Christians

[Morgandria]

Kagaya Ookami

Ah, see, that's the thing, I never once said that i treated any christian with disrespect, they themselves (the ones that i've talked to) have treated me with disrespect. I kept a level head about it and explained things to them so that they could stop making generalizations about me. I've never bashed a christian. What i've said here cannot be misconstrued as 'bashing' because it is what I've experienced with the christians that i've had the pleasure or displeasure of knowing. I don't treat christians all the same way, the ones that i meet walking past and decide to talk to me, i'm kind to unless they give me reason not to be, but then that is their decision, if they give me reason not to like them, then i wont talk to them.

Also: What i put in my signature is my business. I'm sorry, but if it offends anyone, then don't look at it, but that is a title that I am proud to claim, and it is my right to claim it if I see fit. If you don't like it, then I'm sorry, but I will not change it.

Proud to claim a title you haven't earned, at the expense of those who have. I see. Well, that's your perogative.

I begin to understand why perhaps you get disrespect from others.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

And i begin to see why people are so guarded around people in this guild, because you are always trying to tell them what they have to think and how they have to think it as well as judging them. You are just as bad as most of the christians that i've talked to. You think that just because somone doesn't think the way that you do that they are less than you and that they are wrong and have to see the way that you do. I'm sorry for joining your guild. I'll be better off elsewhere. goodbye.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kagaya Ookami

And i begin to see why people are so guarded around people in this guild, because you are always trying to tell them what they have to think and how they have to think it as well as judging them.

You are misappropriating a title you haven't earned. We're not telling you how to think. We're telling you how we react to your actions. If you have an issue with that, you should modify your actions.

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You are just as bad as most of the christians that i've talked to.

Your religious bigotry is noted. You're as bad as those Christians you have talked to. rolleyes

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You think that just because somone doesn't think the way that you do that they are less than you and that they are wrong and have to see the way that you do.

Where the hell did you get that? Seriously. In no way did she say that. You're claiming a title - proudly, I might add - that you have not earned. I can understand a person who HAS worked hard to earn that getting annoyed! If anything makes you "less" of a person, it's your misappropriation and your pride in such an act knowing what the word means and that you have no right to it. You expect respect from others for these actions? why?

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I'm sorry for joining your guild. I'll be better off elsewhere. goodbye.

Just out of interest, having read the sticky, why did you even join, knowing how people would react? Did you think it would be left alone? You have the right to speak as you will. But other people have that right, too. One thing you have to remember is that people have the right to react to what you say. If you want the right to speak freely, you must be ready to accept reactions to what you say.

Your reaction here is very immature, and frankly illustrates what sort of person you are. You have misappropriated a title. This was pointed out to you. You asked the individual offended not to read it if it was a problem for her and she responded as any person with an actual right to that title would respond. You then accuse us all of being Thought Police and flounce off. Did you join just so you could stick your nose in the air and leave again? I'm confused.  

[rmcdra]

Besides if you are just looking at the US alone, those professing Christianity only make up about 12.6% of Christians world wide. I think it would be a safe bet to say this percentage gets smaller when you examine individual states and counties.

This doesn't mean that one's experiences are invalid, just that one is dealing with an extremely small sample and the experiences of this small sample may not be indicative of how the entire group acts.  

[ncsweet]

Most of the Christians I've dealt with lately have been absolutely wonderful. To be sure they aren't aware of my religious preferences, but they've been nothing but kind and generous in trying to help us. Without doing what some groups do - and get all preachy with us.  

[pompoennetje]

ncsweet

Most of the Christians I've dealt with lately have been absolutely wonderful. To be sure they aren't aware of my religious preferences, but they've been nothing but kind and generous in trying to help us. Without doing what some groups do - and get all preachy with us.

I agree with this.

Normally I wasn't fond with christians either.
But the brother of my boyfriend turned Christian this year. It has really made him a better person. Sure we have conversations about this believe in God, But that's pure because I'm curious about it, and I had many questions about it. But he's really open, and sure he tells me that I go to hell if I don't believe in God and Jesus and all that. But that's his opinion, he believes in it. Not me. I just respect him, and it doesn't bother me at all.  

[Esiris]

I've met Christians who are sweet as pie, like my Room mate. I've met Christians who are rude.

I've met pagans who are sweet- like my other room mates. I've met pagans who were rude. I think it's rude to make it about what religion someone is- rather than who they are as people.  

[kasai_angel]

The majority of my friends are christian, and they know i am pagan. I even have a semi-hardcore christian friend(one 'saved' or 'born again' christian) who doesn't mind me being pagan. I have a very open mind on religion and agree with Esiris; Judge on who they are.

