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, it is very very insulting and very very stupid of you to do seeing as how i've kept track of everything that I've said. As I said, I've researched it, how hard is that to understand, it means that I've followed up on it with other resources to find that it was true, I mean "research" is a pretty specific thing here, even grade schoolers know what that means. I used a few different resources to narrow everything down to come to one single conclusion. I really didn't think that I would have to spell everything out for a person, I swear. The coven members that I've talked to told me that Self-Initiation requires just as much of a comitment as a First Degree Initiation, therefore, it is just as much a validation of A First Degree Initiation into a Coven and that most, if not all, Covens should recognize it as such because you are comitting yourself to the religion just as much as you would being initiated into a coven. About my other information, yes, it is valid, you yourself just said so, the information that I am speaking of, wasn't just his, it was that covens, he has given me permission to speak of some of it, just not everything. It was wiccan, and for you to speak so blatantly about it without actually speaking to him, smacks of arrogance. You don't even know everything that he told me, yet you are blatantly saying that it's not wiccan, you need to close your mouth and actually think before you post on here. You said yourself that it is valid, I'm telling you now, it is Wiccan, and for you to dispute that without knowing everything, is very very insulting and actually mildly amusing to me since you obviously don't know everything he told me, meaning, you don't know for yourself if it is or isn't wicca, so tell me, how can you come to a claim without knowing all of the facts?