Christians

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami, her own profile claims she was initiated in 1986, but Gerald Gardner died in 1964.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

I don't have the book with me since I am not at home at the moment, so i'm sorry, but i can't tell you what tradition she is an initiate of, but it states quite clearly in Family Wicca by: Ashleen O'Gaea that she is a follower of Gerald Gardener.

Gardner is only mentioned three times- once being credited with creating Wicca (223), once to quote Triumph of the Moon in the introduction, and once in reference to the Charge of the Goddess(212).

I think part of the frustration is that as an author, she mentions good sources like Triumph of the Moon- which reaffirms what Mograndria and the others have said about what Wicca is and isn't- but it then ignores it when it doesn't further her claims.

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I understand completely, you want to censor a word, I want to use that word,

Sometimes what we want and what is right aren't always the same thing. I remember being confused when I first learned about this stuff. I'm still confused- but my HPS is helping with that by providing me with good books that explain history and the lore.

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About your analogy, sure, I would be annoyed with people who were doing those things, but if they feel that is right, then let them be. Do you really think that if somone believes strongly about what they believe in, that they will just up and change because someone comes up and says "oh, hey, that isn't right, your believing in something that isn't real, you need to stop doing this." no, they will still believe that way unless someone provides very definite proof that they are wrong.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the beliefs aren't real- it's all about if those beliefs are properly called Wicca or not.
If someone said they were worshiping Satan and they're Wiccans- would you tell them it isn't Wicca?

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If nothing wicca is found to the public, then how do you explain covens here in the united states. if nothing wicca is available to the public, then the only valid covens are in europe, the points that you try to make undermine you on every turn. I'm sorry, but I think I'll go with a book that clearly shows me what is right with proof than you trying to spout off nonsense to me while you are undermining yourself.

Being open to the public is about someone being able to walk into a ritual. I live in the United States, but my home isn't open to the public.

Wicca is like that. Sure it exists, and people can be part of it- but they have to be invited and participate.

In the early days of Wicca- some Wiccans traveled to the United Kingdom to be initiated. Some UK citizens moved to the US. That's how Wicca came to be over here.  

[Morgandria]

Kagaya Ookami

The basis that i'm saying you are wrong is that you are telling me that I am doing something wrong when it states, plain as day in a book that was published by a follower of Gerald Gardener, that self-initiation is just as valid to a coven as initiation done in the coven up to a first initiation because it may be less formal, but requires just as much commitment. I don't have the book with me since I am not at home at the moment, so i'm sorry, but i can't tell you what tradition she is an initiate of, but it states quite clearly in Family Wicca by: Ashleen O'Gaea that she is a follower of Gerald Gardener. And about what I put in my signature, I've already explained that, whatever I put in my signature is between me and gaiaonline.com. I didn't express a lack of care, merely that it is my signature and due to the fact that gaiaonline says what i can and cannot put in it, I can put what i want as long as the site administrators are ok with it, if someone in a guild doesn't like what they read, then they can choose not to look at it. It doesn't show a lack of care or understanding. I understand completely, you want to censor a word, I want to use that word, and I will use that word because according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, whom you hold in such high regard, I've earned it. About your analogy, sure, I would be annoyed with people who were doing those things, but if they feel that is right, then let them be. Do you really think that if somone believes strongly about what they believe in, that they will just up and change because someone comes up and says "oh, hey, that isn't right, your believing in something that isn't real, you need to stop doing this." no, they will still believe that way unless someone provides very definite proof that they are wrong.

Morgandria:
Seeing as how you've even spelled Ashleen O'Gaea's name wrong, I very highly doubt that you've even researched her or the book that i mentioned. If you had, you wouldn't have had to ask me where she 'cites Gardener as her source for self-initiation'. If nothing wicca is found to the public, then how do you explain covens here in the united states. if nothing wicca is available to the public, then the only valid covens are in europe, the points that you try to make undermine you on every turn. I'm sorry, but I think I'll go with a book that clearly shows me what is right with proof than you trying to spout off nonsense to me while you are undermining yourself.

1) I can google Ms. O'Gaea's website and read her own profile from said website quickly and easily. You're correct that I haven't read her book, but I'm unlikely to at any point since it seems to be the source of your misinformation.