I have met some rude pagans before(sabat celebrations) and had bad experiences. I even sang an Irish hymn(one that did not say god, jesus or any of the like. it was actually very non-denominational) And got attitude from someone at a bardic circle because it was a 'hymn'; And wasn't written by a pagan artist. (this was only one person though, everyone else thought it was very touching and lovely. ^^)  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Morgandria and Sanguina Cruenta, you are both wrong. I decided to quit the guild because you two just don't seem to understand anyone. You always pick apart what people are saying to attack certain parts that you don't agree with and don't try and see the whole statement for what it is. And about misappropriating a title that i haven't earned....well, see, that is where you are wrong. Me and my fiancee have initiated each other to the first degree, and if you don't think it is possible, look in family wicca by Ashleen O'Gaea. She is one of the wiccans that followed Gerald Gardener and she put it in her book that Self-Initiations are completely valid up to the first initiations and that most, if not all wiccans and covens notice it as being valid. So no, I haven't misappropriated any title. I quit because of your attacks, not because i wanted to join and then stick my nose in the air, I joined because i thought that this was a good guild where everyone was understanding, but it seems that people just want to attack others when they don't like what they see or read. I just don't see why you can't accept that you cannot control what someone is doing. Instead, you try to control them by telling them that they cannot use a word, especially when that person has earned it, they just haven't had the need to tell anyone why they've earned it before. You seem very intollerant Sanguina. Morgandria, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but as you can see in my post, I have earned that title, and I am happy to claim it. If you still do not understand, then I'm sorry, but, according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, I have earned it.
Blessed Be  

[Morgandria]

Kagaya Ookami

Morgandria and Sanguina Cruenta, you are both wrong. I decided to quit the guild because you two just don't seem to understand anyone. You always pick apart what people are saying to attack certain parts that you don't agree with and don't try and see the whole statement for what it is. And about misappropriating a title that i haven't earned....well, see, that is where you are wrong. Me and my fiancee have initiated each other to the first degree, and if you don't think it is possible, look in family wicca by Ashleen O'Gaea. She is one of the wiccans that followed Gerald Gardener and she put it in her book that Self-Initiations are completely valid up to the first initiations and that most, if not all wiccans and covens notice it as being valid. So no, I haven't misappropriated any title. I quit because of your attacks, not because i wanted to join and then stick my nose in the air, I joined because i thought that this was a good guild where everyone was understanding, but it seems that people just want to attack others when they don't like what they see or read. I just don't see why you can't accept that you cannot control what someone is doing. Instead, you try to control them by telling them that they cannot use a word, especially when that person has earned it, they just haven't had the need to tell anyone why they've earned it before. You seem very intollerant Sanguina. Morgandria, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but as you can see in my post, I have earned that title, and I am happy to claim it. If you still do not understand, then I'm sorry, but, according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, I have earned it.

1) Ashleen O'Gaia holds no legitimate initiations into a lineaged tradition of Wicca. Can you show me where she was an initiate of British Traditional Wicca, or show me a vouch for her linrage? What I see online is someone who made their own tradition up out of eclectic neopagan witchcraft. Which is fine. It just doesn't make her Wiccan, or an authority on the subject.

I am curious as to where Ms. O'Gaia cites Gardner as her source for self-initiation being a valid entry into the Wica.

You don't seem to understand yet, that what you call Wicca, isn't. It's not found in anything available to the public.

2) Simply because you feel you've earned a title, doesn't mean you actually have. Doubtless you disagree with me, but it's mutual.

I'm sure whatever you and your significant other did is valid in some way - I don't dispute that. You may genuinely feel called to serve the Gods, and act as their priesthood. However, on a factual basis self-initiation does not meet the qualifications for membership of the Wica. By the very definition of the word, initiation is impossible to bestow on one's self.

And the only people who say self-initiation is possible, and valid are those who are not of the Wica - those who are outside the Wiccan faith.

Why should people who are outside the Wica, have the right to demand or make changes to Wicca for their own desires?

I don't say this to be rude or exclusionary. It's reality. My sister coven, in Michigan, started out many years ago as an eclectic "Wiccan" coven. And once they met our high priestess, they realized that nothing they did was Wicca, and they started over, completely. And now they are properly Wiccan.

It is possible to admit that one is wrong. There's no shame in it. There is shame in being willfully ignorant, and being hostile to truth, no matter how inconvenient.

3) Personally, my coven will give you the same reaction I do, to self-initiation. That's nice that the experience had meaning for you, but it doesn't and can't make you a Wiccan initiate. You can try to show them that you have the knowledge and experience one of our initiates has...but I'm willing to bet there's almost zero chance you know how to properly perform the rites of the Wica. You will get the benefit of the doubt for your claim, right up until the point you demonstrate absolutely that you've no idea what you're doing.

