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 Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:12 pm
Alright, I admit that I have no qualms with early abortion. I also think that it seems rather funny to me that the government (mostly ruled by men) tries to put rules on abortion (totally ruled by women as it's her body). Biologically speaking, the early zygote (when sperm and egg meet) is not a human form. It's the equivalent of a mole as they are both a clump of cells with DNA within. Since pregnancy does not happen until later down the line (zygote:blastocyte: implamentation=pregnancy) and the embryo is only mostly human (such as an egg yolk is mostly chicken), how is it entirely wrong to have an abortion at this point. Yes I know the "I knew you in your mother's womb" argument, but if that is the case, does this mean that all aborted babies weren't known? Explain, and do it well.
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:19 pm
What is the unborn? Answer it and you answer the question of abortion. Now I digress, Abortion is wrong. it's a child. Once created it has it's own seperate DNA. Not the DNA of its mother, not the DNA of its father, it's own DNA. At week 5, her heart develops and begin to pump blood. 5 weeks, and the embryo's heart is working. And the babe's the size of a sesame seed, roughly. But his heart is already forming and pumping for the first time. In the womb, it kicks, naps, sucks it's thumb. When you look at the fetus, do you see a baby, or a mesh of tissue? The fetus doesn't look exactly like a newborn, skin's still transparent at 11 weeks, but is it fair to judge one's value and worth based on apperance? The fetus is smaller than a newborn, kinda like how Hillary Clinton is smaller than Shaq. Is she worth less than he because of her smaller stature? Would it be fair to kill her cause she's smaller? The birth canal that the fetus travels through when he's born is roughly 6 inches. How is the fetus not a human being before he travels that 6 inches, and is when he exists the canal? The fetus's environment is also diffrent than that of a newborn. But does it's environment make it less of a human? Am I worth more than a homeless person becuase I live in a nice house and they live on the street? Would it be fair to kill him because of his environment & let me live because of mine? I hear many say 'it her body, let her do what she wants.' So...the fetus is part of her bosy. That is what that statement is saying about the fetus, that's it's a part of it's mother's body. WEll then, I have news for that woman. She's a freak of nature. because if that is fact, then she has 4 eyes, 4 ears, 2 noses, 2 beating hearts, 2 SEPERATE DNA, 2 sets of sexual gentiala. And roughly 50% of the time she's a hermaphrodiate. (organism with both male & female reproductive organs) I do agree that in cases of rape & incest, the morning after pill should be implemented, and an abortion should be available if the victum wishes it. However, it should not be legal as a contreceptive. If you don't want the kid, give em up for adoption. tehre are plenty of couple that want a baby. Turn the child into the police, they'll take the baby and set it up for adoption. Don't kill the babe, what did they do? Again, what is the unborn? http://www.babycenter.com/timeline.html <- link to the site I used for help.
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:07 am
Wow, this argument is amazing. I'm very impressed, and if we had the ability to give you a prize I would. Of course, we don't at the moment, but maybe later. wink
Now my turn.
A) The unborn is exactly what it states which is, that which is not yet born. I think what you mean is human or equivalent thereof.
B) Roe v. Wade is the original winning case in favour of abortion. Roe v. Wade allows for an abortion only during the first trimester which is the time of development into a fetus. While I applaud your fantastic arguments at why the fetus has a right to live (which it does), the mother's choice is also similar to making the choice to end the life of a vegetable. A vegetable is a human mass of DNA which is without thought or ability to function on its own, often including breathing and attaining nurishment. The same is true for a fetus. Brain activity begins around the age of about 12 weeks (around 3 months which is what Roe v. Wade says is okay). While the fetus does not have a previous history of life so that the "s/he lived a good life so it's okay to pull the plug argument" is not really valid, the vegetable has absolutely no knowledge of this prior existence so that argument isn't really all that great for them either. With this in mind I am fully on board with the abortion in the first tri-mester as that is when the embryo is least likely to survive (miscarriage is much more rare in the 2nd and 3rd trimester) and is yet not really functioning on a human level, much the same way as a vegetable. If I were to become a vegetable, I want it known that I want the plug pulled. I just don't see being a vegetable a meaningful existence, much as the embryo is not yet at the stage of a meaningfull existence as it has no awareness. To me, embryo=not quite human but working on it; fetus=human/child.
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:25 am
OKay My previous mini essay thingy was an argument on how the fetus in question is a living organism (trech. term for all u scientic peps out there). This is my argument on how horrindus abortion is.
