Why is it okay to be transgender, but not trans'race'?

[cabbage3]

Artificers Reverie

The amount of absurdity in this whole thread is mind blowing.

YES. And if this wasn't SO absurd, I'd think that the 10,000 gold to tip your point would be worth it.

(Not being sarcastic here.)

[cabbage3]

HiretsunaSushi

castigat ridendo mores

HiretsunaSushi

I'm Trans-species.

I'm secretly an eldritch horror in the making.

Fthagen

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

heart You will be well prepared when our master wakes.

Possibly the least absurd thing I've read here yet.

[cabbage3]

Raven Winter

a bottle of war

You.
You, you... you.

You.

heart

Hahaha I know it's funny now isn't it?

[cabbage3]

sarita caprico

No matter how much you want to change your genes.... you cant. If you're white you'll always have white babies. I'm sorry but there's just no way around this. Isn't it just common sense?

Hahahah remember that news story about a prestigious-ish family who started having kids but then all of the kids kinda looked wrong and a little "off"? The husband finds out that his wife had plastic surgery and formerly looked really kinda... "ugly" in the face. So he was trying to sue her! For marrying an ugg-o and having ugg-o babies!

[Monsieur Artificer]

shockascent

Lars Gizmo

How can someone be transrace? Like how would that process work? I have more of an understanding of how someone can be trans gendered...

Maybe through a brain transplant being trans-racial could work.

If you're a white person with your memories but in the body of a black man living said black man's experiences, wouldn't that make you a black person?

Similarly the black person being a white person.

we're gonna ignore how that doesnt work.

[Mattakitsune]

There is a question that pervades this entire discussion: What is race?

[Shockascent]

Artificers Reverie

shockascent

Lars Gizmo

How can someone be transrace? Like how would that process work? I have more of an understanding of how someone can be trans gendered...

Maybe through a brain transplant being trans-racial could work.

If you're a white person with your memories but in the body of a black man living said black man's experiences, wouldn't that make you a black person?

Similarly the black person being a white person.

we're gonna ignore how that doesnt work.

Lol. There was an operation that a man did decades ago where he performed a somewhat "successful" head transplant of a chimpanzee. The chimpanzee survived and lived for a few hours (maybe less) before dying.

Operations like that tend to be illegal, not unfeasible.

Just because something currently seems unrealistic doesn't mean that it can't work within a context to make a concept seem hypothetically reasonable.

[Shockascent]

Mattakitsune

There is a question that pervades this entire discussion: What is race?

From what I've read and heard from other people -- race (ethnic classification) is part physical feature and part ancestry.

Edit: alongside part social construction/perception, I'd say.

[cabbage3]

Mattakitsune

There is a question that pervades this entire discussion: What is race?

Actually the idea of "race" being ancestry is a pretty Western idea, and one that's not technically correct either. We have this huge melting pot over here so it's easy to draw boundaries in that fashion. Other cultures draw boundaries differently. Where you live, what social class/lineage/family you might have come from, your status, heck even your state/province in those countries with long enough histories.
Our boundaries, these hues and physical traits that we see that we associate with "ancestry" have basis in ecology. Those living closer to the equator are darker skinned than those who don't. Those living in higher altitudes have rounder chests and shorter extremities than those living at sea level. Those living in colder climates have more heat conserving features (almost like a pika's nearly nonexistent earlobes versus a jack rabbit's giant heat radiating desert earlobes. Earlobes? Auricles?) Those living in drier, dustier climates have nostrils, lips, and brows that can handle dust and wind, those living in colder drier climates have features that can warm and moisturize air better, etc. These traits that we see are results of ecological factors that we've attributed to people living within the imaginary boundaries that we call "countries". However traits and people aren't boundaries. They are a gradient and they have been always.

To illustrate, I'll make you do this exercise instead of posting a bunch of pictures and links. I want you to open a map of Asia in one tab. I want you to look at and understand where the countries are. (Now like I said the boundaries are ones that we've drawn, but comparing them might be the easiest way to show you this gradient.)
Now, open mutiple tabs to make this comparison. In each tab, do a google image search of the country's traditional or modern women. Start from the northmost and go downwards. Type in "Traditional Russia women" in one tab, then "traditional Kazakhstan women" in the next tab, etc. going further south 'til about Iran (you can go further if you want, but that's probably enough tabs of images for your browser...) Now I want you to compare. See how their physical features and garbs and cultures are similar. Now I want you to compare again. See how they are different - see how their features change the closer to the equator they get. You can do this comparison for those living in mountainous regions versus non-mountainous regions.

See how it's a blend and not a hard drawn line of race?

Also, those of the same "race" (i.e. country of origin) have more differences between them than those of different race/country ancestry. Browns in Arabia look more like Browns in India than they look like Israelis... and they're way closer to Israel! Those in the Indian Negrito Islands look closer to Africans than to other mainland Indians. Nubian Africans have narrow cheekbone and nostril structure, yet native Olmec descendants (central America) have large lips and large nostrils (not what you were expecting at all)... So what IS race here if that much of a difference exists?