She claims to have founded her own tradition of "Adventure Wicca". This is not a recognized lineaged tradition. Previous to this, her foundation and work seems to be from the Aquarian Tabernacle Church, which founded itself in 1979. ATC is not a tradition of Wicca with lineage to Gardner. While it claims to be based on British Traditional Wicca, it clearly is far enough removed in practice from the core of Wicca to not qualify as such. I also add that it claims not to be an initiatory organization, which removes it from qualifying as Wicca entirely.

If her partner and herself initiated each other, neither of them had the initiation or elevations nescessary to perform the proper rite, in the manner Gardner himself created and deems nescessary.
This is why I asked you for a source for your statement that Gardner said self-initiation was valid and appropriate, that would legitimize Ms. O'Gaea's claims, and yours, for such a thing. I have read Gardner's own thoughts and words on the matter many times, and I've never seen such a statement.
Gardner was quite clear on the things that made Wiccans, and one of them was being initiated in the proper manner. In the early days, it meant initiation by Gardner, or initiation by one of his priestesses'. These days, it means initiation by a priest or priestess whose own initiatory lineage began with Gerald Gardner. Such a lineage may be 6 ot 7 people long, at this point.

She can say whatever she likes. But if she was following Gardner, she would be an initiate in a lineaged tradition. She is not.

I am not saying, by the by, that Ms. O'Gaea, is not practicing some sort of fufilling, valid witchcraft. I'm sure it is, for her and others, and they have every right to practice as they will. But it isn't Wicca, and they need to call it something else.

I'm sorry you disagree with initated Wiccans maintaining their own standards. I'm sorry you seem to be unable to understand that they have the right to do this, and instead need to be verbally abusive to those who dare to disagree with you. I understand that the notions you cherish are precious to you. I also understand how painful it can be when cherished notions turn out to be utter bullshit. You have the option to change your path. It's your choice whether you prefer bullshit over truth.

2) Wow. Really? People can travel, you know. My high priestess is British. People can and have brought lineaged Wicca to North America, and elsewhere. Emigration isn't magic.

3) I've already told you - do whatever you like. You will earn the consequences of your actions in time - whether that's hitting the 'Wicca 101' wall where there's no more information available and you stagnate in your practice, or you encounter a proper coven and you become aware of your deficiencies, or even that you just stay willfully ignorant, and oblivious.

I don't have any energy to waste trying to help or educate people who don't want to learn. It's no skin off my nose. I've maintained my oaths, and you can go on your merry way.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kagaya Ookami

The basis that i'm saying you are wrong is that you are telling me that I am doing something wrong when it states, plain as day in a book that was published by a follower of Gerald Gardener, that self-initiation is just as valid to a coven as initiation done in the coven up to a first initiation because it may be less formal, but requires just as much commitment.

This woman has been shown to not be a Wiccan, nor a follower of Gardner. So you can accept that she was mistaken, or that she was lying, basically. She is not a Wiccan, and cannot change the rules of Wicca.

Even if we accept that self-initiation is valid, that doesn't mean it's a valid way to become Wiccan. You can be as committed as you like to your path, and I certainly hope you are, but that will never make that path Wicca.

I don't have the book with me since I am not at home at the moment, so i'm sorry, but i can't tell you what tradition she is an initiate of, but it states quite clearly in Family Wicca by: Ashleen O'Gaea that she is a follower of Gerald Gardener.

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And about what I put in my signature, I've already explained that, whatever I put in my signature is between me and gaiaonline.com.

....and everyone that reads it. If you don't want people to read it and react to it, don't put anything in there that will offend people.

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I didn't express a lack of care, merely that it is my signature and due to the fact that gaiaonline says what i can and cannot put in it, I can put what i want as long as the site administrators are ok with it, if someone in a guild doesn't like what they read, then they can choose not to look at it.

I'm sort of confused as to what you're saying here. Are you wishing to restrict free speech, if people want to make a comment on a claim you've made, simply because this claim is in your signature rather than a comment in a thread?

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It doesn't show a lack of care or understanding. I understand completely, you want to censor a word, I want to use that word, and I will use that word because according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, whom you hold in such high regard, I've earned it.

Actually I still don't think you understand at all. Are you sure you've read the sticky? neutral

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no, they will still believe that way unless someone provides very definite proof that they are wrong.

Easy enough to do. The problem is that people tend to ignore it.
How about you. The others have easily shown that O'Gaea is not a Wiccan and cannot speak for Wicca. She cannot give you the go-ahead to self-initiate into a religion that doesn't allow for it. This is proof that you are wrong, isn't it?  

