Christians

[Brass Bell Doll]

surukio

depends on the are in the US you are residing, i don't get that up here in Idy, but i had it all the time back south in NC, if you live in the "bible belt" it depends on if they are converting because they think it will earn them brownie points, or if the genuinely believe what they say, i've been told even though i was cosidered a christiant [pago-christian] an cause i practice celtic beliefs along side thing like witch craft, root work and voudou, tha ti'm going to hell even if i believe the ible [which is easily countered by the whole pointing out that certain word were wrongly translated to read "witch craft" when it called only 3 specific criteria, poisoning, necromancy and certain forms of divination ONLY, but most won't look into how improperly translated those areas of the bible are, just like it reads Elohim[which is a strictly feminine term for God, meaning mother or Goddess]

I feel there are three things to consider in this post, and if I make a mistake, please forgive me- I had a very difficult time reading your post.

The first thing to consider is the position that these statistics only address specific regions. My initial point, which I feel still stands, is that any given population in the United States is made up of 3/4 Christians and 1/4 of something else- be it Muslim, Jew, or some kind of pagan or atheist. While how people approach someone about conversion may differ based on local social expectations, I feel the issue remains- even in the Bible Belt, complete strangers are not going to interrogate and demand conversion from someone buying milk at the grocery store. This is to illustrate the point that hyperbole is unreasonable and leads to degrading others.

I would be interested in why you feel there is any motivation (termed in the post as "brownie points") for them converting beyond faith in it's benefits.

The second point to consider is that while witchcraft is commonly translated from two words in Hebrew and one in Greek, (none of which deal with necromancy) there are a number of other sins practiced in common forms of witchcraft that give rise to their claim. One of these which is translated as "witchcraft" includes praying to other gods, including the gods of the Celts and the Loa. There is also a metaphorical value for the concept of a poisoner- which would be someone who poisons the community with "false teachings"- which would include root work, vodun, and Celtic traditions based on statements made in the Bible.

The last position I would comment upon is the interpretation of the word Eloheim. Ancient Hebrew does not suggest it is a "strictly feminine term for God". Etymologically, El is a masculine value- but beyond that, Eloheim is used as a singular personal noun and as a qualifier for both masculine and feminine gods of other religions' deities.  

[surukio]

Brass Bell Doll

surukio

depends on the are in the US you are residing, i don't get that up here in Idy, but i had it all the time back south in NC, if you live in the "bible belt" it depends on if they are converting because they think it will earn them brownie points, or if the genuinely believe what they say, i've been told even though i was cosidered a christiant [pago-christian] an cause i practice celtic beliefs along side thing like witch craft, root work and voudou, tha ti'm going to hell even if i believe the ible [which is easily countered by the whole pointing out that certain word were wrongly translated to read "witch craft" when it called only 3 specific criteria, poisoning, necromancy and certain forms of divination ONLY, but most won't look into how improperly translated those areas of the bible are, just like it reads Elohim[which is a strictly feminine term for God, meaning mother or Goddess]

I feel there are three things to consider in this post, and if I make a mistake, please forgive me- I had a very difficult time reading your post.

The first thing to consider is the position that these statistics only address specific regions. My initial point, which I feel still stands, is that any given population in the United States is made up of 3/4 Christians and 1/4 of something else- be it Muslim, Jew, or some kind of pagan or atheist. While how people approach someone about conversion may differ based on local social expectations, I feel the issue remains- even in the Bible Belt, complete strangers are not going to interrogate and demand conversion from someone buying milk at the grocery store. This is to illustrate the point that hyperbole is unreasonable and leads to degrading others.

I would be interested in why you feel there is any motivation (termed in the post as "brownie points") for them converting beyond faith in it's benefits.

The second point to consider is that while witchcraft is commonly translated from two words in Hebrew and one in Greek, (none of which deal with necromancy) there are a number of other sins practiced in common forms of witchcraft that give rise to their claim. One of these which is translated as "witchcraft" includes praying to other gods, including the gods of the Celts and the Loa. There is also a metaphorical value for the concept of a poisoner- which would be someone who poisons the community with "false teachings"- which would include root work, vodun, and Celtic traditions based on statements made in the Bible.

