Christians out there who have read "The Anti-Christ(ian

[Berezi]

Ragnarok5.8

I think I have explained this above. Just for clarity however their lives should, in ideal christianity, be free from things of this world. By definition then they probably haven't done much of practical value if they are the Christian ideal.

Excuse me, what? The "world" that the Bible refers to when it says to "reject the things of this world" means the sinful world. Should Christians reject sin? YES. That's almost a no duh statement right there. Reject the ways of sin. Duh. God isn't sin. When trying to live life for God, you want to reject sin, because sin is not God. Sin is what keeps us away from God.

Also, I take great offense to your statement that Christans who try to live like the Christian ideal do nothing practical.

Does that mean when I try to be loving and kind to everyone around me, I'm not doing anything practical? Is helping my friends when they are sad and encouraging them to live impractical? If you say that it is impractical, I'll have to kick your butt for de-valuing my friends by saying that ensuring that they have a desire to live and that they are happy is impractical. That's like saying they are impractical, and I will not stand for that.
Are you saying that when I paid 150 dollars to go to Savannah, Georgia and roof someone's house for free, I was doing something impractical? That house needed a roof desperately. The water damage on that roof was unspeakable.
Are you saying it was impractical when I spent 8 hours of my day roofing someone's porch? Are you saying it was impractical when I served food at a dinner theatre? How about when I welcome people into my church and into my circle of friends, or when I tutor someone in a class?

All of these things I listed are things that someone might do when living by the Christian ideal as put down in the Bible, not as declared by some priest.

Sorry if I got a little too...uppity. I felt as if this issue needed to be cleared up. I will not sit there and let you call everything in my life I've done in God's name a waste.

[Christabelle]

Berezi - Wow. Mind if I pm you about some stuff in the Bible that's been bothering me lately?

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3. Christianity created the concept of free will

Uh, no. How about zoroastrism? You had free will, of course you should always do what's right. Hinduism and Buddhism also said people had free will. But what they did would either earn them good karma or bad karma and if you had bad karma, then you'd be reborn as a lowlier being.

The ideal Christian is just that. An ideal. You can't possibly be perfect because even if you do follow the Bible, there are always other interpretations of it.

[Strider WolfKnight]

Ragnarok5.8

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

Why not the 162 commandments? Read Exodus, Moses doesn't stop at ten. Maybe because your supposed to kill homosexuals and stone audulterers? Or is it the many prescriptions for properly dealing with your human property?

First off I said 10 NOT 162. I only follow the TEN commandments. They pretty selfexplanitory. I dont understand why you lot are getting heated up about this. confused

[Ragnarok5.8]

Strider WolfKnight

Ragnarok5.8

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

Why not the 162 commandments? Read Exodus, Moses doesn't stop at ten. Maybe because your supposed to kill homosexuals and stone audulterers? Or is it the many prescriptions for properly dealing with your human property?

First off I said 10 NOT 162. I only follow the TEN commandments. They pretty selfexplanitory. I dont understand why you lot are getting heated up about this. confused

So Moses was right for the first ten and then wrong afterwards?

[Ragnarok5.8]

Berezi

Ragnarok5.8

I think I have explained this above. Just for clarity however their lives should, in ideal christianity, be free from things of this world. By definition then they probably haven't done much of practical value if they are the Christian ideal.

Excuse me, what? The "world" that the Bible refers to when it says to "reject the things of this world" means the sinful world. Should Christians reject sin? YES. That's almost a no duh statement right there. Reject the ways of sin. Duh. God isn't sin. When trying to live life for God, you want to reject sin, because sin is not God. Sin is what keeps us away from God.

Also, I take great offense to your statement that Christans who try to live like the Christian ideal do nothing practical.

Does that mean when I try to be loving and kind to everyone around me, I'm not doing anything practical? Is helping my friends when they are sad and encouraging them to live impractical? If you say that it is impractical, I'll have to kick your butt for de-valuing my friends by saying that ensuring that they have a desire to live and that they are happy is impractical. That's like saying they are impractical, and I will not stand for that.
Are you saying that when I paid 150 dollars to go to Savannah, Georgia and roof someone's house for free, I was doing something impractical? That house needed a roof desperately. The water damage on that roof was unspeakable.
Are you saying it was impractical when I spent 8 hours of my day roofing someone's porch? Are you saying it was impractical when I served food at a dinner theatre? How about when I welcome people into my church and into my circle of friends, or when I tutor someone in a class?

All of these things I listed are things that someone might do when living by the Christian ideal as put down in the Bible, not as declared by some priest.

Sorry if I got a little too...uppity. I felt as if this issue needed to be cleared up. I will not sit there and let you call everything in my life I've done in God's name a waste.

So did you read my post with the goal of being outraged? Because you have profoundly misread everything I wrote.

If as the ideal Christian, which you are not, you do not concern yourself with vainities and transitory nothingness such as friends' porches. And should you not be working on someone who is homeless? Someone without a porch to begin with.

I did not say that if you are a christian everything you do is worthless. What I am saying is that if you are an ideal christian you will not do anything of practical value. However your not an ideal Christian so you don't have to worry about that.