[Kagaya Ookami]

@ Esiris: Yes, she was Initiated in 1986, yes, Gerald Gardner died in 1964, but his teaching are very much alive yes? The point that I am trying to make is that she is following his teachings from others. If they have it wrong, which you all are clearly saying, then apparently, the man that you hold in such high regard is wrong as well.

@Sanguina: I wasn't saying anything about cesoring free speech, merely that if anyone has a problem with what I put in my signature, then they have the same free will that made them look at it, to merely avert their eyes. You had said that I had expressed a lack of concern, I hadn't done anything of the sort, I had merely stated that if the person(s), didn't like what they saw, that they didn't have to look at it, as is their free will. I haven't said anything about censoring or restricting anything. As far as me being wrong, I've talked to wiccan's in san diego, both me and my fiancee have, and they have told me the exact same thing as what was in Ashleen O'Gaea's book, Self Initiation into Wicca is valid up to the First Initiation because it requires just as much of a comittment as a First Initiation into a Coven. This came from a priest and a priestess in a lineaged coven, I'm sorry that I cannot give your their names or the name of their coven, but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them nor have they expressed the need or want of me to give that information. So you see my dilema, I have a few people on here telling me that it is wrong, and yet I have lineaged coven members telling me the complete and utter opposite of what you are telling me. In my shoes, who would you believe?  

[Morgandria]

Kagaya Ookami

@ Esiris: Yes, she was Initiated in 1986, yes, Gerald Gardner died in 1964, but his teaching are very much alive yes? The point that I am trying to make is that she is following his teachings from others. If they have it wrong, which you all are clearly saying, then apparently, the man that you hold in such high regard is wrong as well.

@Sanguina: I wasn't saying anything about cesoring free speech, merely that if anyone has a problem with what I put in my signature, then they have the same free will that made them look at it, to merely avert their eyes. You had said that I had expressed a lack of concern, I hadn't done anything of the sort, I had merely stated that if the person(s), didn't like what they saw, that they didn't have to look at it, as is their free will. I haven't said anything about censoring or restricting anything. As far as me being wrong, I've talked to wiccan's in san diego, both me and my fiancee have, and they have told me the exact same thing as what was in Ashleen O'Gaea's book, Self Initiation into Wicca is valid up to the First Initiation because it requires just as much of a comittment as a First Initiation into a Coven. This came from a priest and a priestess in a lineaged coven, I'm sorry that I cannot give your their names or the name of their coven, but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them nor have they expressed the need or want of me to give that information. So you see my dilema, I have a few people on here telling me that it is wrong, and yet I have lineaged coven members telling me the complete and utter opposite of what you are telling me. In my shoes, who would you believe?

Wow.

You don't get it. You won't ever get it. You don't want to get it. Have fun with that.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

@ Esiris: Yes, she was Initiated in 1986, yes, Gerald Gardner died in 1964, but his teaching are very much alive yes? The point that I am trying to make is that she is following his teachings from others. If they have it wrong, which you all are clearly saying, then apparently, the man that you hold in such high regard is wrong as well.

His teachings are alive and well- but they're only found in specific groups. How do you know she found one of those groups and not someone else who was either faking it (it happens) or made it up and didn't know what they were talking about?

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I've talked to wiccan's in san diego, both me and my fiancee have, and they have told me the exact same thing as what was in Ashleen O'Gaea's book, Self Initiation into Wicca is valid up to the First Initiation because it requires just as much of a comittment as a First Initiation into a Coven.

How did you verify they're Wiccans?
While I'm seeking- if I'm serious enough about a coven to considered being initiated into Wicca by them, I ask for information from them that I can obtain a confirmation that they had access to the teachings and that they've maintained them. There are lots of other good groups out there- but my personal reason for looking for a Wiccan coven has to do with Wicca- not the other groups, so I want to make sure I'm working with people who have kept that practice.

If I wanted to- right now, I could log onto Witchvox and make up a story about being part of a Wiccan coven- my work under the Kingstone coven I was with, some idle chatter from Alexandrian and Kingstone friends, and the things I have learned from my HPS would be enough to convince someone who wasn't initiated that I was Wiccan. Some of that is easier because Wicca is a Mystery Religion and some secrets are only known to people who are initiated- so what a lot of people read isn't really Wicca. I could probably pull the wool over their eyes. Any lineaged Wiccan would ask me a couple questions, make some phone calls and find out I was a boldfaced liar.

