Not Eating Meat as a Solution?

[Yoshpet]

HAGD

Yoshpet

I'm baffled by most moral vegetarians. It's often expressed as some extremely diluted form of Jainism, with a hundred exceptions. I have friends who won't eat meat, but wear leather shoes, buy down comforters, eat factory farmed eggs, and smash spiders on sight.

I'm not really sure how they rationalize eating fruits or veggies either. Those are living beings, or parts of them, but I guess it gets a pass if it can't scream when you kill it?

I like the idea of not hurting other creatures, but I find it inconsistent with life on Earth.

the perfect vegan is one who does not commit actions which cause more suffering than they alleviate. nobody is a perfect vegan, but we should all strive to be a perfect vegan and we should make changes in our lives whenever we find ourselves not to be perfect vegans. even a jain isnt perfect. they still step on bugs sometimes even if they dont mean to. honestly if a jain is to be perfect then he should just kill himself. but we dont do that. its about living while minimizing your impact. your friend may buy factory farmed eggs, but i would hope that if you told him the truth of the ethics of his actions, then he would stop the action. thats all a vegan asks of you.

fruits and veggies have no capacity to perceive your actions and so your actions to them are irrelevant. i make the assumption that ethics = taking actions which minimize suffering. since they cant suffer, they arent a part of my ethical consideration.

you may ask "how do you know they dont suffer?" the answer is im only as sure as science can be. i recognize im not 100% certain that plants dont feel pain and therefore itd be irresponsible of me to needlessly harm plants. but if harming a plant (which may potentially cause suffering to the plant) will prevent harm to a human (which we know for a fact causes suffering to the human) then it is reasonable to choose the one we are 100% sure can suffer.

What a silly worldview. My immune system automatically eradicates microbes. Guess I'll never be able to stop my murderous nature. Maybe I should just accept life for what it is instead of railing against "injustices" whose fundamental nature I can't even fully comprehend.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

HAGD

Riviera de la Mancha

HAGD

Riviera de la Mancha

HAGD

Suicidesoldier#1

It's not really a solution, and perhaps getting meat from a source you know of, such as nature, is better, or from certain places which raise their meat a certain way. Might be more expensive, and all it can really give you is the internal sanctification that you're not eating more cruelly raised animals.

what suffering-free slaughter system do you have in mind? with any killing system there WILL be suffering endured at some level. considering we can go vegan with little suffering on our part, why not? there is no serious endurance of suffering on our part to even consider the action as ethical. forcing ourselves upon a creature simply for our preference of taste can never be ethical. unless you go vegan, you are avoiding the solution and instead just using band aids

Your response is true only if you define "suffering" as 'feeling any pain at all whatsoever'.

would you say that it is ok to stub a cow's toe in order for you to choose hamburger over potato salad?

the answer is no. it is not ok to stub a cows toe just because you want a tastier dinner.

also, emotional trauma (cows arent stupid they may very well realize they are going to be slaughtered) and failed killings are only part of the problems for even a perfect slaughterhouse. it is inherently unethical to deny a unique being its right to grow as an entity even if no pain is endured it is still suffering


and furthermore might i ask, what are YOU doing? are you doing ANYTHING to see where your meat is coming from? i argue that you should

I don't know what you mean when you say "stubbing a cow's toe", so I can't really answer that.

I fail to see how it is "inherently" unethical to deny a unique being its right to grow. You just tossed that maxim out there without a basis to support it.

I do a few things - I set a minimum of one day out of the week where I don't eat meat at all. I also make it a point to purchase meat products which typically do not get purchased, like the organs from animals. This helps to ensure that most of the animal is used by creating a market incentive for my area butcher to keep and sell these parts. Finally, I adhere to the FDA portions for meat servings which compel me to both buy and consume less meat and replace it with more varied and substantial offerings of grain, veggies, etc. I also fork over the extra cash to buy responsibly when I purchase meat. This also encourages me to both make sure all meat I purchase is eaten, but that I supplement my intake with other foodstuffs.

i mean when you walk into a wall and hit your foot and your toe hurts... it was some example of a small amount of pain. i meant to say that even forcing a small amount of pain on an animal is unethical if you are able to eat things besides animals. (assuming unethical = acting contrary to the overall satisfaction of creatures)

your will is logically of no more weight than the will of another creature. to force your will upon another creature is to assume that your will is correct over the other creature's will. this is logically inconsistent and that is why it is "inherently" unethical.