[Strider WolfKnight]

No no no. God gave Moses the 10 commandments silly. Like I said they are pretty self explanitory.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Strider WolfKnight

No no no. God gave Moses the 10 commandments silly. Like I said they are pretty self explanitory.

Why do you feel it necessary to patronise me? Anyway.
Starting at 11.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. 24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. 25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. 26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. 7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. 8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. 12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. 13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee. 14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die. 15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. 16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. 18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: 19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed. 20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. 26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. 27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake. 28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. 30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him. 31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. 32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. 33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an a** fall therein; 34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his. 35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide. 36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

In case you are wondering they are mostly in Exodus 21. There are a bunch more but I wanted to keep the post under a million pages.

[Ragnarok5.8]

[Ragnarok5.8]

Ragnarok5.8

Christabelle

Berezi - Wow. Mind if I pm you about some stuff in the Bible that's been bothering me lately?

Quote:

3. Christianity created the concept of free will

Uh, no. How about zoroastrism? You had free will, of course you should always do what's right. Hinduism and Buddhism also said people had free will. But what they did would either earn them good karma or bad karma and if you had bad karma, then you'd be reborn as a lowlier being.

The ideal Christian is just that. An ideal. You can't possibly be perfect because even if you do follow the Bible, there are always other interpretations of it.

It is simply an interpretation used by the church. If what you do wrong is only a function of you choosing to do wrong it justifies punishment. Therefore circumstance is not a factor. Free will was not invented by the Christians (or Jews who the Christians are an evolution of) but its use as justification for punishment is somewhat unique.

[Strider WolfKnight]

all that is good and dandy but its all just the same thing the 10 commandments in a LONG passage. xp

[Berezi]

Strider WolfKnight

all that is good and dandy but its all just the same thing the 10 commandments in a LONG passage. xp

XD Is he perhaps referring to those ceremonial laws? With Jesus's death, those laws are not applicable to us anymore. Just to let you know.

And to Christabelle - I'd be glad to start some sort of PM thing with you. Although, I don't know everything there is to know, so I'll say "I don't know" to some of your questions most likely.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Psilan

Ragnarok5.8

1. Christianity is the peak of the power of the priest. Priests are needed to maintain the sickness of a population at a certain level and to prevent the ascendence of great people.

Incorrect. Example: Quakers, Pietists, some Anabaptist sects which lack the notion of the Priest as a concept. There are church leaders, but what do expect? Any social organization needs some form of authority in order to prevent anarchy.

Again, the majority of Christians are not Quakers, Pietists or some Anabaptist sects.

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2. Christianity, with its preference of the weak, the humble, "the least amongst you" actively creates weakness and frailty by condemning power and achievement.

Howso? Believe it or not, Christianity does see issues in shades of gray.

If the poor and wretched are preferable how would that not translate into prefering weakness?

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3. Christianity created the concept of free will

Really? That I very much doubt, for two reasons. First, compared to, say, Hinduism, Christianity is one of the new guys on the religious block, clocking in at just under 2000 years old. I would be stunned to learn that there was no speculation of freedom of choice in Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any of the ethnic pagan religions that predate Christianity.

Your right, there are other religions with the concept of Free Will. I should have been more specific. It invented Free Will as a means toward punishment.

Second, there are Christians that flat-out reject the notion of Free Will. Namely Calvinists.

The notion of providence is a Christian ideal. However it was never mainstream and is almost dead now.

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in order that it could punish any one leaving their sick, and thus priest dependent state. Note here, he does not say that everything is determined by circumstance (he is not entirely determinist) but he says that the church entirely ignores circumstance's influence on people.

This I would also say is untrue. I believe Augustine claimed that understanding motive, means, and circumstances were all necessary to determine an action's morality.

Yes, but he does not recognize the imperative of some people to do evil things based on the circumstances. Augustine uses circumstance to set what is morally right, not when the morally right thing to do is impossible, hopelessly impractical.

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4. Christianity, with its rejection of "things of this world" demands of its followers hermetic, sickly and wholly worthless lives. Example monasteries. By treating anything of practical or intellectual value as worthless it reduces its followers to slaves of a "next world," which is of course manipulated and formed by the priest.

Counterargument: Protestantism, and in particular Calvinism, contained theological ethics imperative to the creation of the modern capitalist state. See, namely, Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Sprit of Captialism.

Calvinists, influencial mostly in France, were never a big part of Christianity. Their far more numerous providence believing counterparts, the Puritans, were highly isolated from the world. Anyway, neither was ever a large part of Christianity as a whole. Also, if I remember correctly even the Protestants in America were awefully pissed off at many heretics who founded the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

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5. In a similar argument to #4 he maintians that the preference of Faith over what can be known also creates slaves to the priest.

Howso?

If faith is more important than reason the priest can never be wrong. After all, anything to refute him is a breakdown of faith.

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6. The ideal christian is a monk, or a castrate. Someone wholly striped of their natural gifts and passions and reduced to a sickly slave of "the next world."

Incorrect on all counts. How else do you explain the lack of monastic life and religiously motivated self-mutilation in Protestant faiths?

Your correct, that is only a legitimate criticism of Catholicism.