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This came from a priest and a priestess in a lineaged coven, I'm sorry that I cannot give your their names or the name of their coven, but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them nor have they expressed the need or want of me to give that information.

If you do not know their names or the name of their coven- how do you know they are lineaged?

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In my shoes, who would you believe?

The people I could verify. I've been in your shoes- and still am. I'm not initiated- every time I read something I have to check if it's right. I talk to my HPS.

I met my HPS on another website. I had never met her before face to face. We talked. I had concerns about how good a fit the coven I was working with would be for me. We chatted- we met up for drinks and to hang out. We got to know each other. The more I talked with her the more comfortable I felt. I had met posers and I had come across some people who were really rude. "Cheeky" as my HPS put it. Some of it is disposition- some of it is that enough frustration and disrespect, everyone will get a little testy.

Since I really liked her and she really liked me- she agreed to take me on as a student in her Outer Court. I respectfully asked if I could have enough information to verify she was who she said she was. I waited a lot longer than someone else might have. I'm seeking- so I don't feel I have the right to jump up every time someone says they're Wiccan. I waited until I felt like not knowing would hamper my seeking- then I asked.

I know enough about Wicca to respect it- and the people who have dedicated themselves to the service. My HPS doesn't mind when people say Blessed Be or call themselves Wiccan when they're eclectic. People here do. Morgandria has an oath to uphold, and I'd bet it's frustrating and hurtful to see people using the word when they can't even relate to what she has experienced as an initiate. (Not trying to speak for Morg or anything- just guessing based on what she's said in the past)

I figure even if my HPS doesn't get frustrated or hurt- that I should be respectful enough of Morg's feelings to not use those words and titles. I tend not to do it anyway- so it's easier for me than it is for you. You're being told "Please stop- it hurts me to see X" and you're response is "I like X and hurting you doesn't matter to me!" No one can make you change it.

But if you won't accept Morgandria's word at face value- that Wicca is an Initiatory Mystery Religion with a lineage that traces it's way back to GBG- then I'd ask a favor. You're taking this author's word at face value. If you won't do it for Morg, then you shouldn't do it for them either. If you insist that they're really Wiccan- join Amber and Jet, read through and when you're ready, ask for a vouch for the author and one for Morg. (You'll have to contact her for the information you'll need)

If you're willing to really do the leg work- to really find out if you've been fed a line or if the author or Morg is telling the truth- then you shouldn't be afraid of what you'll find out. If you're not willing- if this is just an ego trip, and you don't care about the truth- only what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, then I don't expect you'll do it.  

[Xaolu]

Esiris

Kagaya Ookami

@ Esiris: Yes, she was Initiated in 1986, yes, Gerald Gardner died in 1964, but his teaching are very much alive yes? The point that I am trying to make is that she is following his teachings from others. If they have it wrong, which you all are clearly saying, then apparently, the man that you hold in such high regard is wrong as well.

His teachings are alive and well- but they're only found in specific groups. How do you know she found one of those groups and not someone else who was either faking it (it happens) or made it up and didn't know what they were talking about?

Quote:

I've talked to wiccan's in san diego, both me and my fiancee have, and they have told me the exact same thing as what was in Ashleen O'Gaea's book, Self Initiation into Wicca is valid up to the First Initiation because it requires just as much of a comittment as a First Initiation into a Coven.

How did you verify they're Wiccans?
While I'm seeking- if I'm serious enough about a coven to considered being initiated into Wicca by them, I ask for information from them that I can obtain a confirmation that they had access to the teachings and that they've maintained them. There are lots of other good groups out there- but my personal reason for looking for a Wiccan coven has to do with Wicca- not the other groups, so I want to make sure I'm working with people who have kept that practice.

If I wanted to- right now, I could log onto Witchvox and make up a story about being part of a Wiccan coven- my work under the Kingstone coven I was with, some idle chatter from Alexandrian and Kingstone friends, and the things I have learned from my HPS would be enough to convince someone who wasn't initiated that I was Wiccan. Some of that is easier because Wicca is a Mystery Religion and some secrets are only known to people who are initiated- so what a lot of people read isn't really Wicca. I could probably pull the wool over their eyes. Any lineaged Wiccan would ask me a couple questions, make some phone calls and find out I was a boldfaced liar.