First of all, I forgot to mention how the fetus' nerves are 3 times as sensitive as ours. because they have yet to feel pain and what-not. Notice if you prod the fetus, they will move on their own accord, meaning they feel you touching them. And probably are less than ammussed. A vegetable doesn't feel like that.
Okay abortion can occur naturally or it can be induced. Induced abortion occurs a variety of ways, most are disgusting, ranging from chemically induced (morning after pill) to surgical removal. (vacuum abortion or partial birth. Which is now illegal!!! YAY!)
Morning after pill. I strongly agree with it being used in cases of rape or incest, because the woman didn't have a choice. She was victumized. But I just can't agree with it being used as regular contrecetion. Because you take this the morning after you had sex. Meaning the embryo has already formed. Take the regular pill instead. Prevent pregnancy, don't kill after you'ce conceived. (My favorite pro-life bumper sticker says: you chose when you conceived it's not talking about rape cases)
Suction-Aspiration, or vacuum abortion) In lamest terms, it's a prodcure where the the cervis of the uterus is dialated and a vacuum is pushed into the pregnant woman, and the fetus is violently sucked into the vacuum and ripped apart. Remeber, the fetus has senistive nerves, so it feels the prodcedure. This procedure is available from week 12- week 24. Another version of the vacuum abortion (sorry forget technical name for it) is where the doctor grabs the limbs of the fetus, using some sort of pillars, and wrenches them off the fetus and out of the woman. Imagine feeling your limbs being ripped rfom you piece by piece. Again, the fetus FEELS EVERY BIT of the procedure.
There are several abortion prodedures for third term pregnancy. The most horrendous is partical birth. Before the fetus goes through the birth canal, the doctor flips him/her so that they come out feet first. Just before the head comes out, The baby is stabbed in the back of the neck with an instrument similiar to pillars. (sorry forgot the name) The pillars are then opened, snapping the neck and killing the almost fully born fetus. Another 3rd term abortion is the decompressioning of the fetus' head. Another still involves an injection into the fetus that stops its heart & kills it that way.
Abortion hurts women. The various vacuum procedures can scar the woman's womb. That pillar version of the vacuum abortion I mentioned? What if the doctor left some parts in? The woman can also get an invection from the abortion. Some even find the event tramatizing and have nightmares about it.
Edit: (sorry accidently submited message before I finished)
Risks include: perforated uterus, bowels, or bladder. Septic shock, sterilty, & death (major rare)
I'm lazy & used Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Induced_abortion
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:18 pm
I personally believe that it should be restricted to an extent. That being the only times abortion be used is when its required such as the child being born sick, into extreme poverty, concived by rape, brought into hostile enviroment, etc...
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:20 pm
Shoot em up kid I personally believe that it should be restricted to an extent. That being the only times abortion be used is when its required such as the child being born sick, into extreme poverty, concived by rape, brought into hostile enviroment, etc... If the baby is sick enough the body aborts the baby narually in a miscarrage. (If the baby's a cyclops for ex. Seriously I saw one in the fetus exhibit in the Body exhibit when it past through here)
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Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:38 pm
Help! Seriously! I can't find a picture that will help my arguement that the fetus is a living baby! It's a picture that was on the cover of TIME Magazine, I have no idea when. Its a pic of a doctor preparing to stich up the womb of a pregnant woman (think about 5 months...) after performing a new surgury to reverse spinadiphida (bad spelling I know) on the unborn fetus. And the picture is of a arm stretching out from the womb to grab the doctors finger. The doctor tested the grip and strength of the fist that clung onto him, and found both very strong. The little boy is now somewhere between 6-8. Ugh, if anyone knows where I can find that pic, or better yet post it ehre for me I'd really appreciate it. I'm scouring TIME Magizine's website but i can't find it! crying
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:20 am
Sakyh Help! Seriously! I can't find a picture that will help my arguement that the fetus is a living baby! It's a picture that was on the cover of TIME Magazine, I have no idea when. Its a pic of a doctor preparing to stich up the womb of a pregnant woman (think about 5 months...) after performing a new surgury to reverse spinadiphida (bad spelling I know) on the unborn fetus. And the picture is of a arm stretching out from the womb to grab the doctors finger. The doctor tested the grip and strength of the fist that clung onto him, and found both very strong. The little boy is now somewhere between 6-8. Ugh, if anyone knows where I can find that pic, or better yet post it ehre for me I'd really appreciate it. I'm scouring TIME Magizine's website but i can't find it! crying dont worry about the pic eek u already convinced me
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:00 am
Sakyh The fetus doesn't look exactly like a newborn, skin's still transparent at 11 weeks, but is it fair to judge one's value and worth based on apperance? This is what my son looked like at 8 weeks:  No eyes, no nose, and only a very tiny bit of a mostly unfunctioning brain. Obviously I chose to keep this child, but consider the circumstances: I'm married to the father, we had the means to make sure both the baby and I would be properly taken care of, and I was able to carry a child without risk to my own life. Those are the things I think should be taken into consideration in abortion. Say you're raped, and end up pregnant. Would you seriously be willing to one day answer the question "Mommy, where is my Daddy?" If you put the child up for adoption, could you bear it if one day, they showed up on your doorstep and asked the same question? Say you have an illness like my friend's. Though there's a very small chance she could become pregnant, if she did, it would be 90% likely to be ectopic, which if NOT aborted, would kill her. What would even be the point in leaving her husband widowed, simply because it was "wrong" to abort, when in every sense, the law would be murdering one person in a really STUPID attempt to somehow save an embryo. I'm for selective abortion. I am NOT for people aborting their children because they're "too young" or they're just not ready for a baby. That's what adoption and contraception is for.
