Christians out there who have read "The Anti-Christ(ian

[Ragnarok5.8]

First off I am not going to say that Christianity is any more wrong than any other religion (or atheism). What I am wondering is what the Christian response to the Anti-Christ(ian) by Friedrcih Nietzsche is. For those of you who need a refresher or have never read the book I will give you a quick summary of the central arguement. (Well the central arguement against the JudeoChristian institutions because his arguments against the existance of god or the afterlife are, well, pretty weak)

1. Christianity is the peak of the power of the priest. Priests are needed to maintain the sickness of a population at a certain level and to prevent the ascendence of great people.

2. Christianity, with its preference of the weak, the humble, "the least amongst you" actively creates weakness and frailty by condemning power and achievement.

3. Christianity created the concept of free will in order that it could punish any one leaving their sick, and thus priest dependent state. Note here, he does not say that everything is determined by circumstance (he is not entirely determinist) but he says that the church entirely ignores circumstance's influence on people. For example Christianity would look at the herione growing industry in Afghanistan as a manifestation of spiritual infidelity or moral decay where Nietzsche would look at it as a manifestation that they are desperately poor and there is good money in heroine.

4. Christianity, with its rejection of "things of this world" demands of its followers hermetic, sickly and wholly worthless lives. Example monasteries. By treating anything of practical or intellectual value as worthless it reduces its followers to slaves of a "next world," which is of course manipulated and formed by the priest.

5. In a similar argument to #4 he maintians that the preference of Faith over what can be known also creates slaves to the priest.

6. The ideal christian is a monk, or a castrate. Someone wholly striped of their natural gifts and passions and reduced to a sickly slave of "the next world."

[Maze1125]

Well christianity was used as a power tool by preists for most of history. That doesn't mean that christianity is false though.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Maze1125

Well christianity was used as a power tool by preists for most of history. That doesn't meen it's christianity is false though.

It is an argument that Christianity is philosophically bankrupt. Has it stopped being used?

[Axioma]

Ragnarok5.8

Maze1125

Well christianity was used as a power tool by preists for most of history. That doesn't meen it's christianity is false though.

It is an argument that Christianity is philosophically bankrupt. Has it stopped being used?

Well, when you make a description of something in 1888, it might not be as accurate in 2005.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Axioma

Ragnarok5.8

Maze1125

Well christianity was used as a power tool by preists for most of history. That doesn't meen it's christianity is false though.

It is an argument that Christianity is philosophically bankrupt. Has it stopped being used?

Well, when you make a description of something in 1888, it might not be as accurate in 2005.

For example, the Christian priest still uses the fallacy of absolute free will to condemn the "sinner" that is a homosexual. Pope Pious (the last one) used his position (in the 1950's) to steal Jewish children for the sake of the "next world." What now stands in the way of teaching evolution in schools? Could it be the Christian imperative for faith over reason? Just a few examples.

Christians are still supposed to revere the sick and lowly over the successful. People don't really listen to that so much any more but that's because the church's power is falling, not because they believe it any less. The Christian is still supposed to reject the things of this world.

I can't think of anything he refered to in 1888 that isn't still around.

[Strider WolfKnight]

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

[Tamaras Craft]

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

i saw your sig,if you knew what the crusaders did you wouldnot openly callyour self one,you make me sick *pukes*

calling your self a crusaderis like calling your self a nazi *pukes again*

[Gabrielle Diamond]

Tamaras Craft

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

i saw your sig,if you knew what the crusaders did you wouldnot openly callyour self one,you make me sick *pukes*

calling your self a crusaderis like calling your self a nazi *pukes again*

A crusade can also be:
1: exert oneself continuously, vigorously, or obtrusively to gain an end or engage in a crusade for a certain cause or person; be an advocate for;

Please check ALL your definitions before you puke over my friend and I. sad

[Operation Shoestring]

Ragnarok5.8

First off I am not going to say that Christianity is any more wrong than any other religion (or atheism). What I am wondering is what the Christian response to the Anti-Christ(ian) by Friedrcih Nietzsche is. For those of you who need a refresher or have never read the book I will give you a quick summary of the central arguement. (Well the central arguement against the JudeoChristian institutions because his arguments against the existance of god or the afterlife are, well, pretty weak)

1. Christianity is the peak of the power of the priest.

How so? priets have very limited influece, and are not teh peack of anything. Christianity is a religion, not merely a priest's power.