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This came from a priest and a priestess in a lineaged coven, I'm sorry that I cannot give your their names or the name of their coven, but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them nor have they expressed the need or want of me to give that information.

If you do not know their names or the name of their coven- how do you know they are lineaged?

Quote:

In my shoes, who would you believe?

The people I could verify. I've been in your shoes- and still am. I'm not initiated- every time I read something I have to check if it's right. I talk to my HPS.

I met my HPS on another website. I had never met her before face to face. We talked. I had concerns about how good a fit the coven I was working with would be for me. We chatted- we met up for drinks and to hang out. We got to know each other. The more I talked with her the more comfortable I felt. I had met posers and I had come across some people who were really rude. "Cheeky" as my HPS put it. Some of it is disposition- some of it is that enough frustration and disrespect, everyone will get a little testy.

Since I really liked her and she really liked me- she agreed to take me on as a student in her Outer Court. I respectfully asked if I could have enough information to verify she was who she said she was. I waited a lot longer than someone else might have. I'm seeking- so I don't feel I have the right to jump up every time someone says they're Wiccan. I waited until I felt like not knowing would hamper my seeking- then I asked.

I know enough about Wicca to respect it- and the people who have dedicated themselves to the service. My HPS doesn't mind when people say Blessed Be or call themselves Wiccan when they're eclectic. People here do. Morgandria has an oath to uphold, and I'd bet it's frustrating and hurtful to see people using the word when they can't even relate to what she has experienced as an initiate. (Not trying to speak for Morg or anything- just guessing based on what she's said in the past)

I figure even if my HPS doesn't get frustrated or hurt- that I should be respectful enough of Morg's feelings to not use those words and titles. I tend not to do it anyway- so it's easier for me than it is for you. You're being told "Please stop- it hurts me to see X" and you're response is "I like X and hurting you doesn't matter to me!" No one can make you change it.

But if you won't accept Morgandria's word at face value- that Wicca is an Initiatory Mystery Religion with a lineage that traces it's way back to GBG- then I'd ask a favor. You're taking this author's word at face value. If you won't do it for Morg, then you shouldn't do it for them either. If you insist that they're really Wiccan- join Amber and Jet, read through and when you're ready, ask for a vouch for the author and one for Morg. (You'll have to contact her for the information you'll need)

If you're willing to really do the leg work- to really find out if you've been fed a line or if the author or Morg is telling the truth- then you shouldn't be afraid of what you'll find out. If you're not willing- if this is just an ego trip, and you don't care about the truth- only what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, then I don't expect you'll do it.

All this "lineage" and "initiation" crap leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, I can understand the need for most of it, but after a while it's just a bunch of ego stroking and frillery that just isn't needed.  

[Esiris]

Xaolu

All this "lineage" and "initiation" crap leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, I can understand the need for most of it, but after a while it's just a bunch of ego stroking and frillery that just isn't needed.

When I first started- I could understand that. For me it had to do with how people were explaining it though. Being Wiccan doesn't mean you're perfect- so there are Wiccans who are jerks and stroke their egos at the expense of seekers.

But if the Seeker puts aside their ego and looks at what is being said- then it really doesn't come across as ego stroking at all. None of the Wiccans are saying that being initiated into Wicca is the only fulfilling path. None of the Wiccans I have met have been anything but curious and respectful about the other religions I follow.

Because of what Wicca is- it's a world apart from the things that call themselves Wicca that aren't. Driving around a race track at two hundred miles an hour isn't the same as taking a country drive on a Saturday afternoon with the top down on your way to a picnic. They're both fun, rewarding and enjoyable. But that doesn't mean that I'm a Nascar Driver just because I have a drivers licence. If someone says that getting their drivers licence means your a Nascar driver- you'd probably say "no it doesn't" or you might just roll your eyes. People from Nascar on the other hand could get sued if some idiot claiming to be a Nascar driver did something stupid. Wiccans take an oath- and keeping that oath is what they're doing when they explain what Wicca is and why what other people do isn't Wicca.

That isn't stroking the ego- that's keeping their word. I don't think you'd expect them to be liars just because someone else wants to stroke their ego by claiming to be something they aren't- would you?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kagaya Ookami

@ Esiris: Yes, she was Initiated in 1986, yes, Gerald Gardner died in 1964, but his teaching are very much alive yes? The point that I am trying to make is that she is following his teachings from others. If they have it wrong, which you all are clearly saying, then apparently, the man that you hold in such high regard is wrong as well.