Quote:

The last position I would comment upon is the interpretation of the word Eloheim. Ancient Hebrew does not suggest it is a "strictly feminine term for God". Etymologically, El is a masculine value- but beyond that, Eloheim is used as a singular personal noun and as a qualifier for both masculine and feminine gods of other religions' deities.

El is masculine meaning God, Elohim how ever is feminine and also used to describe the Holy spirit, but the translations post hebrew/greek/ aramaic make it masuline [hebrew is a gender based language not of the same roots but with similar gender specifications.


as for the "brownie point" there are some atleast where i lived [and i hate saying it this way] who though trying to talk to people and convert them better their chances of getting into heaven, even if they otherwise didn't follow bible in most things[that is they do things that are very un-christian otherwise and break their own religious morals and laws].

and yes i HAVE been interogated in the gorcerie store about my beliefs [no lie here] i just don't go into talkin gmuch after abit and i try to be as nice as possible and leave while smiling [even when i don't want to]

also i apologize if my typing or grammer is off, its easier to speak what i'm trying to say and explain it, then it is typing

 

[Brass Bell Doll]

surukio

El is masculine meaning God, Elohim how ever is feminine and also used to describe the Holy spirit, but the translations post hebrew/greek/ aramaic make it masuline [hebrew is a gender based language not of the same roots but with similar gender specifications.

The only place I have ever heard it spoken of as a feminine is in books by the Farrars, and I feel that neither Janet nor Stewart did much to support their conclusions.

El was a formal name, Elohiem translates better as deity in modern English. It is used over 2600 times in the Bible, exclusively in the Old Testament. I feel the claim that this is used to address the Holy Spirit isn't well reasoned because the Holy Spirit as such is mentioned exclusively in the New Testament- which was written in Greek, not Hebrew.

While it could be used to describe The Holy Spirit because it qualifies something as divine, it isn't used that way in the Bible. I think that while later concepts are identified with The Holy Spirit, those concepts had their own words that were directly associated with them.

I feel that confusing the biconsonantal root present in Eloheim for a strictly feminine name is an error. By combining El with the Ugaritic root 'lhm, we have something that translates into common English as pantheon, or the literal translation of El's Family based on the roots alone.

I do not think we can substitute the history of how a term came to be for what it means though which is why I note that the word Eloheim is found behind both male and female deities and even in reference to angels in the Bible, noting that it is not a goddess's name, but a word that signals divinity.

surukio

as for the "brownie point" there are some atleast where i lived [and i hate saying it this way] who though trying to talk to people and convert them better their chances of getting into heaven, even if they otherwise didn't follow bible in most things[that is they do things that are very un-christian otherwise and break their own religious morals and laws].

I feel this is likely a misinterpretation of something they said in passing, because I do not know of any Christians or any religious position that states that the act of converting others gets them into Heaven. Instead it is by Grace.

surukio

and yes i HAVE been interogated in the gorcerie store about my beliefs [no lie here] i just don't go into talkin gmuch after abit and i try to be as nice as possible and leave while smiling [even when i don't want to]

While it may have happened in passing, it is not the kind of experience that takes place every moment- which was my point. If the majority of Christians were bent on converting pagans, our rights under the First Amendment would have been subverted and you and I would not be having this conversation as you would not be able to function beyond defending yourself from harassment- which is why I was pointing out the hyperbole in the first post.

To add: Please understand I do not think people are never harassed. I feel the issue isn't that there aren't annoying people, but that most people aren't that way- certainly most Christians aren't that aggressive, if they were, we wouldn't be able to function in society.

surukio

also i apologize if my typing or grammer is off, its easier to speak what i'm trying to say and explain it, then it is typing

I would really find it helpful if you could do me the favor of taking a little time to correct your post before it is put in the thread. I have a very difficult time reading in general- it gets worse when grammar, spelling and punctuation conventions are ignored. It turns a difficult task into a most frustrating situation. I can't complain about the occasional slips here and there. I'm not perfect after all. But any extra effort you would put in would be greatly appreciated.  