P.S. - As to your reference to Ecclesiastes, the word is not 'vanity' but 'transitory.' The Hebrew word is hevel, literally meaning "a puff of air," and understood by most scholars to refer to the impermanent nature of worldly glory, not the vanity of its seekers or the worthlessness of its achievement.

A quote from Ecclesiastes:

1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Pretty nihilistic, even if it means that nothing is worthwhile because it is a "puff of air."

1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

Seems pretty clear to me that reason and knowledge are useless pursuits.

1:8 I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts. 9 So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me. 10 And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. 11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

So much for the honorable stewardship of posessions being worthwhile.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Berezi

Strider WolfKnight

all that is good and dandy but its all just the same thing the 10 commandments in a LONG passage. xp

XD Is he perhaps referring to those ceremonial laws? With Jesus's death, those laws are not applicable to us anymore. Just to let you know.

And to Christabelle - I'd be glad to start some sort of PM thing with you. Although, I don't know everything there is to know, so I'll say "I don't know" to some of your questions most likely.

If you keep reading to the end its not just ceremonial stuff. It tells you the laws of slavery. I didn't include them all, if you read starting in Exodus 21 you will find prescriptions on all sorts of things people do that you need to kill them for and how you should kill them. With the exception of the alter stuff in the begining it has very little to do with ceremony.

My point is, 10 is a completely arbitrary place to stop.

[Berezi]

Ragnarok5.8

Berezi

Strider WolfKnight

all that is good and dandy but its all just the same thing the 10 commandments in a LONG passage. xp

XD Is he perhaps referring to those ceremonial laws? With Jesus's death, those laws are not applicable to us anymore. Just to let you know.

And to Christabelle - I'd be glad to start some sort of PM thing with you. Although, I don't know everything there is to know, so I'll say "I don't know" to some of your questions most likely.

If you keep reading to the end its not just ceremonial stuff. It tells you the laws of slavery. I didn't include them all, if you read starting in Exodus 21 you will find prescriptions on all sorts of things people do that you need to kill them for and how you should kill them. With the exception of the alter stuff in the begining it has very little to do with ceremony.

My point is, 10 is a completely arbitrary place to stop.

::nod:: I get where you're coming from.

You see, the first ten are consistent in the Bible as messages from God to do. The sacrificial rites aren't as important as the heart. And those people getting killed things also aren't important anymore because we now have a way to purify ourselves of sin. We don't need to oust sin from our community anymore. God basically started a new covenant.

I try to follow the Ten Commandments, but that's because the Ten Commandments show up everywhere else in the Bible and God says, "Follow them!" It's not because they're the first ten.

[Psilan]

Ragnarok5.8

Again, the majority of Christians are not Quakers, Pietists or some Anabaptist sects.

Irrelevant, as the post references the totality of Christianity, not just the majority.

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If the poor and wretched are preferable how would that not translate into prefering weakness?

Where are you getting that being poor and wretched is preferable? For that matter, what makes someone poor or wretched?

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Your right, there are other religions with the concept of Free Will. I should have been more specific. It invented Free Will as a means toward punishment.

Again, wrong. Judaism had a concept of punishment for bad choices before Christianity. As did Zoroastrianism.

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The notion of providence is a Christian ideal. However it was never mainstream and is almost dead now.

Who says it's an ideal?

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Yes, but he does not recognize the imperative of some people to do evil things based on the circumstances. Augustine uses circumstance to set what is morally right, not when the morally right thing to do is impossible, hopelessly impractical.

Again irrelevant, since his statement was proven wrong: namely, that the church entirely ignores circumstance. It does not.

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Calvinists, influencial mostly in France, were never a big part of Christianity. Their far more numerous providence believing counterparts, the Puritans, were highly isolated from the world. Anyway, neither was ever a large part of Christianity as a whole. Also, if I remember correctly even the Protestants in America were awefully pissed off at many heretics who founded the country.

Again irrelevant, since the argument speaks to the totality of Christianity. If you or your sources have problems with Catholicism, perhaps you should consider referencing only that subset.

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If faith is more important than reason the priest can never be wrong. After all, anything to refute him is a breakdown of faith.

.... What? I mean, seriously, what? This would be the cast if the object of the believers faith is in the priest, but this is not the case for a great many Christians, who instead hold as matters of faith Biblical teachings as central. If a leader goes against the Bible, he is probably going to lose.

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Your correct, that is only a legitimate criticism of Catholicism.

Barely even that.

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Pretty nihilistic, even if it means that nothing is worthwhile because it is a "puff of air." ... Seems pretty clear to me that reason and knowledge are useless pursuits. ... So much for the honorable stewardship of posessions being worthwhile.

You might want to go and pick up a commentary, maybe the Anchor Bible or Kathleen Farmer's Who Knows What Is Good? If you want to actually learn the current scholarship on Ecclesiastes. You might also want to read past the first chapter. Because then you would find things like:

Ecclesiastes 2:13-15

I saw that wisdom is better than folly,
just as light is better than darkness. The wise man has eyes in his head, while the fool walks in the darkness; but I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both.

Ecclesiastes 2:24

A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God.