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Hitler killed 6 million disarmed Jews. Many of them had guns at one time, but were required by increasingly infringing legislation and later confiscations to turn them in. The laws created in Nazi Germany were designed to disarm a portion of the population so that that population could be controlled and exterminated.

According to P. Morgan, Britain has no guns whatsoever, not the citizens, not the police, and absolute total gun ban. Despite this, 30-40 people are killed every year by gun violence. Apparently even a total gun ban doesn't stop gun violence. As to the total aggregate violence, the numbers are not impressive. The European Union considers Britain to be one of the most violent members. Oddly enough, Switzerland has guns all over the place but their violent crime and even gun fatalities are relatively low.

Back to Hitler, we have this situation where people want to know what would happen if the Jews were armed. To that I would answer - they were surrounded by armed jack booted thugs and told to disarm or die. I would surmise from various movies that some of them fled the country while they could and contributed to some form of rebellion, some groups more effective than others. Point is, the Jews allowed themselves to be disarmed because they were already considered a hated minority. They thought that by not offering violent resistance they could demonstrate their sense of reason and cool, level heads would prevail. Then they were executed by firing squads and those that weren't were sent to death camps.

The first rule of People Quoting Godwin: Don't.
Godwin never fought in any war. Godwin never wondered what it would be like to lose his own rights, or have to march to his own death. Godwin isn't a leader, he isn't a soldier, and he isn't a holocaust victim. Godwin is a worthless piece of s**t that intentionally pushes people away from History, because Godwin wants you to forget, when you should Never forget.

Two separate conquerors in Pre Industrial Japan called for a Sword Hunt. Immediately following these events, there was great slaughter, temples were burned to the ground, and villages were sacked. People died by the hundreds of thousands, possibly by the millions. Entire religions were wiped out. Did peace follow? No. Edo/Tokyo continued to burn periodically, but what did follow in both cases was Tyranny unrivaled even by Orwellian Standards. A Person's whole family could be put to death because one of their family members wandered 1 city block away from their restricted residential zone. Most of you people have no ******** clue how bad it can get. Most of you think 'it can't happen here!, not in MY country!' You are Delusional. Someone should write a book about people like that, and call it The Godwin Delusion.
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Can we at least keep this jackassery confined to a single thread? Thanks.
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Michael Noire
Oddly enough, Switzerland has guns all over the place but their violent crime and even gun fatalities are relatively low.
Not very oddly, the median income in Switzerland is the rough equivalent (after taxes) of $95,000 US, roughly three times ours. And they have a robust social "safety net," financed by all residents of Switzerland.

Quote:
Godwin never fought in any war. Godwin never wondered what it would be like to lose his own rights, or have to march to his own death.
Hitler did, it was called World War I. His side lost miserably. What's your point? Doesn't give him a moral high ground to stand on. He came to some overtly pathological conclusions about the experience.

Quote:
Two separate conquerors in Pre Industrial Japan called for a Sword Hunt. Immediately following these events, there was great slaughter, temples were burned to the ground, and villages were sacked. People died by the hundreds of thousands, possibly by the millions. Entire religions were wiped out. Did peace follow? No. Edo/Tokyo continued to burn periodically, but what did follow in both cases was Tyranny unrivaled even by Orwellian Standards. A Person's whole family could be put to death because one of their family members wandered 1 city block away from their restricted residential zone. Most of you people have no ******** clue how bad it can get. Most of you think 'it can't happen here!, not in MY country!' You are Delusional. Someone should write a book about people like that, and call it The Godwin Delusion.
My country isn't feudal ******** Japan. Japan had, by Nobunaga's rule as Shogun, been a feudally organized military dictatorship for four hundred years.
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My country isn't feudal ******** Japan. Japan had, by Nobunaga's rule as Shogun, been a feudally organized military dictatorship for four hundred years.

Oda Nobunaga was never Shogun. emotion_eyebrow
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Wendigo
My country isn't feudal ******** Japan. Japan had, by Nobunaga's rule as Shogun, been a feudally organized military dictatorship for four hundred years.

Oda Nobunaga was never Shogun. emotion_eyebrow


This is true. The second sword hunt was under a Shogun, but not the first. I seem to recall one of the Feudal lords seized power by use of a number of Dutch arquebuses to slaughter a bunch of men with banners and swords.
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Disa Uniflora
Wendigo
My country isn't feudal ******** Japan. Japan had, by Nobunaga's rule as Shogun, been a feudally organized military dictatorship for four hundred years.

Oda Nobunaga was never Shogun. emotion_eyebrow
My bad, Nobunaga's "rule of about of a third of Shikoku as daimyo, which some other guys disagreed he should have."

In spite of Disa's protests to the contrary, I am not editing in the word daimyo in place of guys, just because the other guys were also daimyo.
Amusingly enough you didn't even answer your own god-damn rhetorical question.

