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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:44 am
Alright, I watched a movie about Quantum Physics today and felt like sharing what I've learned. The particular thing I wanted to share about it is my personal favorite of the Quantum Physical "laws". And that is the one of Superposition. But first, allow me to say this, there are two different sets of physical laws out there, the first and most obvious through observation is that of classical physics, Newton's laws of motion and such. While the Second is that which concerns not of the movenment of large objects of mass and how they move, but how things move at a molecular and atomic level....and even smaller. So for this sharing of infomation forget about Classical Physics for a few moments.
This is the Straight up definition of Superposition: While not under the Influence of Conscious Observation, a molecule, say an Electron, is Everywhere, and no where at once, and is not actually matter, but a wave function.
Alright, that probably doesn't make much sense right now. And I am very tired right now, so I'll let you guys ponder this until tomarrow...oh...well later in the day I should say, or at least by my watch. I will post the rest once my brain has recharged and can think coherently enough to string together words that will, even in a coherent grammatical manner, probably be confusing enough at first glance.
So for the time being before I get the full explanation up.
question Does this make any sense to you? arrow Does it Sound fun? Or at least interesting? arrow Is your Curiosity so great that you want me to type out the explanation at 1:37 in mountain time in the morning so that you can read it out during the present time you see it? mrgreen
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:48 am
So is this the molecular equivalent of "if a tree falls in the forest does it make any sound"? Conscious observation exerts enough influence to make something that is everywhere suddenly be only where it is observed? Am I even remotely close??? stressed
arrow Yes, it sounds interesting. The question will be whether or not I can comprehend it! gonk arrow And although I was up at that time in the morning, It would have been even less understood than now! sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:57 pm
1. What movie did you watch? If you say "What the *Bleep* Do We Know?", you deserved to be banned from this guild if you bought any of it.
2. You don't even sound like you know what a wave function is. Thus, the whole premise of your post rests on an invisible foundation. Perhaps you should try explaining so everyone else can get an idea and if you don't know, others can correct you.
3. While there are two sets of laws, you described them incorrectly. The first is classical mechanics (newton's) which deals with objects larger than atoms. Quantum mechanics is the second branch and deals with the sub atomic regime.
4. That's not what superposition says at all. The superposition principle states that particles can be thought of as a series of an infinate number of waves each with a different wavelength (ie, wave function) whose functions can be multiplied by the complex conjugate and integrated over all possible positions in order to find a probability density for locating the particle.
5. QM does not state that the particle is "everywhere". It has a most probable position arond which there is an ever decreasing probability that it will be located further from there. Think of a bell curve. It never truly hits 0 as it goes off to infinity, but it gets close enough that it's not worth considering very quickly.
6. When we make the observation, the particle has a discreet location from among the probable locations. At this point, the particle is a particle and no longer exists as a wave function (unless you want to sum your wave functions to produce a gamma function spike).
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:44 am
I lost you at Alright. 3nodding 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:48 pm
VoijaRisa 1. What movie did you watch? If you say "What the *Bleep* Do We Know?", you deserved to be banned from this guild if you bought any of it. 2. You don't even sound like you know what a wave function is. Thus, the whole premise of your post rests on an invisible foundation. Perhaps you should try explaining so everyone else can get an idea and if you don't know, others can correct you. 3. While there are two sets of laws, you described them incorrectly. The first is classical mechanics (newton's) which deals with objects larger than atoms. Quantum mechanics is the second branch and deals with the sub atomic regime. 4. That's not what superposition says at all. The superposition principle states that particles can be thought of as a series of an infinate number of waves each with a different wavelength (ie, wave function) whose functions can be multiplied by the complex conjugate and integrated over all possible positions in order to find a probability density for locating the particle. 5. QM does not state that the particle is "everywhere". It has a most probable position arond which there is an ever decreasing probability that it will be located further from there. Think of a bell curve. It never truly hits 0 as it goes off to infinity, but it gets close enough that it's not worth considering very quickly. 