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:42 am
Is ecotopic where the fertilized egg (for lack of a better term) attaches itself to the philopian tube and tries to grow there? I know that's lethal and surgical abortion or soemthing has to be performed otherwise the woman will die. (Fetus cannot survive if that happens. period.)
But yeah, definatly in cases of rape, incest or fatality of the woman should adoption be legal. What percentage of aborion are those cases? Anyone know? I think a year or so ago abortion due to rape was about 2% of all abortions...
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Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:44 am
MercenaryKing Sakyh Help! Seriously! I can't find a picture that will help my arguement that the fetus is a living baby! It's a picture that was on the cover of TIME Magazine, I have no idea when. Its a pic of a doctor preparing to stich up the womb of a pregnant woman (think about 5 months...) after performing a new surgury to reverse spinadiphida (bad spelling I know) on the unborn fetus. And the picture is of a arm stretching out from the womb to grab the doctors finger. The doctor tested the grip and strength of the fist that clung onto him, and found both very strong. The little boy is now somewhere between 6-8. Ugh, if anyone knows where I can find that pic, or better yet post it ehre for me I'd really appreciate it. I'm scouring TIME Magizine's website but i can't find it! crying dont worry about the pic eek u already convinced me But it's a really cool pictuuurrreeeee
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:33 pm
here is my take on it. I'm pro choice, and the *main* reason I am pro choice is because if a woman doesnt want to carry a child, she will find a way to get rid of it anyway. legally or not. and if it was made illegal, she would find more dangerous ways of getting it done. in past centuries women have died trying to abort and unwanted pregnancy. women have been known to do it themselves.. with coathangers! or find some sadistic idiot who says he'll do it for a small fee. If people are going to do it anyway... and they WILL if they're desperate enough, let them go to a place where it can be done safely.
It's largely an issue of individual ethics anyway, not social ethics. it IS the womans body after all, it would be on her conscious and no one elses business. just like many other issues that are hot debate topics in this day and age.
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:20 pm
I think the fact that I said the first trimester was over looked. Most of the abortion options mentioned are 2-3rd trimester, and yes they are painful and scarring. But is not birth painful and scarring as well? The one where the woman is dilated and then vaccumed clear is a D&E and is again, farther down the line. I am also in full agreement with Lilraine. Also, the morning after pill will not work if a woman is on birth control. The morning after pill is essentially an overdose of birth control. If you are already on birth control, this will do nothing, plus it is dangerous to use regularly. Ectopic is indeed the word for which you are searching,and those pregnancies are extremely dangerous as are abdominal pregnancies.
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:34 pm
I don't think your opinion on first trimester abortion was overlooked, so much as other people were just stating their opinions. And as far as I know, women either use the morning after pill or the pill. They don't mix the two. The arguement for the use of the morning after pill (not in cases of rape or incest) is that the woman can just take the morning after she has sex, whereas the regular birth-control pill must be taken every day.
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:03 am
I'm not sure what you mean by D&E's being farther down the line... if you were referring to trimesters... trust me..D&E's are also done during the first trimester. and just so ya's know, I do believe that if a woman cannot decide to have an abortion within the first trimester, I DO feel that she should follow thru with the pregnancy. but I have no issues with first trimester abortions no matter the reason.
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