Respect is -earned-. You giving yourself a title, will not give you my respect. Initiates are held fast together by bonds greater than you can imagine. And you can't insert yourself amongst them, or forge those bonds alone.

MOST covens that I know of, when you tell them you self-initiated, will still ask you to start over as a Seeker. You will be lucky if they even consider you worthy of membership, since it's not a part of proper personhood to claim titles you haven't earned, and to be arrogant and rude about how you feel 'proud' to have stolen them.

Do whatever you want. It's your life. May you get what you deserve.  

[Esiris]

Kagaya Ookami

Morgandria and Sanguina Cruenta, you are both wrong. I decided to quit the guild because you two just don't seem to understand anyone. You always pick apart what people are saying to attack certain parts that you don't agree with and don't try and see the whole statement for what it is. And about misappropriating a title that i haven't earned....well, see, that is where you are wrong. Me and my fiancee have initiated each other to the first degree, and if you don't think it is possible, look in family wicca by Ashleen O'Gaea. She is one of the wiccans that followed Gerald Gardener and she put it in her book that Self-Initiations are completely valid up to the first initiations and that most, if not all wiccans and covens notice it as being valid. So no, I haven't misappropriated any title. I quit because of your attacks, not because i wanted to join and then stick my nose in the air, I joined because i thought that this was a good guild where everyone was understanding, but it seems that people just want to attack others when they don't like what they see or read. I just don't see why you can't accept that you cannot control what someone is doing. Instead, you try to control them by telling them that they cannot use a word, especially when that person has earned it, they just haven't had the need to tell anyone why they've earned it before. You seem very intollerant Sanguina. Morgandria, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but as you can see in my post, I have earned that title, and I am happy to claim it. If you still do not understand, then I'm sorry, but, according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, I have earned it.
Blessed Be

I'm in the same position you are- I haven't been initiated into a coven. I'm currently seeking under a Gard Coven and I've learned a lot of what I thought was Wicca wasn't.

It's been a rough ride- but it was easier once I put aside what I thought I knew so I can learn from people who have dedicated decades to walking their path.  

[IEditYourWorld]

I have to admit that I'm a Christian outsider who joined the guild to learn a little bit about people of a different belief. I felt that I could learn more about Wicca from people who practice the religion than random Googling. Though Google is a pretty good source for things, I've always thought that you get better information from people who actually do something.

I can see how you'd be upset by what people have said. I am deeply sorry to hear that you have been facing prejudice by a religious group that claims to be forgiving. Granted, I've met some great Christians and some Christians that have their heads buried into their bibles so far that they can't see beyond the pages. Then again I've met people from several different backgrounds who can go either way. I actually used to work with a few girls who practiced Wicca (we all worked together at White Castle) at one point and I liked working with them over most of my other coworkers because they seemed like they had a brain in their heads. I had been invited to one of their coven meetings, and though I was curious I politely declined because I felt that I would be disrespecting their beliefs as an outsider. In hindsight I should have gone just to learn new things, but that's why I'm here now. That and I film weddings now and I'm looking to learn about new types of weddings.

I hope that you can surround yourself with people who will give you the respect that you deserve. Though it's never fun to be treated like less than a person, it does at least teach you who not to be around.

May you find comfort.
IEditYourWorld  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

Kagaya Ookami

Morgandria and Sanguina Cruenta, you are both wrong.

On what basis?

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I decided to quit the guild because you two just don't seem to understand anyone. You always pick apart what people are saying to attack certain parts that you don't agree with and don't try and see the whole statement for what it is.

People often say things without thinking through their implications. Sure, often people don't mean to infer something particular - in that case, clarification is your friend. So, clarify. Better we bring it up and ask the question and you clarify than we do not ask, and think the worse of you for it, surely?

I realise that breaking posts apart in this way can come across as critical and as "picking apart". It's simply how I process posts and replies. I find it very difficult when people reply to a post as a whole without making note of what aspects of the post they're replying to for each point. I also find it much easier to properly reply in this way. I do not intend to come across as blunt or aggressive in my doing so.

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And about misappropriating a title that i haven't earned....well, see, that is where you are wrong. Me and my fiancee have initiated each other to the first degree, and if you don't think it is possible, look in family wicca by Ashleen O'Gaea.