She is not following the teachings of Gardner. If people told her she was, they lied to her.

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@Sanguina: I wasn't saying anything about cesoring free speech, merely that if anyone has a problem with what I put in my signature, then they have the same free will that made them look at it, to merely avert their eyes. You had said that I had expressed a lack of concern, I hadn't done anything of the sort, I had merely stated that if the person(s), didn't like what they saw, that they didn't have to look at it, as is their free will.

Of course you showed a lack of concern. You absolutely didn't care that people were offended. You do not care that you offend others and you do not want to deal with the fallout when you do. Take some responsibility for what you say.

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As far as me being wrong, I've talked to wiccan's in san diego, both me and my fiancee have, and they have told me the exact same thing as what was in Ashleen O'Gaea's book, Self Initiation into Wicca is valid up to the First Initiation because it requires just as much of a comittment as a First Initiation into a Coven.

Forgive me if I don't believe you at all. You have not had access to Wicca. You seem to think O'Gaea is Wiccan! If you think thus, how can you know whether these people were Wiccan or not? Did you obtain vouches for them? Commitment is not the point here. READ THE STICKY, and attempt to understand it.

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This came from a priest and a priestess in a lineaged coven, I'm sorry that I cannot give your their names or the name of their coven, but I haven't had the opportunity to ask them nor have they expressed the need or want of me to give that information.

What tradition were they?

Quote:

So you see my dilema, I have a few people on here telling me that it is wrong, and yet I have lineaged coven members telling me the complete and utter opposite of what you are telling me. In my shoes, who would you believe?

You don't know their lineage. You don't know their names or the names of their coven.... did you obtain proper vouches?  

[Kagaya Ookami]

See, this is where I have you, you say that I don't know that they are lineaged, or even wiccan, which yes, I do, they were close family friends, that is how I talked with them, but upon moving out of california because of financial issues, I lost contact with them because my phone got disconnected because I couldn't pay the bill. The reason why I am not disclosing the name of the coven or their names is simple for the fact that I cannot ask their permissions to do so. It is disrespectful to do so.

About a lack of concern that I showed, no, I didn't, I took responsibility for what I put in MY signature, keyword, MY signature, I can post whatever I want in it, people have the right to look or avert their eyes. If they are offended, then they can either choose to say something or to avert their eyes, either way, unless an admin of gaia or someone else with just as much authority tells me that I have to change it, it's going to stay that way. If you see an add for cigarettes and your a non-smoker, are you going to continue to look at it or are you just going to turn and look in a different direction? I mean come on, it's common sense, although, apparently, if it was so common, I wouldn't have to be spelling it out for people.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kagaya Ookami

See, this is where I have you, you say that I don't know that they are lineaged, or even wiccan, which yes, I do, they were close family friends, that is how I talked with them, but upon moving out of california because of financial issues, I lost contact with them because my phone got disconnected because I couldn't pay the bill. The reason why I am not disclosing the name of the coven or their names is simple for the fact that I cannot ask their permissions to do so. It is disrespectful to do so.

What. Tradition. Are. They?
It's nice that they were close family friends. Did you obtain a vouch for their coven?
Additionally, you don't need to say "lineaged, or even Wiccan". If you are Wiccan, you are lineaged, and vice versa. One implies the other.

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About a lack of concern that I showed, no, I didn't, I took responsibility for what I put in MY signature, keyword, MY signature, I can post whatever I want in it, people have the right to look or avert their eyes. If they are offended, then they can either choose to say something or to avert their eyes, either way, unless an admin of gaia or someone else with just as much authority tells me that I have to change it, it's going to stay that way. If you see an add for cigarettes and your a non-smoker, are you going to continue to look at it or are you just going to turn and look in a different direction? I mean come on, it's common sense, although, apparently, if it was so common, I wouldn't have to be spelling it out for people.

I don't think you actually understand what "offending people" means. Or that people have the right to react to what you say. I've told you, you can say what you like. but you have to take responsibility for what you say. You can leave it there if you like, so long as you understand that other people are going to object, there are places where you will not be welcome, and, now that you know you are not a Wiccan, you are lying.

There are not ads for cigarettes in most countries anymore, and I don't understand why a non-smoker would be offended by one anyway. You offended people, and you didn't care.

