N3bu
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- Posted: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:45:08 +0000
Kaltros
N3bu
Kaltros
N3bu
Also, I have to ask. What's the justification behind the claim that American's deserve said jobs more so then others? Where is this line drawn? Is it because they live in America? Or because those companies are american, or operate in America? Maybe because they service American citizens? What is the reason? Those are the only ones I can think of right now.
Each of those reasons has significant problems however because these days the world is incredibly globalised. Not all companies that operate in America are American owned. Not all American companies operate in America. Not all companies that sell to American people are from or based in America.
And if your going to say that American's deserve jobs on the basis that they are born American, I'm going to pre-repetitively give you the big '******** you'.
Each of those reasons has significant problems however because these days the world is incredibly globalised. Not all companies that operate in America are American owned. Not all American companies operate in America. Not all companies that sell to American people are from or based in America.
And if your going to say that American's deserve jobs on the basis that they are born American, I'm going to pre-repetitively give you the big '******** you'.
A country has a duty first to its citizens. If a country's citizens are struggling with unemployment, that country shouldn't encourage immigration, which just adds more people to an already struggling labor pool, increases welfare and infrastructure and other costs, and so on.
Not how labour works, it certainly isn't how you mitigate unemployment. Jobs are mobile for any number of reasons and are not owed to any person other then the most qualified for the job. In addition it has to be recognised that at any single time the labour pool does not match jobs available. There could be 100 jobs and 100 citizens and there will still be unemployment and job shortages at the same time.
Not all jobs are mobile. I have yet to see the local restaurant owners try to outsource the duties of the waitresses / cooks / etc, to phone banks in India.
And why do you think limiting immigration and thus additions to the labor pool would have no effect on local unemployment?
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Now, you might have a point if immigrants were flooding industries that already have too many workers. If were talking about Mexicans this isn't the case normally because few Americans seek the kind of low paying work intensive labour close to the border. If we're talking about first world immigration, then that immigration only happens when jobs are available since this kind of immigration has the tools to find out where there are job openings in their professional fields.
Mexicans aren't just close to the southern border. There seems to be a growing community as far north as Washington state. Possibly because Washington state, for some dopey reason, gives Driver's Licenses to illegal immigrants.
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Most American's are having problems, not because there are too many immigrants (which is a tired scape goat of an excuse that's been used for 100s of years), but instead because American consumers can no longer sustain the demand in which American jobs have relied upon, being a consumer economy.
Immigrants are one factor. You could say that labor is one sort of good for sale. More immigrants, past a certain number, tend to flood the labor market. How would you explain the BLS data showing a loss of around 2 million jobs for the native born, and a 2 million gain for the foreign born?
You're still arguing from a position of homogeneous labour. That is incorrect. Just because not all jobs are mobile doesn't mean all job are not mobile. The point was to demonstrate that the American economy is not a island, nor does it exist in a vacuum, something you also continue to ignore.
Unemployment hasn't been caused by a supply increase, in fact on a macro scale that's an incredibly naive argument to make. If we were talking about a singular store and there was 1 job available and 2 people applying, then the increase in supply from 1 would create unemployment of one. The ignorance of this argument however is that you cannot apply it to an economy that consists of more then one store and more than one industry. This is because labour is not homogeneous, and despite the title used in statistics labour does not exist in a "pool".
In it's most basic form, unemployment will occur because in a given industry there are more applicant's then there is demand for jobs. Your argument thus cannot work until you isolate increments to given industries to show the supply increase surpasses the given demand of that industry.
For example, you would be hilariously wrong if statistics showed most unemployment occurred in professional fields such as computer programming, or medicine, or law, or accounting. The context and nature of the labour markets is far more complex then a statement that says "2 million more immigrants have displaced 2 million more American workers" and to say otherwise shows your own ignorance and does a disservice to most of Economics.
Even then if you were to prove that it happens both in industries that millions of immigrants apply for and also millions of American were displaced from and from then on unable to reapply for a job you still are approaching it from the wrong angle. Immigrants would displace American workers because they're more productive, either by being cheaper or more effective at their job. There is no guarantee an employer would operate at a lower level of productivity when the recession restricts demands for whatever they sell. It might be easier to just not operate or hire replacement. If you were to disappear from America all of the immigrants, you can in no way be sure that it will provide a net increase in the employment rate of citizens, especially when the immigrants themselves are no longer paid consumers.
To finalise everything I've said into data I'm going to reference this page which is from the BLS, outputting the unemployment numbers and rates based on industry upto 2013. What you will notice is the unemployment rate is reasonably spread across all of those industries, in particular being harsh on construction (oh geez I wonder why?), something you wouldn't see if unemployment was being caused by unskilled immigration.
In addition and perhaps most damning evidence against the argument that immigration causes unemployment is perhaps the most simple of evidence. Here.
This is just the historical unemployment rate. The kicker, well if you look back far enough (a whole 5 years, I know everyone's memory is terrible but just try) you'll notice something amazing, the unemployment rate is below 7%. Even more amazingly it had stayed that way since 1993. Since 1989, US legal immigration has stayed stable at roughly 1 million new permanent residents per year, with a dip around '98, '99. So clearly, since legal immigration didn't cause this jump it must be illegal. Between 2000 and 2007 illegal immigration (by estimation) increased steadily (here) while unemployment barely budged. After 2007 illegal immigration decreased to 11 million (from 12) in 2009, the year in which unemployment jumped to 10%, in the opposite direction of illegal immigration.
So then what the ******** caused all this unemployment? It might have something to do with that darn recession, because until then nobody heard s**t of Immigrants stealing 'merican jobs. Know why? Because for the most part, the really important part, it doesn't happen.