If the stubbing serves some purpose or is otherwise accidental, I fail to see the ethical issue at all.

Wait... when did "will" enter into this conversation? Is this now a new definition of ethics for you?

Forcing will also assumes no level of correctness or incorrectness unless you think that the old 'might makes right' idea holds any weight. I have never argued such a thing. As mentioned, I don't even see an ethical issue at all in regards to killing and consuming something. Why you think forcing will makes something right or wrong then makes little sense.

[Riviera de la Mancha]

HAGD

Riviera de la Mancha

HAGD

Riviera de la Mancha

HAGD

Riviera de la Mancha

As I indicated to you in your other post, that assumes that "suffering" means any experience of any pain at all.

It also assumes that there is something wrong with animals feeling pain when they are going to be killed for consumption.

Neither of those assumptions I agree with. First, suffering typically connotes needless infliction of pain akin to torture. Second, I see no ethical issue in inflicting some measure of pain on something I am going to consume. I therefore see no cause to even think of ethics arising in the act of consumption.

I do however see ethical issues arising in production and distribution.

" I see no ethical issue in inflicting some measure of pain on something I am going to consume."

if ethics = minimizing overall suffering with your actions
and if you wont endure pain in not eating meat

then how is it "no ethical issue" to "inflicting some measure of pain on something i am going to consume"

our definitions of suffering are different it seems so im glad we cleared that up. my definition of suffering is perceiving displeasure (so even stubbing your toe has some amount of suffering)

That "if" is quite big.

I wholeheartedly disagree that ethics means to minimize overall suffering. Further, even if I did agree that was part of ethics, I fail to see how your definition does not still recognize that there are some areas where suffering can't be eliminated. This of course assumes that "suffering" means infliction of any pain at all.

in some situations suffering cant be eliminated and so there are no actions which can be taken to eliminate the suffering. therefore, it is not unethical to not eliminate the suffering... there is no contradiction in admitting that there is suffering which cant be fixed and also striving to fix all suffering possible.

what is ethics in your opinion?

I never claimed there to be a contradiction, so why you argued as if I did makes little to no sense.

Ethics is defined generally as moral principles which govern a person or group's behavior. Nothing more.

i assumed that you would bring it up because of some perceived inconsistency...

i know what ethics means lol i mean what do you think ought to guide our actions?

when i say ethics = taking actions which minimizes suffering i mean to say that we ought to act in a way which minimizes suffering and that is my ethics

Several principles make up my ethics, yet I only apply them where an ethical issue arises.

Again, I see no ethical issue in killing and consuming things. It is simply a part of life that must is done at some level or another in order for things to exist.

[ratgirl34]

HAGD

ratgirl34

I can't go vegan because I can't eat soy. Most people allergic to soy are also allergic to nuts, I do have a slight allergy to those but as long as I eat them in small quantities my body can handle them.

This means that should i choose to cut meat out from my diet I would have to go to great lengths to acquire all the amino acids required for my daily doses of complete protein. Due to where I live that means I would likely have to have such foods shipped directly to my home from sources besides the local shopping centers. Vegetarians struggle to find their foods here, I think a vegan would go broke trying to stay healthy.

Unless of course I started taking vitamins. Bottles and bottles of vitamins, most of which are heavily saturated with chemicals such as pesticides, herbicides and preservatives. None of which are good for anyone.

I'll stick to my meat. Preferably something I shot myself as it is better tasting and better for me than a cow that was pumped with hormones and steroids. After all, Bambi would eat me if given the chance. I think it evens out in the end.

like you seem to already be aware of, there are plenty of high-protein plant foods which are not soy based or nut based. flax seeds, oats, other non-soy beans, brocolli, etc will get you plenty. i dont know where you live, but if you have access to fresh veggies and grains then you have the resources to get sufficient amino acids.

you made an important point id like to address. "After all, Bambi would eat me if given the chance. I think it evens out in the end."

let me address this first with an analogy. if we know someone to be a psychopath (indicating that they would hurt you if they wanted) is it therefore ethical to actually hurt them?

ethics is the business of taking actions which minimizes overall suffering. the course of action which minimizes suffering is either A) lock up the psychopath and treat his condition or B) avoid the psychopath

now, justice is the business of giving what you received. from a justice point of view, then maybe its ok to kill bambi. justice is eye for an eye and that makes the whole world blind.