Why are you even still here?  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

See, this is where I have you, you say that I don't know that they are lineaged, or even wiccan, which yes, I do, they were close family friends, that is how I talked with them, but upon moving out of california because of financial issues, I lost contact with them because my phone got disconnected because I couldn't pay the bill. The reason why I am not disclosing the name of the coven or their names is simple for the fact that I cannot ask their permissions to do so. It is disrespectful to do so.

When I went into the foster system- some of my father's friends said they were Wiccan. They weren't.

It's possible to be close family friends and to still be mistaken. They're human after all- and they can be fed the same bad information that you and I were.

You don't need to disclose any personal information to tell us what tradition they were a part of- why haven't you answered that?

Quote:

If you see an add for cigarettes and your a non-smoker, are you going to continue to look at it or are you just going to turn and look in a different direction? I mean come on, it's common sense, although, apparently, if it was so common, I wouldn't have to be spelling it out for people.

This isn't a good analogy. As a non-smoker, I'm not sworn on my word to prevent people from smoking. The real Wiccans take oaths as part of the religion and part of that is defending Wicca.  

[Xaolu]

Esiris

Xaolu

All this "lineage" and "initiation" crap leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I mean, I can understand the need for most of it, but after a while it's just a bunch of ego stroking and frillery that just isn't needed.

When I first started- I could understand that. For me it had to do with how people were explaining it though. Being Wiccan doesn't mean you're perfect- so there are Wiccans who are jerks and stroke their egos at the expense of seekers.

But if the Seeker puts aside their ego and looks at what is being said- then it really doesn't come across as ego stroking at all. None of the Wiccans are saying that being initiated into Wicca is the only fulfilling path. None of the Wiccans I have met have been anything but curious and respectful about the other religions I follow.

Because of what Wicca is- it's a world apart from the things that call themselves Wicca that aren't. Driving around a race track at two hundred miles an hour isn't the same as taking a country drive on a Saturday afternoon with the top down on your way to a picnic. They're both fun, rewarding and enjoyable. But that doesn't mean that I'm a Nascar Driver just because I have a drivers licence. If someone says that getting their drivers licence means your a Nascar driver- you'd probably say "no it doesn't" or you might just roll your eyes. People from Nascar on the other hand could get sued if some idiot claiming to be a Nascar driver did something stupid. Wiccans take an oath- and keeping that oath is what they're doing when they explain what Wicca is and why what other people do isn't Wicca.

That isn't stroking the ego- that's keeping their word. I don't think you'd expect them to be liars just because someone else wants to stroke their ego by claiming to be something they aren't- would you?

Honestly, that isn't what I said at all. I was just commenting on the whole system in general. Of course I wouldn't want them to lie to me, then they'd be just like all the other charlatans out there. I just don't want to be jerked around. From the people I've encountered, I'd say about a good 85% percent of them have been full of crap and were teaching the others the same BS that they spouted off to me. The true legit people I have meet; however, have been rude and rather exclusive. I understand the exclusivity part, but theres no reason to act like someone is less than you just because you've been initiated and the such. that's what I'm talking about. It's not a special club with member badges and secret hand shakes ( I'm just assuming, I don't really know what goes on at these things.); and a lot of people don't realize that you're not cooler just because you're part of a mystery religion. You are not special.  

[Morgandria]

Xaolu

From the people I've encountered, I'd say about a good 85% percent of them have been full of crap and were teaching the others the same BS that they spouted off to me. The true legit people I have meet; however, have been rude and rather exclusive. I understand the exclusivity part, but theres no reason to act like someone is less than you just because you've been initiated and the such.

If you've been meeting rude, exclusive people, blame it on their personality, not their religion. You're absolutely right that there's no reason for rudeness - when I encountered it, I walked away from those covens.

Some people have shitty attitudes. Wiccans are people. Therefore, you might indeed meet Wiccans with shitty attitudes. Nothing says you have to stick around those people. Wiccan covens are autonomous - you're gonna find them in all personalities and compositions. What works for one doesn't for another. It's not particularily fair of you to judge them all by a few individuals.

Also:
Part of what is "proper personhood", ie. the characteristics that make a person a suitable candidate for coven membership, is humility. Sometimes a coven feels a person out by asking them to leave a conversation, or holding initiate-only meetings - they want to see how you'll react to such things. People who get huffy or offended by such requests, or hurt, are probably not good candidates for Wicca - even after initiation you encounter information or things you can't access until a certain elevation. If it upsets you or makes you feel alienated or marginalized, Wicca isn't a good path for you.