How far is too far?

[rimedragona]

AikoMiyoko

The whole reason why I never step foot in the Site Feedback forums.
I actually kind of felt sorry for Zero, since he isn't upper management and I am pretty much sure he had to keep grounds neutral for formality sake.

You and me both. I used to spend a little time in the SF, mostly reading... but lately, I don't even want to look.

I feel sorry for any of the individual staff that actually has to interact with the general population, since it seems like most of the people who are going to interact with us aren't actually of a high enough authority to make the decisions people want made. Also, there's such a combative aura between the staff and users, and it really needs to be worked on from both sides to make it better. I think the first step needs to come from staff, though, personally. Not necessarily the ones we see, either, but the ones who make the big decisions.

[sup-qt]

I'm upset that this happened and also really worried about it.

When it first came to light what was going on, I was at first on the Admin's side (I still am a little).
At first I thought it would have been a nice surprise to see some items in Flynns and through it wouldn't have been such a bad idea, but after more came to light, with the over extensive amounts of gold being used to buy these items it seems really bad.

However, no one in no way, should ever be abused, staff or user and people giving the abuse should receive warnings/bans where necessary. Personal information shouldn't be given out either, it would be horrible if that person received hate letters or abuse, even more so out of Gaia.

I think that this is escalating because of the lack of staff involvement ever since AtA. I think a good way to replace the AtA would be if there was somewhere we could ask questions, and then people have three votes (or a certain amount) to spend each day/week to vote up a question they want answered. Then the questions with the most votes will be answered by an admin.
Might be a politer way to get answers from staff..


EDIT: I totally just made a thread about this

[Adnama Lavode]

All they deserve is to be called out on the very negative things the evidence points to. Not called names, not threatened, not messaged constantly or bothered through their profiles, and they should certainly never, ever get harassed in real life. None of that needs to happen. Anything that would be considered harassment of another user should also apply to staff, except namedropping. I say this because in order to get a scandal of this magnitude out in the open where staff can't sweep it away and forget about it, names are needed. If OP is saying things like "A certain admin used a mule to blah blah blah." then people will ask for specifics anyway, or not believe it without them. Without usernames, there's no evidence that can be shown. Literally none.

I'll never condone people harassing staff. They need to be held accountable if the accusations are true, but that needs to be handled by Gaia, or if it gets bigger, the FTC, not us.

[Kestrad]

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

[Bee Movie Suit]

Offtopic, but saw the thread title and was expecting a halloween event idea/discussion.
It would be a neat detective/mystery event instead of the zombies/vampire/werewolves/elves vs fights we get every year. sweatdrop

[Calelith]

Kestrad

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

"Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!"

There was at least one other time someone accused another of being a staff mule within the last few days.

Someone asked if the pictures were legit and not a Photoshop job and someone quoted them asking if they were a staff mule.

Regardless, that still doesn't excuse the accusation, even if it was meant as a "joke."

"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn."

[Gash Thrashum]

Can you direct me to specific cases of abusive behavior towards staff members and other users? I don't condone that at all. We want proper disclosure and accountability, and we definitely want to put the pressure on them to own up to this mess they've created, but not with abusive behavior.

I think it's important to separate the agitators from the 'movement' as a whole. It's unfair to label what we're doing a 'witch hunt' based on the actions of a few. I can't control what people say or do, and those abusive actions can be dealt with as seen fit by staff. We've provided a thread with all information gathered in one place and people are allowed to discuss the situation there.

I can understand the anger and absolutely, some users get carried away. However, our intention isn't to harass staff members indiscriminately and the actions of a few shouldn't define our investigation.

[AngelinARosebed]

Kestrad

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

Hmm...I'd have to go back and read it, I admit I was doing a quick scan over the thread while I was babysitting, so there's a chance I might have missed something. I thought it was in reply to someone saying that they didn't really care about what was going on though, they just wanted to pose a question of, what if the PM to the ticket owner was photoshopped. Which I don't believe it was (though I disagree entirely that it was hush money, but that's another thing altogether...), but I don't think they deserved the backlash they got for what they posted, either, as all they were doing was posting a random thought to try and give people something to think about.