6. When we make the observation, the particle has a discreet location from among the probable locations. At this point, the particle is a particle and no longer exists as a wave function (unless you want to sum your wave functions to produce a gamma function spike). Well then thank you for the correction, but you could have been less rude about it. And my apologies for using the term "Everywhere" in such a loose manner. Yes I did Watch "what the bleep do we know?" Yes I was skeptical as to some parts, but the Superposition, and Entanglement parts appeared to be true by my understanding. Obviously this movie has a bad reputation that I was not aware of, sorry for not being informed of it earlier. And no, I don't know exactly what a Wave function is, I pictured it as being somewhat like multiple functions of Sine with different values for x on a 3-dimensional graph, in a sense at least. I came to that idea from the explanation of the "double slit" experiment with an electron. For which I was going to Explain later, along with the rest of the my explanation, but I was to tired to really bother at the time being, so could you have waited for me to have posted my explanation before correcting what I had not gotten the chance to explain? since I did infact say that I was going to post the information later. I'm sorry if that seemed to be a rude remark, but some patience to wait for my explanation would have been nice. So now, since apparently this movie is a load of backwardly spun, upside down crack, I shall disregard what I learned from it and ask you to Enlighten myself and the rest of the guild as to what you know exactly about Quantum physics, as I am Curious and don't want to be feed with incorrect information. Thank you.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 pm
I'll try to break quantum down as easily as I can, but that's really hard to do because QM doesn't really make much sense in an intuative way. What it really is, is a mathematical representation of nature, so unless you can comprehend the math, the whole thing is kinda pointless. But to really understand the math requires at the very least a course in differential equations and one in linear algebra. >.< I suppose the best way to start off is to talk about General Mechanics (GM). In this, we can describe a particle by its location and momentum. In GM these are large enough that they're both absolute values. But as you've already seemed to have garnered, a particle in QM isn't a fixed point. Matter, on subatomic scales, exists as both a particle and a wave at the same time. So how do you describe the position of something that's spread out like a wave? We want to do the same thing (know its position and momentum), but this is a bit trickier to do. To figure such things out, we start off with what's called the Schrodinger equation (loaded with calculus so I'm not going to bother posting it) which tells us about the total energy of a partice. One of the variables in this equation, called psi, is the wave function. If we solve for this value (which is where the differential equations and linear algebra comes in), we can then begin to know something about the particle because psi is a function that describes the position as a function of time. Unfortunately, going through all the math doesn't return a unique solution. It returns an infinate series of solutions that are, indeed sin and cos functions. But as you probably are aware, sin and cos functions just go on forever and ever. Thus, the answers make no sense; How can you have a particle that's everwhere in every direction? The answer is that you can't. That's where the superposition principle comes in. What it says, is that if we add up all the solutions (an infinate number of them, so we're going to be using calculus again), it will give a function that desribes the probability of finding the particle in space as a function of time. But even then, it's spread out like a bell curve. It has a most probable peak, and quickly goes to effectively 0% probability, but there's still a non-zero probability of finding that particle nearby but not at the most probable location. But again, the particle isn't "everywhere" like "What the Bleep Do We Know?" likes to pretend. It has a very narrow range of locations that it can be with any probability that's worth considering. For something electrons, there's a 95% probability of finding it within 7 x 10^-10m of that most probable location. For something the size of a car it's 10^-28m for the 95% confidence level. Since electrons are about that size (the 10^-10m), they can act like waves hitting eachother, but since cars are much larger than their wavlength, they don't act like waves when they hit. They crash. What the Bleep Do We Know pretends that this works on scales of large objects like baseketballs. What becomes even more interesting is when adding up all those functions doesn't produce one probable location, but a series of them. This is the reason that we have orbitals in atoms. The superposition of the wave functions of the protons and the electrons adds up in such a way that only certain positions are allowed and there's "gaps" between them. So what's the problem with "What the Bleep Do We Know?" It presents half truths and doesn't give a full picture. Why? Because it's not trying to teach science. It's trying to teach just enough that it can toss in the new age garbage about being able to influence where the particle ends up being detected with your thoughts. This is then the basis for the introduction to a cult headed by the spiritualist woman, JZ Knight, in the video. Many of the scientists who were interviewed for this movie have noted that their interviews were extensively cut so that the creators could present their falsehoods (most notably David Albert of Columbia University). It also presents some very bad science such as the Mahasari Effect (4000 people praying and crime "stopped") and the ice crystals that reflect emotions. Both are a perfect example of confirmation bias. They take the result and then find things to fit it against that will confirm their hypothesis, while rejecting all the others. So while there's bits of decent science in there, it's not enough to understand much of anything and the "rabbit hole" it takes you down is only one of deception and outright lies.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:22 pm
Hmmmm....Thank you for the link and the information....That movie now officially disgusts me, I'm rather glad that I sort of skipped around when watching it, I really only watched the parts that seemed like they would interest me. Thank you indeed. Ah, that makes more sense now, so then one more Question, in the movie, they reffered to the "double slit experiment." Did they portray that correctly? Or did they fiddle with that as well?