Also why is skin color and cranial/muscle structure the indicator for "race" instead of nostril width or crumbley/gooey earwax?

The definition of "race" isn't even the same everywhere and it looks like things that could've possibly indicated "race" aren't even the same everywhere either.

The truth is this: There is no real biological definition of race.
There isn't. Nada. The closest inkling of biological we can get with race is ecology, and even with that and molecular data (genetics) it still falls through.
Race isn't biologically real.
It's social. It's very very social.
Shall we do something about it?


Source: My degree in Anthropology biggrin

[Lars Gizmo]

shockascent

Artificers Reverie

shockascent

Lars Gizmo

How can someone be transrace? Like how would that process work? I have more of an understanding of how someone can be trans gendered...

Maybe through a brain transplant being trans-racial could work.

If you're a white person with your memories but in the body of a black man living said black man's experiences, wouldn't that make you a black person?

Similarly the black person being a white person.

we're gonna ignore how that doesnt work.

Lol. There was an operation that a man did decades ago where he performed a somewhat "successful" head transplant of a chimpanzee. The chimpanzee survived and lived for a few hours (maybe less) before dying.

Operations like that tend to be illegal, not unfeasible.

Just because something currently seems unrealistic doesn't mean that it can't work within a context to make a concept seem hypothetically reasonable.

you're reminded me of Dr. Canavero with his idea of the first human head transplant. He hopes to do so within to years I believe? Well, now that I think about it, if someone tried to become trans racial that way, wouldn't they be 3/4 or the way?

[Mattakitsune]

cabbage3

Mattakitsune

There is a question that pervades this entire discussion: What is race?

Actually the idea of "race" being ancestry is a pretty Western idea, and one that's not technically correct either. We have this huge melting pot over here so it's easy to draw boundaries in that fashion. Other cultures draw boundaries differently. Where you live, what social class/lineage/family you might have come from, your status, heck even your state/province in those countries with long enough histories.
Our boundaries, these hues and physical traits that we see that we associate with "ancestry" have basis in ecology. Those living closer to the equator are darker skinned than those who don't. Those living in higher altitudes have rounder chests and shorter extremities than those living at sea level. Those living in colder climates have more heat conserving features (almost like a pika's nearly nonexistent earlobes versus a jack rabbit's giant heat radiating desert earlobes. Earlobes? Auricles?) Those living in drier, dustier climates have nostrils, lips, and brows that can handle dust and wind, those living in colder drier climates have features that can warm and moisturize air better, etc. These traits that we see are results of ecological factors that we've attributed to people living within the imaginary boundaries that we call "countries". However traits and people aren't boundaries. They are a gradient and they have been always.

To illustrate, I'll make you do this exercise instead of posting a bunch of pictures and links. I want you to open a map of Asia in one tab. I want you to look at and understand where the countries are. (Now like I said the boundaries are ones that we've drawn, but comparing them might be the easiest way to show you this gradient.)
Now, open mutiple tabs to make this comparison. In each tab, do a google image search of the country's traditional or modern women. Start from the northmost and go downwards. Type in "Traditional Russia women" in one tab, then "traditional Kazakhstan women" in the next tab, etc. going further south 'til about Iran (you can go further if you want, but that's probably enough tabs of images for your browser...) Now I want you to compare. See how their physical features and garbs and cultures are similar. Now I want you to compare again. See how they are different - see how their features change the closer to the equator they get. You can do this comparison for those living in mountainous regions versus non-mountainous regions.

See how it's a blend and not a hard drawn line of race?

Also, those of the same "race" (i.e. country of origin) have more differences between them than those of different race/country ancestry. Browns in Arabia look more like Browns in India than they look like Israelis... and they're way closer to Israel! Those in the Indian Negrito Islands look closer to Africans than to other mainland Indians. Nubian Africans have narrow cheekbone and nostril structure, yet native Olmec descendants (central America) have large lips and large nostrils (not what you were expecting at all)... So what IS race here if that much of a difference exists?

Also why is skin color and cranial/muscle structure the indicator for "race" instead of nostril width or crumbley/gooey earwax?

The definition of "race" isn't even the same everywhere and it looks like things that could've possibly indicated "race" aren't even the same everywhere either.

The truth is this: There is no real biological definition of race.
There isn't. Nada. The closest inkling of biological we can get with race is ecology, and even with that and molecular data (genetics) it still falls through.
Race isn't biologically real.
It's social. It's very very social.
Shall we do something about it?


Source: My degree in Anthropology biggrin

This is precisely the reason I am fine with the concept of "trans-racialism", except regarding the idea that any lines of race were being crossed in the first place. To some degree it could be considered a racist concept to think of people as so separate in the first place. To me it seems no different to "getting a nose like that one celebrity" or the like.