[mechanical kitsy]

Sanguina Cruenta

xXx kitsy xXx

Too much attitude.
People were trying to help, show some gratitude.

D00d, that totally rhymes. You's a rapper!

...i was sleepy when i said that, didn't even notice.  

[Amara Verdandi]

Hello everyone. After a long absence I am back. I would appreciate this thread being locked, for I realized that I poorly worded what I was trying to say, and would like this matter to be over and done with.

I apologize to anyone who's feelings I may have hurt, and promise to be more careful with how I phrase things in the future.

Thank you.  

[mechanical kitsy]

Amara Verdandi

Hello everyone. After a long absence I am back. I would appreciate this thread being locked, for I realized that I poorly worded what I was trying to say, and would like this matter to be over and done with.

I apologize to anyone who's feelings I may have hurt, and promise to be more careful with how I phrase things in the future.

Thank you.

Well, I'm not going to lock it. The captain can if she wants. It's a learning thing.
My motto, is tolerance. Learn it. If people give you grief (and people will at one point or twenty), just smile and move on. Don't try to start conflict, don't try to end them. Don't engage in conflict. Discussion is different. Arguing is not discussion.
Saying every christian is bad or tries to convert people is like saying every pagan does the same. I know those who do, and I know those who don't. It's not about the religion, it's about the person and their own mind. It's a form of discrimination, to say that a group is a way. You may have offended many people. There may be christians in this guild, who could have been hurt by what you said, or now view pagans as ignorant idiots. You have to think about your actions.
Rethink your thoughts on the matter.  

[rmcdra]

don't worry. I wasn't offended. I feel that way from time to time about my brethren due to the culture I was raised in so I have to take a step back from time to time to re-adjust my perspective on it.  

[Amara Verdandi]

See what I mean? People assume I'm talking about every Christian out there, when I was merely talking about most of the Christians I met. As I said, I know there are polite Christians out there, I'm saying that many of the ones I've come across aren't like that.

Am I supposed to learn something from people assuming I'm saying that all Christians are the same? Or from people completely misreading my posts? Most people just took what they wanted from it, ignoring the disclaimer that said I know there are plenty of Christians out there who aren't like that.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Amara Verdandi

I'm saying that many of the ones I've come across aren't like that.

I feel this attitude is one of the ones I had initial problems with.

If you were to pull ten people off the street and line them up- Approximately eight of them would be Christian, and for your statement to be true and not a hyperbole, five of them would half to be harassing you.

I feel that when speaking of a group, using hyperbole to defame others who are innocent of the wrong that has frustrated you is hurtful.

Amara Verdandi

Am I supposed to learn something from people assuming I'm saying that all Christians are the same? Or from people completely misreading my posts? Most people just took what they wanted from it, ignoring the disclaimer that said I know there are plenty of Christians out there who aren't like that.

I feel there is a lot of learning to be had, yes.

Some of the lessons include providing the attention to other's positions that you would like provided to your own- for example, someone who took such care in reading my responses would not draw the conclusion that we think you are saying "All Christians" are bad.

Second, I feel there is an important lesson to be taught regarding prejudice. In studies out of New Jersey by Dr. Chu Kim-Prieto, it has been shown that when we stereotype one group, we are more likely to stereotype others. By stereotyping Christians, a psychological process is started that allows us to dehumanize others and I feel this is very harmful to ourselves and others.  

[Amara Verdandi]

I'm not talking about random people, or complete strangers. I'm talking about out of the ones I've come across. Hence narrowing the group down a quite a bit. I know if I randomly talked to a few strangers that the amount of which trying to convert others would decrease. It depends on where you live, and who you actually talk to. It also depends on where you talk to them. While some people will enforce their opinion on the internet freely, some of these same people are much less outspoken face to face.

Also, yes, it would seem that people assume I'm talking about all Christians.

"Saying every christian is bad or tries to convert people..."

There's no mistaking that the assumption that I'm saying "every Christian is the same" is being made.  

[Ritual at Dusk]

I agree that some christians can be very judgemental, but a lot aren't. People are people and everyone is judgemental, whether they think so or not. Part of the christian religion, whether it be directly taught or picked up from other christians is that pagans are evil and wicked and etc, but many religions think that. Pagans dont have a great reputation and we just have to get used to that and try to set good examples so people will begin to give us a chance.  