I can't have raw peas without the skin in my mouth puffing up and falling off. I miss fresh raw peas from the garden so much... That means I have to be cautious of pretty well all legumes. If they are cooked it's all good strangely enough. But cooking reduces their nutrient value, which means I need to eat more of them to get what I need. I live in Northern Canada, we have short growing seasons and the soil requires work to compensate for acidity. So it is impractical or extremely difficult for me to grow the right vegetables, and due to where I live it is expensive to be buying all these foods that come from far away. Just a few hundred miles North of me people are paying ten dollars for a liter of milk, it's not that bad for me but prices only go up. It's not impossible to be a vegan/vegetarian here but for my financial situation it is not practical.

I can not live on broccoli alone. That is an oversimplification of what you were saying, but for cost effectiveness that's about what it would boil down to for me.

I love animals, I have a horse and cats, a dog. I have owned pet rats on and off for years and I have had rabbits, and grew up with birds in the house (though I do have an unusual fear of small birds.) I would not be comfortable eating an animal that had been a pet. But if any of these animals were served to me on a plate I'd eat it as long as they had not been a pet before being cooked up and put on my plate. I'm not sure why I make that distinction, it's a part of me that just is. Like not eating a human baby or hurting another person unless I have to.

I don't like store bought meat, it's bland, flavorless and full of red food dye because for some reason people think meat is supposed to be red. Deer, bear, moose, spruce hen, goose... Those are all full of flavor and have minimal amounts of chemicals in their systems. These animals have lived the life they are meant to in the wild, and unless shot by some disrespectful a*****e with lousy aim they are dying a cleaner death than nature would usually dole out.

I love animals, but animals are not people. A deer is not a psychopath, they are born into and die in an environment where they are unlikely to die of old age. Most likely they will be hunted by a predator which will begin eating it while it is still alive. Or, they will become injured, and eaten by their own species due to becoming an easy source of protein.

I don't like store bought meat, so I very seldom buy it. That means that I'm not supporting factory farms as much as the next person. So in a way I'm supporting that cause regardless of whether or not I eat meat. And by making clean shots that kill my food instantly, they are not suffering the horrific death they would otherwise experience, minimizing suffering.

Food is not a case of justice, it's a case of survival. Human legal systems are not comparable to the consumption of meat.

And the Bambi comment was meat to be humorous in conjunction with the video. Which shows a full grown cow eating a baby chick, you can hear it peep for quite awhile as the cow chews. My dad grew up on a farm and can attest to the claim that this is not an uncommon occurrence, and it is part of why some farmers don't let their chickens run free around the property. Can you imagine what that must have been like for the chick? Being licked up and crushed repeatedly until you finally die. The animals I eat don't have to know what any of that is like.

[CrysisMoon]

If I lived farther in the country or much farther up north in Canada, I would take the option of hunting wild game over store bought meat in a heart beat. I think the biggest thing to try and fix, is the factory farming issue. Sure it is possible to live vegan, but realistically, the cost involved is fairly high. Especially if you are eating properly to make sure that you're getting all the nutrients your body needs. I can guarantee that a good chunk of people who are vegan, aren't eating properly. I guess my biggest issue is when vegetarians/vegans start trying to force their ideals on me. And in the worst ways possible. Calling me a murderer, soulless, horrible, ignorant, ect. People who sweat by peta, need a bit of a reality check. Peta isn't all sunshine and rainbows like they claim to be. They were caught throwing euthanized animals in the trash.