Quote:

Priests are needed to maintain the sickness of a population at a certain level and to prevent the ascendence of great people.

How do priests maintain "sickness" Is thsi calling Christinity a sickness? if so, PROVE IT.

And Chriostianity hgas prepeatedly proved it's self of doing just fine without pries. Note the Society of Friends for starters.

And as for teh BS about ascendence of "great people"... again Where's teh evidence.

Quote:

2. Christianity, with its preference of the weak, the humble, "the least amongst you" actively creates weakness and frailty by condemning power and achievement.

Oh, thi si so much bullshit misinterpretion via word semantics. Chrisanity NEVER prefered teh "Weak" it does prefer the humble, but humility is a sighn of STRONg self-control. And "teh Least among you" refers to least in SOCIAL STANDING, not ability.

Quote:

3. Christianity created the concept of free will in order that it could punish any one leaving their sick, and thus priest dependent state. Note here, he does not say that everything is determined by circumstance (he is not entirely determinist) but he says that the church entirely ignores circumstance's influence on people. For example Christianity would look at the herione growing industry in Afghanistan as a manifestation of spiritual infidelity or moral decay where Nietzsche would look at it as a manifestation that they are desperately poor and there is good money in heroine.

Again, unfounded misrepresentation of Christianity and humanity. Sure teh Heroin sellers may use the money to prop themselvbes up from a desperately poor state, but it is still a moral choice,.. there are other equally poor people who are not selling heroin. Heroine sales is NOT a inevitable product of poor people needing money.

Quote:

4. Christianity, with its rejection of "things of this world" demands of its followers hermetic, sickly and wholly worthless lives.

Bullshit. Christinaity Places high value on any possessions a Christian has, as all such possesions are held "in stewrdship" for gopd, and do nit actually belong to teh Christian, Thsu asny misuse of Worldy wealth is an offense agaisnt God by bad stewardship. This does encourage a "give all to the poor and follow me" atitude, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote:

Example monasteries. By treating anything of practical or intellectual value as worthless it reduces its followers to slaves of a "next world," which is of course manipulated and formed by the priest.

Bullshit pholosohpical steroetyping. Monestaries, real monestariues, not imaginalr archetypal sterotypes, provided MANY valuable services to nearby communities, including Education, Healthcare, and a place to safely contain excess male population in a non-violent envioronment.

Quote:

5. In a similar argument to #4 he maintians that the preference of Faith over what can be known also creates slaves to the priest.

Again, BS. No one has to follow a priest. All teh Schisms you no doubt must have noticed if you ever studied history prove at least that much.

Quote:

6. The ideal christian is a monk, or a castrate.

PRovide one, just ONE piece of solid evidence for that statement please.

Quote:

Someone wholly striped of their natural gifts and passions and reduced to a sickly slave of "the next world."

So you're saing monks and eunuchs have nbo gifts passions or value? WELL, EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO TELL ALL THE MONKS OF THE WORLD THAT THEIR LIVES HAVE NO VALUE, BECAUSE YOU SAID FRIEDRICH NEITCHE SAID SO.

[Strider WolfKnight]

Gabrielle_Diamond

Tamaras Craft

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

i saw your sig,if you knew what the crusaders did you wouldnot openly callyour self one,you make me sick *pukes*

calling your self a crusaderis like calling your self a nazi *pukes again*

A crusade can also be:
1: exert oneself continuously, vigorously, or obtrusively to gain an end or engage in a crusade for a certain cause or person; be an advocate for;

Please check ALL your definitions before you puke over my friend and I. sad

exactly. stare you really should check what you know before saying such things. I AM NOT A NAZI!! stressed scream *is highly insulted*

[Jassinm]

Tamaras Craft

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

i saw your sig,if you knew what the crusaders did you wouldnot openly callyour self one,you make me sick *pukes*

calling your self a crusaderis like calling your self a nazi *pukes again*

If you knew anything about the Nazis you would not compare crusaders to Nazis. Nazi (National Socialist German Worker's Party)=/=Third Reich.