[Esiris]

Ritual at Dusk

I agree that some christians can be very judgemental, but a lot aren't. People are people and everyone is judgemental, whether they think so or not.

Reading the responses, I think there's something missing. I think people have a problem with unfair judgments, rather than judgments in general.

Quote:

Part of the christian religion, whether it be directly taught or picked up from other christians is that pagans are evil and wicked and etc, but many religions think that. Pagans dont have a great reputation and we just have to get used to that and try to set good examples so people will begin to give us a chance.

I'm not a fan of that compromise.
I'd rather others not be used as examples for me- when they're nothing like me.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Well, I can see where Amara Verdandi is coming from. Not unlike her, 99.9% of the christians that I've Met, emphasis on the ones that I've met, not to be misconstrued as her words where. I realize that this doesn't categorize all christians in the world or united states, so don't try to twist my words around, please, i've been through this conversations many many times before, they've all (The one's i've met) tried to blatantly convert me to their religion, most if not all of them, have been rude about it when i told them that I wasn't interrested and told me that if i didn't change my devil-worshiping ways, that i was going to burn in hell for the rest of eternity. A supervisor at one of my jobs actually tried to have me fired because he was a preacher in a church and he said that he didn't want a devil-worshiping, beast working with him, yes, he called me a devil-worshiping beast, and he also said quite a few other things that I actually laughed in his face about. The christians that i've met aren't friendly, by any means, unless you yourself is christian and then they get along with you fine. So yes, i can see where Amara is coming from and I myself understand what she was trying to say in her first post. I can also see how if you didn't have the same experiences as she did, that it can be twisted around, but, she does make some pretty good, completely valid, points on the subject. She wasn't trying to really say that all christians are like this, in fact, she was saying the opposite, she realized that not all christians are like this, just the great majority of the ones that she met, just like me, it doesn't help that I live in the bible-belt either it seems, in fact, i think it makes it worse. I don't know who said it on here, but i read it in someone's post that in the larger cities that this is less heard of. I agree. I used to live in san diego, i only knew a few christians there and they were by far, more understanding, hince why i said, 99.9%, i do know a few christians that were very understanding and actually sat down with me and listened to me and didn't argue or anything, we talked very civilized and they never once tried to convert me. As i said, not all christians are like this, just the great majority that i've met have been rude, mean, deflamatory, and really, hate mongers themselves because of the things that i've heard from them.

Sorry that this is long, but I was trying to get my point across so that everyone would be able to understand that this is coming from my personal experience, not a statistic of the world or anything.  

[Morgandria]

My best friend and her entirely family are fundamentalist Christians. I have always been made welcome by them, and they have treated me as their own for nearly 20 years. They have never given me one iota of grief about my religious leanings, nor barred me from speaking about them to their daughter or their grand-daughter.

Whose experience is more representative? You can't really say. They're individual, and incomparable, in many ways.

Experience is as experience does. Treating all Christians the same, when you have had experience with a comparatively small sector of their overall population, may not be the best approach. While I understand your frustrations, you will need to look past your own personal bias if you want a complete view of the subject.

Also:
Have you read the sticky about using the word "Wicca" on the forums here? I think you would benefit from doing so, just from looking at your signature.  

[Kagaya Ookami]

Ah, see, that's the thing, I never once said that i treated any christian with disrespect, they themselves (the ones that i've talked to) have treated me with disrespect. I kept a level head about it and explained things to them so that they could stop making generalizations about me. I've never bashed a christian. What i've said here cannot be misconstrued as 'bashing' because it is what I've experienced with the christians that i've had the pleasure or displeasure of knowing. I don't treat christians all the same way, the ones that i meet walking past and decide to talk to me, i'm kind to unless they give me reason not to be, but then that is their decision, if they give me reason not to like them, then i wont talk to them.

Also: What i put in my signature is my business. I'm sorry, but if it offends anyone, then don't look at it, but that is a title that I am proud to claim, and it is my right to claim it if I see fit. If you don't like it, then I'm sorry, but I will not change it.