If given the option to continue eating meat or go vegan, I'd continue to eat meat, just as my pre-historic cousins did. What do people thing cave people did? They straight up hunted what they needed. I plan on learning how to hunt wild game, even though it will be the complete opposite of what I do at work. I'll be a walking contradiction.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

HAGD

Suicidesoldier#1

It's not really a solution, and perhaps getting meat from a source you know of, such as nature, is better, or from certain places which raise their meat a certain way. Might be more expensive, and all it can really give you is the internal sanctification that you're not eating more cruelly raised animals.

what suffering-free slaughter system do you have in mind? with any killing system there WILL be suffering endured at some level. considering we can go vegan with little suffering on our part, why not? there is no serious endurance of suffering on our part to even consider the action as ethical. forcing ourselves upon a creature simply for our preference of taste can never be ethical. unless you go vegan, you are avoiding the solution and instead just using band aids

I've never talked of a suffering free solution, just one that's not as cruel or is better. At some level, somebody is suffering to bring you food, be it a farmer, or an animal helping farm, or the pollution produced by it, or the deforestation to make land for agriculture, whatever. Something somewhere suffers. You kill off animals by destroying their natural habitat and putting a farm there, instead, and if you eat mostly vegetables grown without lots of added or synthetic materials, it's going to take up a LOT of naturally available land, instead of changing the environment, say a dry plains, with irrigation and fertilizer, and pesticides and whatnot.

A vegan diet can't give vitamin B12 [1][2][3], and has difficulty getting Vitamin D (a little bit in your diet is good, rather than getting it all from the sun), and in general is harder for most people to assimilate the nutrients in it. You'd need several pounds of broccoli to live off of Broccoli, several pounds of beans and different vegetables to get all the protein you need in a day, and that's just to reach the bare minimum, which you really want over that. You can get all the protein you need if you mix amino acids well (like brazil nuts + pinto beans) and eat somewhat exotic foods (soy, brazil nuts, etc.), but it's still much more difficult, doesn't take into account different allergies (nuts, soy, etc.) and take a lot more cellulose. The reason things like bean make you have so much gas is because your body has to process an enormous amount of waste material, or fiber and cellulose, which is basically just more stuff. It's hard on the digestion system, and with the generally low calorie, vitamin, and protein content in terms of volume, you have to eat a lot more of the same foods to get the same results.

You can try spreading it out over more time, eating foods lightly steamed to get the most nutrients out of them, but you still need to eat A LOT. One of the more important amino acids that's hard to get from plants is lysine, which is generally only found in meat; unlike Vitamin B12, it's not impossible to get, but it's very difficult. The drawbacks to not getting it are liver damage, kidney damage, and brain damage, usually irreversible. We take a look at iron from green vegetables, like lettuce, and first of all, there's not much in there (compared to it's raw size), and second it's a different type of iron. You need twice as much to compensate; sometimes, you can get all the vitamins you need, but not all the types. Finally, even if you can get all of the essential vitamins, your body still needs to transform those vitamins into other vitamins. You need a minimum of 2.1 grams of lysine daily, but, if you only get 8 amino acids throughout your day, instead of the near 20, your body has to work harder and consume more protein to make the other proteins from the base. Then there's conditionally essentially amino acids, which generally tend to be even harder to get, and help out when sick.


You can take lots of vitamin pills and eat lots of protein powder, but the body usually does not absorb those as well, or the same way, and it's generally better to get it from the primary source. You can get down on meat if you take a lot of vitamins and whatnot, but it's usually best not to completely remove it from your diet.

At best, you can be vegetarian, and drink milk and eat eggs. If you eat A LOT of eggs, and cheese/milk, you can more or less compensate for the lack of meat. Still, a little bit of meat thrown in is a good idea.

[Political Extremism]

90% of my diet is meat, like 8% is fruit, and the other 2% is vegetables. I can't change this, because for some reason my digestive system cannot handle almost any type of vegetable, and some fruits. Protein and fats are the only way I'd get my calories. Soy destroys me. Literally in bed for days as though I had food poisoning.

So I don't see how it is a solution, considering I'd likely die if you forced me to eat a vegetarian/vegan diet.

[Trashy Cinnabon]

HAGD

veganism requires a change in your way of thinking. it isnt about what you want, its about what we say everyone wants.