Kind funny regarding earwax though, I never even realized some people's earwax was wet until I was like... 15.

[Shockascent]

Lars Gizmo

shockascent

Artificers Reverie

shockascent

Lars Gizmo

How can someone be transrace? Like how would that process work? I have more of an understanding of how someone can be trans gendered...

Maybe through a brain transplant being trans-racial could work.

If you're a white person with your memories but in the body of a black man living said black man's experiences, wouldn't that make you a black person?

Similarly the black person being a white person.

we're gonna ignore how that doesnt work.

Lol. There was an operation that a man did decades ago where he performed a somewhat "successful" head transplant of a chimpanzee. The chimpanzee survived and lived for a few hours (maybe less) before dying.

Operations like that tend to be illegal, not unfeasible.

Just because something currently seems unrealistic doesn't mean that it can't work within a context to make a concept seem hypothetically reasonable.

you're reminded me of Dr. Canavero with his idea of the first human head transplant. He hopes to do so within to years I believe? Well, now that I think about it, if someone tried to become trans racial that way, wouldn't they be 3/4 or the way?

Lol yeah, that'd probably be right. But then again in the United States bi-racial and multi-racial people can identify with a single ethnic group by having only a percentage of ancestry, so it wouldn't be too far off.

I also look at the possibility of a brain transplant being a much more advanced version of a head transplant.

[Shockascent]

cabbage3

Mattakitsune

There is a question that pervades this entire discussion: What is race?

Actually the idea of "race" being ancestry is a pretty Western idea, and one that's not technically correct either. We have this huge melting pot over here so it's easy to draw boundaries in that fashion. Other cultures draw boundaries differently. Where you live, what social class/lineage/family you might have come from, your status, heck even your state/province in those countries with long enough histories.
Our boundaries, these hues and physical traits that we see that we associate with "ancestry" have basis in ecology. Those living closer to the equator are darker skinned than those who don't. Those living in higher altitudes have rounder chests and shorter extremities than those living at sea level. Those living in colder climates have more heat conserving features (almost like a pika's nearly nonexistent earlobes versus a jack rabbit's giant heat radiating desert earlobes. Earlobes? Auricles?) Those living in drier, dustier climates have nostrils, lips, and brows that can handle dust and wind, those living in colder drier climates have features that can warm and moisturize air better, etc. These traits that we see are results of ecological factors that we've attributed to people living within the imaginary boundaries that we call "countries". However traits and people aren't boundaries. They are a gradient and they have been always.

To illustrate, I'll make you do this exercise instead of posting a bunch of pictures and links. I want you to open a map of Asia in one tab. I want you to look at and understand where the countries are. (Now like I said the boundaries are ones that we've drawn, but comparing them might be the easiest way to show you this gradient.)
Now, open mutiple tabs to make this comparison. In each tab, do a google image search of the country's traditional or modern women. Start from the northmost and go downwards. Type in "Traditional Russia women" in one tab, then "traditional Kazakhstan women" in the next tab, etc. going further south 'til about Iran (you can go further if you want, but that's probably enough tabs of images for your browser...) Now I want you to compare. See how their physical features and garbs and cultures are similar. Now I want you to compare again. See how they are different - see how their features change the closer to the equator they get. You can do this comparison for those living in mountainous regions versus non-mountainous regions.

See how it's a blend and not a hard drawn line of race?

Also, those of the same "race" (i.e. country of origin) have more differences between them than those of different race/country ancestry. Browns in Arabia look more like Browns in India than they look like Israelis... and they're way closer to Israel! Those in the Indian Negrito Islands look closer to Africans than to other mainland Indians. Nubian Africans have narrow cheekbone and nostril structure, yet native Olmec descendants (central America) have large lips and large nostrils (not what you were expecting at all)... So what IS race here if that much of a difference exists?

Also why is skin color and cranial/muscle structure the indicator for "race" instead of nostril width or crumbley/gooey earwax?

The definition of "race" isn't even the same everywhere and it looks like things that could've possibly indicated "race" aren't even the same everywhere either.

The truth is this: There is no real biological definition of race.
There isn't. Nada. The closest inkling of biological we can get with race is ecology, and even with that and molecular data (genetics) it still falls through.
Race isn't biologically real.
It's social. It's very very social.
Shall we do something about it?


Source: My degree in Anthropology biggrin

But then that description and explanation you gave begs the question: why is the concept of being trans-racial considered to be so absurd, when race itself is acknowledged as being a social construct where the concept varies by nation and culture?

If race is a social construct, then there's little scientific objectivity involved to it. Race can be transcended.

[cabbage3]

Are you referring to my previous comment about the thread's absurdity?

The THREAD POSTS are absurd. The arguable concepts, debatable.

Well actually it's all kinda absurd with the first few trolls in the first few pages. smile