If they did say that though, then that's not cool. Abusive language and/or behavior on anyone's part is uncalled for.

[Chibi Halo]

This has really gotten way out of hand. That thread and the ones it spawned were never designed to discuss this rationally but to incite this very behavior we're seeing. Posting links to accounts on other websites. Posting any personal activity about other users just to ruin their good name. Going around claiming another user is a "staff sockpuppet" all because of one perfectly normal transaction. It's no wonder a friend of mine is very worried about their first ever friend on Gaia. It's gone way past witch hunt and it's turned into a blood bath with users against users. People are saying they won't trust any very large transactions are legitimate and the users making them aren't being controlled by the staff. One person pretty much said they don't want any mods buying from them anymore because they now believe they're all controlled by the staff.

Telling people to flood the PM boxes of the staff and to do some of the things they've been saying is abuse. It doesn't matter who's behind the account you do no go searching for anything that can be used to abuse them on and off Gaia. My faith in the community is very damaged and people I thought were better than the torch bearing masses had to be removed from my friends list because of how they acted towards me due to all of this all because I'm more concerned about how this will damage the community. It's no longer a sane discussion it's become an all out war.

[Kestrad]

Calelith

Kestrad

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

"Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!"

There was at least one other time someone accused another of being a staff mule within the last few days.

Someone asked if the pictures were legit and not a Photoshop job and someone quoted them asking if they were a staff mule.

Regardless, that still doesn't excuse the accusation, even if it was meant as a "joke."

"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn."

Eh. Honestly? I think that's starting to become a perfectly valid question to ask, given how one of the mules apparently posted a passionate defense of staff in another thread while pretending to be a regular user. How far between that and actively trying to discredit disgruntled users with a mule? I'm not saying it's right to go about accusing people willy nilly, and certainly not just for dissenting, but it speaks volumes that there's just so little trust between users and staff that people would feel the need to ask.

[rimedragona]

Yuekazehime

I think it's good that these things are brought to light, but some people seem to think they can ask anything in any tone of voice (text) and deserve an answer... Asking things in an accusing and angry tone will often have the reverse effect and make people shut down.

I have definitely noticed this both here and real life. I work in customer service, so that's part and parcel of the job. If you want someone to respond positively, don't get up in their face, all that's going to do is make them defensive, and in most cases, they will dig their heels in and won't budge at all on their position. If you talk/act like you understand where they're coming from (even if you don't) compromises are more likely to happen. How did someone put it... it's important to show some magnanimity and some empathy toward those who don't agree, or don't yet agree. That's not to say they should get a free pass.

sup-qt

I think a good way to replace the AtA would be if there was somewhere we could ask questions, and then people have three votes (or a certain amount) to spend each day/week to vote up a question they want answered. Then the questions with the most votes will be answered by an admin.
Might be a politer way to get answers from staf..

That actually sounds like a good idea, like what they did with the cookies and the spring cleaning forum a while ago. People would get answers, but hopefully there would be less venom. A slight... distance to the questions, as opposed to asking and wanting an immediate answer. Also, it would put the pressure on the users a bit, because we'd be the ones voting it up... so if a question didn't get answered, the asker couldn't immediately accuse someone of ignoring them. I would think it would be easier to moderate, too.

[Kestrad]

AngelinARosebed

Kestrad

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

Hmm...I'd have to go back and read it, I admit I was doing a quick scan over the thread while I was babysitting, so there's a chance I might have missed something. I thought it was in reply to someone saying that they didn't really care about what was going on though, they just wanted to pose a question of, what if the PM to the ticket owner was photoshopped. Which I don't believe it was (though I disagree entirely that it was hush money, but that's another thing altogether...), but I don't think they deserved the backlash they got for what they posted, either, as all they were doing was posting a random thought to try and give people something to think about.

If they did say that though, then that's not cool. Abusive language and/or behavior on anyone's part is uncalled for.