What would have happened had the Jews been armed? They still would have been slaughtered. The difference being they would of taken some Nazis with them and there probably wouldn't have been any left to free from camps by 1945.
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Wendigo
My country isn't feudal ******** Japan. Japan had, by Nobunaga's rule as Shogun, been a feudally organized military dictatorship for four hundred years.

Oda Nobunaga was never Shogun. emotion_eyebrow
My bad, Nobunaga's "rule of about of a third of Shikoku as daimyo, which some other guys disagreed he should have."

In spite of Disa's protests to the contrary, I am not editing in the word daimyo in place of guys, just because the other guys were also daimyo.

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Yes this is Godwin and you already lost the argument before it started. Why? Because there were several other factors that lead to the extermination of the Jews. Mainly it was antisemetism of the common man that protelled the genocide. If they were armed, it wouldn't make a hell of a difference. The Gestapo were fanatically trained as opposed to the Jew who had no military experience or training.
N3bu
Amusingly enough you didn't even answer your own god-damn rhetorical question.

What would have happened had the Jews been armed? They still would have been slaughtered. The difference being they would of taken some Nazis with them and there probably wouldn't have been any left to free from camps by 1945.


No, I answered it pretty clearly, when addressing the few jews who didn't surrender their weapons. As a minority surrounded by people who hated them, they would have had to have first converged and then left as a mobile army to a foreign land. Many would die but more of them would have survived in the long run. Many of them didn't leave though, because they grew too comfortable where they were and they believed things wouldn't get as bad as they became. While keeping their arms meant many were certain to die, you MUST think about the logistics. The majority of captured happened not with tanks, but with armed men. If they had killed some of the people who came to capture, imprison, and execute them, then those dead could not participate in the capture and execution of others. The infrastructure for genocide would have also been disrupted.

The reason the slaughter was so high was because of the lack of resistance. Where there is resistance to genocide, the total casualties are reduced.
Michael Noire
N3bu
Amusingly enough you didn't even answer your own god-damn rhetorical question.

What would have happened had the Jews been armed? They still would have been slaughtered. The difference being they would of taken some Nazis with them and there probably wouldn't have been any left to free from camps by 1945.


As a minority surrounded by people who hated them, they would have had to have first converged and then left as a mobile army to a foreign land.

When do you suppose that would of happened? The second Kristalnacht occurs and the Jews show an ounce of armed resistance the Nazi plan shifts immediately from detainment to pacification right from the start using armed rebellion as a justification. There are no concentration camps or death camps because the Nazi just walk right into ghettos and start shooting.

The Jews being armed gives them nothing. The Jews fleeing for their lives to other countries (that accept them, probably not many) by '33 and their survival rate goes right up. Given that IIRC many jews tried to flee but were denied the chance by the countries they were fleeing too, I'm pretty sure there wasn't much they could of done.
N3bu
Given that IIRC many jews tried to flee but were denied the chance by the countries they were fleeing too, I'm pretty sure there wasn't much they could of done.


yeah but see now they're in a group and they're armed. they can force their way in!
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Michael Noire
If they had killed some of the people who came to capture, imprison, and execute them, then those dead could not participate in the capture and execution of others. The infrastructure for genocide would have also been disrupted.

The reason the slaughter was so high was because of the lack of resistance. Where there is resistance to genocide, the total casualties are reduced.
Like Nebu said, violent resistance would have provided material for propaganda. By far the best response to the Nazis from the German society as a whole would have been never voting Hitler in as Chancellor. After that mistake, hindsight suggests that the best avenue of escape is not resistance but flight - resistance results in certain death on the individual level, where it counts, and doesn't guarantee the collapse of the regime, which is necessary to protect the rest of the Jewish people in Germany.
There will be people like this with regards to the pharmacaust too.
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Michael Noire
Hitler killed 6 million disarmed Jews. Many of them had guns at one time, but were required by increasingly infringing legislation and later confiscations to turn them in. The laws created in Nazi Germany were designed to disarm a portion of the population so that that population could be controlled and exterminated.

The first rule of People Quoting Godwin: Don't.
Godwin never fought in any war. Godwin never wondered what it would be like to lose his own rights, or have to march to his own death. Godwin isn't a leader, he isn't a soldier, and he isn't a holocaust victim. Godwin is a worthless piece of s**t that intentionally pushes people away from History, because Godwin wants you to forget, when you should Never forget.
Congratulations! You've just invoked Godwin's Law. What this means is that you automatically lose whatever argument you're attempting to make by comparing apples to oranges. We do thank you for your attempt, but by invoking Godwin's Law, you show yourself to be little more than an internet troll. None-the-less, we thank you for your attempt at a thought out, though poorly conceived post. Please come back, and attempt to discuss again at another time when your brain isn't so addled by those pesky Nazis.

This post has been brought to you by the Committee for Prevention of Poor Trolling and Logic Bombs (CPPTLB)

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