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:49 pm
It's been 3 years since I watched it so I can't remember what they said about the Double Slit Experiment so I'll just explain it to clarify incase they got it wrong.
The important thing about this experiment is that it can show an amazing amount of things about the wave properties of light. The first thing that it shows is that it's a wave at all. If light passes through one slit, you just get a blur that's brightest at the center and fades out exponentially from the center.
However, add the second one and you get a sin wave that is bounded by that same exponential decay. If that doesn't make sense, imagine the exponential decay and then fitting a sin curve underneath it that gets squished as the exponential curve goes to 0. That's what the graph of brightness as a function of distance from the center looks like. This is known as a diffraction pattern.
So what that tells us right there is that light behaves as a wave.
However, it was known from other experiments (namely the photoelectric effect, explained by Einstein which is what he got he Nobel Prize for, not relativity) that light is also a particle that comes in discreet packets called photons.
Thus, we could ask what would happen if, instead of letting a massive swarm of photons through the slit all at the same time, we only sent one photon through at a time.
Common sense should tell you that if only one's going through at a time, there's not another going through the other slit that it would interfere with to cause the diffraction pattern. So what we should see is something more like what we'd see if we only let light through one slit.
Yet as we look where each photon landed and get enough to make some conclusions, it becomes apparent that even one photon at a time still gives the diffraction pattern!
This reaffirms that, even as a particle, it still has wave properties and due to this "spread out nature" described by the wave function, the photon is actually going through both slits at the same time and is thus interfering with itself.
The same thing can be done with electrons or other light particles traveling fast enough.
So this, again, sounds like the particle is everywhere which is what I suspect the film tried to play it off as. But what I'm sure they didn't tell you is that if the slits become separated by more than the wavelength of the photon (or the DeBroglie wavelength for particles), the effect vanishes. This, again, shows that the particle is not "everywhere". It's "spread out" in a way that doesn't seem to make sense to humans who live on the macroscopic level, but the fuzziness is still a very localized effect.
And I apologize that I was rather harsh about the movie. The "ban yourself from this forum" wasn't meant to be taken seriously and only to reflect how horrible and misleading that film actually is. About the only thing I find more disgusting is Intelligent Design and Creationism, and then, only because it's suckered even more people with things that sound like good science but are really distortions and lies.
But I'm glad you're asking questions. I'm always happy to answer them. Science is amazingly interesting in that weird kinda way and I like to share it. ^_^
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:23 pm
Apology accepted, and thank you for answering my Questions, although I myself am Christian, but this isn't the place for that. mrgreen
Anywho, yes they failed to mention DeBroglie Wavelengths, they said the Wavefunction collapsed due to observation, not the distance between the slits(which makes so much more sense.) So then what about Entanglement, how a particle can be on the otherside of the Galaxy and still effect it's "Sister" particle. And so if assuming that statement is true, argh, I think I'm getting lost in my words. Uhm....If then a positron and an electron are created by the two same Gamma rays that have collided, then if I were to do something to the Electron, then would the Positron react to it as well? Or is that something else the Movie took out of context/made up.
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:31 am
I'm having horrible flashbacks to fall 2007. David Griffiths haunts my dreams...
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:35 am
tiki_boyX2 So then what about Entanglement, how a particle can be on the otherside of the Galaxy and still effect it's "Sister" particle. And so if assuming that statement is true, argh, I think I'm getting lost in my words. Uhm....If then a positron and an electron are created by the two same Gamma rays that have collided, then if I were to do something to the Electron, then would the Positron react to it as well? Or is that something else the Movie took out of context/made up. What entanglement is really about, is that if we have something that decays into two different particles (say, an electron and a positron, though that's unlikely), we don't know which was which until we observe them (that is, they're both indeterminate). Say we observe particle 1, and it's an electron. Then we KNOW the other is a positron instantly, even though it's farther away than we can observe (via light) in that instant. basically the problem of quantum entanglement is that it circumvents what we know about the speed of light and causality ... it makes information travel faster than the speed of light, which is sort of a no-no.
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:57 pm
The slit experiment I know what it is, Shall i Demonstrate it.. It would be really easy to draw but not to describe my friend showed me it, were going to start studying QM.
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:36 pm
wow...i acctually think there's something wrong with me
...i understood all that and it seems really simple o.0
the wave thing seems like common sense to me confused
please tell me im not insane rofl rofl
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