You may be right - I think I might be getting two separate bits of the thread confused.

[Bibaxt]

Nothing quite justifies abusing someone. If you disagree with them, their actions, or their employers actions fine but as soon as you cross the line stop.

Onto spooooooooons!
How much is too abuse from users?
For me any actual abuse if the action calls for that word to define it, it needs to be stopped.

Where should the line be drawn as far as abusing staff?
Same as the above if you cross the line where it's gone from a disagreement to abuse.I understand passion but there are ways to show displeasure without being a turd.

Should the staff turn disable comments on their profiles to prevent abuse?
I believe it should be left to the individuals.The staff are people and know how much they can handle.

Should we post personal information of the staff?
No.NO.It's never ok, never going to be ok, and should never be done. These are real life people,users seem to forget that I'm guilty of just seeing them as cogs in the machine sometimes too, but they have families and lives and it's inappropriate.

All in all keep I think everyone would really benefit if they took to heart the saying "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

[Calelith]

Kestrad

Calelith

Kestrad

AngelinARosebed

I've actually seen someone accuse another person of being a staff's mule account.

I don't disagree with any of what you've said, but in this particular example if i remember correctly the person who was accused said something along the lines of "go ******** yourself" and nothing else, and most people seemed to interpret the accusation as a joke sweatdrop

"Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!"

There was at least one other time someone accused another of being a staff mule within the last few days.

Someone asked if the pictures were legit and not a Photoshop job and someone quoted them asking if they were a staff mule.

Regardless, that still doesn't excuse the accusation, even if it was meant as a "joke."

"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn."

Eh. Honestly? I think that's starting to become a perfectly valid question to ask, given how one of the mules apparently posted a passionate defense of staff in another thread while pretending to be a regular user. How far between that and actively trying to discredit disgruntled users with a mule? I'm not saying it's right to go about accusing people willy nilly, and certainly not just for dissenting, but it speaks volumes that there's just so little trust between users and staff that people would feel the need to ask.

"Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!"

What if someone is a staff mule?

That's never a valid question to ask. It's also not something we need to know. It's the reason they have mules to begin with. Hell it's probably a reason why several AVERAGE Gaians have mules. So they can post in peace without being harassed/pestered by everyone while they're online.

At the time of that post, they might've been a regular user. Uncle Kenny started off a regular user when the site first opened, then became a mod, and eventually became staff. How do you, or anyone else, know that at the time of some of those posts those users/mule accounts were staff?

I'm going to say my opinion here and you can agree or disagree if you want.

The trust issues are a product of Gaians themselves. They get/got too heavily invested in a site and when things started going south, in their opinion/view, they started to lash out negatively. The staff got questioned due to the lashing out and in response stopped posting/responding which many Gaians ended up taking offensively. So Gaians lashed out more. Now some of them are looking for reasons to distrust the staff so they can continue to say that the staff doesn't care or that the staff is screwing us over.

edited for proper sentence structure.

"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn."

[SuccuViv]

A bunch of people like to blow things out of proportion, and I'm not talking about the unhappy folks from the many threads about the staff mules, I'm talking about those users who'd rather not read anything that could possibly soil the perfect image they have of the site and it's staff.

I see many of the users in this thread pointing out at small isolated incidents as a reason to shut down all threads x_x; that's so ridiculous I just can't. Yes, some people are going overboard but just because you don't think it's a big deal to be messing with the marketplace (something that if there was a way to sell Gaia items legally for real money, like many Gaming sites allow would get Gaia in reaaally big legal trouble) it doesn't mean others aren't right to be mad and/or disappointed.

The staff is comprised of humans, and humans can be (and often are) corrupt, you (as in all the people I see that just wish to remain blind) shouldn't forget that, if you do, at least leave alone the people that won't, that's all I'm going to say on this because honestly? it's like trying to get through a steel wall :/

Edit: I should make clear I don't condone abuse, that should be handled by the mods and shunned by the users, I also don't condone the efforts of many to silence any kind of disatisfaction though, which is mostly what I see behind the "don't abuse!!1" mask.