I note how I edited your post. Why is your personal opinion and view on what is "ethical" or "wrong" somehow more correct than that of anyone else? Yes, let's go against our very nature as omnivorous animals. After all, we are above all the other omnivorous animals, their meat-eating is beneath us.
Your comments make you seem less vegan and more an extremist with a superiority complex. Not all people who are vegan and do not share such a culty, "holier-than-thou" view. One of my irl acquaintances is vegan because she hates the taste and texture of anything that isn't fruit, almonds, or a very specific few vegetables and grains. Picky eater. And I've come across plenty of vegans who accept that eating animal flesh is, overall, a natural part of being human, even if it is not right for their person.

I'm omnivorous myself. I'll try anything at least twice to see if I like it, I'd even try human flesh, as we are meat as well.

[Exoth XIII]

HAGD

Exoth XIII

"Not eating meat" isn't a solution for me, at least. I like eating meat.

veganism requires a change in your way of thinking. it isnt about what you want, its about what everyone wants.

That's nice?
I don't actually care, though. I'm one of those oddities that barely feels peer pressure.
Besides, it seems to me that vegans are in the minority. So if we're to go by what "everyone wants," vegans really ought to be eating meat.

How'd we get to veganism, anyway? I thought this was a discussion about eating meat, not about dairy products and eggs. I mean, that's my whole breakfast right there, meat, eggs, and cheese.

[Trashy Cinnabon]

Exoth XIII

I mean, that's my whole breakfast right there, meat, eggs, and cheese.

[Texadar]

HAGD

plants have not been found to harbor pain reception. there are several (independently evolved!) rapid-movement plants and none of the prevailing hypothesis for the utility of the rapid movement uses pain as an explanation. some plants move to scare potential predators (the sleepy plant) and some move to catch prey (fly trap).

its important to think about the evolution behind these traits: how did they come about? surely, there is no benefit to a plant feeling pain if it cannot help its pain somehow. the trait never would be selected for unless locomotion comes first

No life on this earth sits down a dies to be food for another life-form

when attacked plants do everything they can to not die.

[Tackle and Tickle]

Give a good reason why I should care about animals suffering. When millions of humans in America itself are suffering from hunger as it is

[Exoth XIII]

Texadar

HAGD

plants have not been found to harbor pain reception. there are several (independently evolved!) rapid-movement plants and none of the prevailing hypothesis for the utility of the rapid movement uses pain as an explanation. some plants move to scare potential predators (the sleepy plant) and some move to catch prey (fly trap).

its important to think about the evolution behind these traits: how did they come about? surely, there is no benefit to a plant feeling pain if it cannot help its pain somehow. the trait never would be selected for unless locomotion comes first

No life on this earth sits down a dies to be food for another life-form

when attacked plants do everything they can to not die.

Some of them. Other plants will aim to out-reproduce the eating habits of local herbivores.

I don't see what any of that has do do with our diet, though. Animals feel pain, perhaps more when they're being eaten by other animals rather than humans. Just how survivable do you think the American domestic chicken would be in the wild?

I've said this before, I think the only American farm animal that would succeed, with reintroduction to the wild, would be the pig. Pigs are known for surviving, despite being delicious. Unfortunately, they're also known for being a blight on the land, eating dozens of endangered species without a care. (No really, they're the leading cause of endangerment of a few species of giant turtle, at the very least, in lands they were introduced to.)

[Lady Vizsla]

The only way to end factory farming would be to give those running slaughterhouses an alternative livelihood and for national legislation. But a lot of people would be upset because there are people who really love meat and refuse to give it up. rolleyes So it's akin to making smoking illegal. Would just spark outrage. Though it is a nice dream to hope for the salvation of farm animals.

[~Sweet_Darknesz~]

Education is the key. I think that the only way to have a huge change is if everyone gets educated on animal cruelty.

So basically:

1. Everyone gets taught.
2. No one buys from the crappy companies.
3. Crappy companies are forced to make a change (improve animal conditions etc) or continue having no customers.
4. Push for proper regulations etc. Yadah.

There is a website that exists where they visit different companies and check on how the animals are treated. They have a list of recommended companies on where it's okay to buy meat.

At the moment it's easier to help people understand where they should buy meat. Going vegan is much more difficult (the extra medication is quite expensive i.e tablets/vit etc not everyone will have time or the $$$ for it with the current market).