[Strider WolfKnight]

Jassinm

Tamaras Craft

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

i saw your sig,if you knew what the crusaders did you wouldnot openly callyour self one,you make me sick *pukes*

calling your self a crusaderis like calling your self a nazi *pukes again*

If you knew anything about the Nazis you would not compare crusaders to Nazis. Nazi (National Socialist German Worker's Party)=/=Third Reich.

thank you Jassimn... sad

[Ragnarok5.8]

AyanamiRei

Ragnarok5.8

First off I am not going to say that Christianity is any more wrong than any other religion (or atheism). What I am wondering is what the Christian response to the Anti-Christ(ian) by Friedrcih Nietzsche is. For those of you who need a refresher or have never read the book I will give you a quick summary of the central arguement. (Well the central arguement against the JudeoChristian institutions because his arguments against the existance of god or the afterlife are, well, pretty weak)

1. Christianity is the peak of the power of the priest.

How so? priets have very limited influece, and are not teh peack of anything. Christianity is a religion, not merely a priest's power.

Ever heard of that Pope fellow? The priest is prominent in, to name but a few, the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox ect.

Quote:

Priests are needed to maintain the sickness of a population at a certain level and to prevent the ascendence of great people.

How do priests maintain "sickness" Is thsi calling Christinity a sickness? if so, PROVE IT.

Yes, that is exactly what he proposes. It is weakness worship and the complete divorce from nature in its ideal form. If you read a little St. Augustan you can definitely see where this idea came from. Since, according to Ecclesiastes and Paul success is vanity, can you really say Christianity encourages success?

And Chriostianity hgas prepeatedly proved it's self of doing just fine without pries. Note the Society of Friends for starters.

The Society of Who? Like I said above, the influencial Christian denominations are very priest heavy.

And as for teh BS about ascendence of "great people"... again Where's teh evidence.

Galileo, Machiavelli, Darwin, Hume, Luther (this one's ironic), Joan of Arc, and even Descartes, what do they have in common? The Church hated them.

Quote:

2. Christianity, with its preference of the weak, the humble, "the least amongst you" actively creates weakness and frailty by condemning power and achievement.

Oh, thi si so much bullshit misinterpretion via word semantics. Chrisanity NEVER prefered teh "Weak" it does prefer the humble, but humility is a sighn of STRONg self-control. And "teh Least among you" refers to least in SOCIAL STANDING, not ability.

The least in social standing, Huh? Christianity would perhaps prefer Timothy McVeigh in favor of Nelson Mandela? Humility is strong self control? If you are brilliant and you tell everyone that your nothing special isn't that just lying?

Quote:

3. Christianity created the concept of free will in order that it could punish any one leaving their sick, and thus priest dependent state. Note here, he does not say that everything is determined by circumstance (he is not entirely determinist) but he says that the church entirely ignores circumstance's influence on people. For example Christianity would look at the herione growing industry in Afghanistan as a manifestation of spiritual infidelity or moral decay where Nietzsche would look at it as a manifestation that they are desperately poor and there is good money in heroine.

Again, unfounded misrepresentation of Christianity and humanity. Sure teh Heroin sellers may use the money to prop themselvbes up from a desperately poor state, but it is still a moral choice,.. there are other equally poor people who are not selling heroin. Heroine sales is NOT a inevitable product of poor people needing money.

Do you think they would be selling heroine if they were not desperately poor? I think not. Perhaps the path to moral rectitude is reached through luxury and wealth?

Quote:

4. Christianity, with its rejection of "things of this world" demands of its followers hermetic, sickly and wholly worthless lives.

Bullshit. Christinaity Places high value on any possessions a Christian has, as all such possesions are held "in stewrdship" for gopd, and do nit actually belong to teh Christian, Thsu asny misuse of Worldy wealth is an offense agaisnt God by bad stewardship. This does encourage a "give all to the poor and follow me" atitude, but there's nothing wrong with that.

You'll have to show me where in the Bible possesions are held in very high esteem. If you can do that you will have to explain the author of the Ecclesiastes and his rather persistent condemnation of all acheivement, and in fact, anything you do in this world as vanity. Paul also isn't such a big fan of achievement.

Quote:

Example monasteries. By treating anything of practical or intellectual value as worthless it reduces its followers to slaves of a "next world," which is of course manipulated and formed by the priest.

Bullshit pholosohpical steroetyping. Monestaries, real monestariues, not imaginalr archetypal sterotypes, provided MANY valuable services to nearby communities, including Education, Healthcare, and a place to safely contain excess male population in a non-violent envioronment.