What tradition is O'Gaea an initiate of?
How can you initiate yourself into a religion for which so much is secret? For example... if you have gained initiation, in any way, into Wicca, you would know the names of the God and Goddess of Wicca as the giving of their names to the initiate is an aspect of initiation.
See... Initiations are performed in a very specific way. It's great that you and your fiancee have participated in a ritual that's rewarding for you both, but a Wiccan initiation, afaik, needs more than just two people. That initation is performed by someone of second degree or higher, so it's not possible for a first degree initiate to initiate you into Wicca.

If your initiation differs from that of Wicca, you may be initiated into a Neo-Pagan Witchcult, but you're not initiated into Wicca. Wicca is a very specific religion, one not everyone even wants to be a part of.

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She is one of the wiccans that followed Gerald Gardener and she put it in her book that Self-Initiations are completely valid up to the first initiations and that most, if not all wiccans and covens notice it as being valid.

Valid, perhaps. Wiccan, no.

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I quit because of your attacks, not because i wanted to join and then stick my nose in the air, I joined because i thought that this was a good guild where everyone was understanding, but it seems that people just want to attack others when they don't like what they see or read.

People are understanding here. When your signature was first seen you were directed to the appropriate stickies and sources in the hope you'd read and acknowledge them in the spirit in which they were written. You expressed a lack of any care for the emotions and sensibilities of actual Wiccans in this guild for whom you were showing disrespect. We reacted accordingly. If this was an attack, okay, but you can't simply dismiss your own behaviour by this claim. If you want others to be understanding you must be understanding also, and you were not.

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I just don't see why you can't accept that you cannot control what someone is doing. Instead, you try to control them by telling them that they cannot use a word, especially when that person has earned it, they just haven't had the need to tell anyone why they've earned it before.

Alright, let's use an analogy here. If someone maintained they were a Wiccan but worshipped Satan, would you be annoyed? Would you want to correct them? If someone said they didn't believe in Jesus and worshipped a purple elephant god, would you tell them they weren't Christian though they insisted it was so? You're misapplying a name, here. What is incorrect will be corrected. Particularly in Neo-Paganism where false information is so plentiful.

I would rather be corrected when I was wrong than allowed to wallow in my own ignorance.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

The basis that i'm saying you are wrong is that you are telling me that I am doing something wrong when it states, plain as day in a book that was published by a follower of Gerald Gardener, that self-initiation is just as valid to a coven as initiation done in the coven up to a first initiation because it may be less formal, but requires just as much commitment. I don't have the book with me since I am not at home at the moment, so i'm sorry, but i can't tell you what tradition she is an initiate of, but it states quite clearly in Family Wicca by: Ashleen O'Gaea that she is a follower of Gerald Gardener. And about what I put in my signature, I've already explained that, whatever I put in my signature is between me and gaiaonline.com. I didn't express a lack of care, merely that it is my signature and due to the fact that gaiaonline says what i can and cannot put in it, I can put what i want as long as the site administrators are ok with it, if someone in a guild doesn't like what they read, then they can choose not to look at it. It doesn't show a lack of care or understanding. I understand completely, you want to censor a word, I want to use that word, and I will use that word because according to a follower of Gerald Gardener, whom you hold in such high regard, I've earned it. About your analogy, sure, I would be annoyed with people who were doing those things, but if they feel that is right, then let them be. Do you really think that if somone believes strongly about what they believe in, that they will just up and change because someone comes up and says "oh, hey, that isn't right, your believing in something that isn't real, you need to stop doing this." no, they will still believe that way unless someone provides very definite proof that they are wrong.

Morgandria:
Seeing as how you've even spelled Ashleen O'Gaea's name wrong, I very highly doubt that you've even researched her or the book that i mentioned. If you had, you wouldn't have had to ask me where she 'cites Gardener as her source for self-initiation'. If nothing wicca is found to the public, then how do you explain covens here in the united states. if nothing wicca is available to the public, then the only valid covens are in europe, the points that you try to make undermine you on every turn. I'm sorry, but I think I'll go with a book that clearly shows me what is right with proof than you trying to spout off nonsense to me while you are undermining yourself.  

[CursedExile]

Christians, the most often born again and other heavy bible-thumpers are adamantly against any forms of paganism for the soul fact that the bible states that magick and paganism are abhorrent in the eyes of God. My mother once had a woman who was blind to reason and very Christian to boot, state that Unicorns and all imagery depicting them was symbolic of Satan for God was against magick. However my mother, who is Wiccan, found a passage in the bible that compared the likeness of the Unicorn to Jesus Christ and continued to reinforce their image of purity. The woman was left speechless.

I am open minded and know very well not all Christians are as condescending and closed minded as this woman was. However there are many who are and simply aren't educated on what paganism is about. I can see why they are stereotyped, even I am guarded and careful of what I say to a Christian when faced with the topic of religion.