Who is it again who takes the vow of silence? Monks maybe? Is it not them who are to completely shun the things of this world and spend all of their time in prayer and meditation?

Quote:

5. In a similar argument to #4 he maintians that the preference of Faith over what can be known also creates slaves to the priest.

Again, BS. No one has to follow a priest. All teh Schisms you no doubt must have noticed if you ever studied history prove at least that much.

If you don't believe in his doctrine (not a Christian, or not afraid of going to hell) you don't have to follow him. However "teh Schisms" were not the result of the church getting too far out of touch with the world. Quite the opposite. Protestantism is largely a reaction of the Catholic Church converting faith into currency (indulgences). Thus, only when the church gets too far away from the other world and too close to this one do people dissaprove of it.

Quote:

6. The ideal christian is a monk, or a castrate.

PRovide one, just ONE piece of solid evidence for that statement please.

A monk or christian castrate is:
1. Celibate
2. Pure and free from the things of this world
3. Opposed to reason when it conflicts with his faith
4. Opposed to pretty much anything nature would compel him to do.

Quote:

Someone wholly striped of their natural gifts and passions and reduced to a sickly slave of "the next world."

So you're saing monks and eunuchs have nbo gifts passions or value? WELL, EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO TELL ALL THE MONKS OF THE WORLD THAT THEIR LIVES HAVE NO VALUE, BECAUSE YOU SAID FRIEDRICH NEITCHE SAID SO.

I think I have explained this above. Just for clarity however their lives should, in ideal christianity, be free from things of this world. By definition then they probably haven't done much of practical value if they are the Christian ideal.

[Ragnarok5.8]

Strider WolfKnight

I really could care less what a priest says. I follow the bible and its teachings. Priests are still human. They make mistakes. I rule my life by the 10 commandments.

Why not the 162 commandments? Read Exodus, Moses doesn't stop at ten. Maybe because your supposed to kill homosexuals and stone audulterers? Or is it the many prescriptions for properly dealing with your human property?

[Psilan]

Ragnarok5.8

1. Christianity is the peak of the power of the priest. Priests are needed to maintain the sickness of a population at a certain level and to prevent the ascendence of great people.

Incorrect. Example: Quakers, Pietists, some Anabaptist sects which lack the notion of the Priest as a concept. There are church leaders, but what do expect? Any social organization needs some form of authority in order to prevent anarchy.

Quote:

2. Christianity, with its preference of the weak, the humble, "the least amongst you" actively creates weakness and frailty by condemning power and achievement.

Howso? Believe it or not, Christianity does see issues in shades of gray.

Quote:

3. Christianity created the concept of free will

Really? That I very much doubt, for two reasons. First, compared to, say, Hinduism, Christianity is one of the new guys on the religious block, clocking in at just under 2000 years old. I would be stunned to learn that there was no speculation of freedom of choice in Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any of the ethnic pagan religions that predate Christianity.

Second, there are Christians that flat-out reject the notion of Free Will. Namely Calvinists.

Quote:

in order that it could punish any one leaving their sick, and thus priest dependent state. Note here, he does not say that everything is determined by circumstance (he is not entirely determinist) but he says that the church entirely ignores circumstance's influence on people.

This I would also say is untrue. I believe Augustine claimed that understanding motive, means, and circumstances were all necessary to determine an action's morality.

Quote:

4. Christianity, with its rejection of "things of this world" demands of its followers hermetic, sickly and wholly worthless lives. Example monasteries. By treating anything of practical or intellectual value as worthless it reduces its followers to slaves of a "next world," which is of course manipulated and formed by the priest.

Counterargument: Protestantism, and in particular Calvinism, contained theological ethics imperative to the creation of the modern capitalist state. See, namely, Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Sprit of Captialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

Quote:

5. In a similar argument to #4 he maintians that the preference of Faith over what can be known also creates slaves to the priest.

Howso?

Quote:

6. The ideal christian is a monk, or a castrate. Someone wholly striped of their natural gifts and passions and reduced to a sickly slave of "the next world."

Incorrect on all counts. How else do you explain the lack of monastic life and religiously motivated self-mutilation in Protestant faiths?


P.S. - As to your reference to Ecclesiastes, the word is not 'vanity' but 'transitory.' The Hebrew word is hevel, literally meaning "a puff of air," and understood by most scholars to refer to the impermanent nature of worldly glory, not the vanity of its seekers or the worthlessness of its achievement.