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Where would you rather have lived?
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The Spartan Dieneces

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:30 pm


Heres a question my Western Civ teacher asked our class: If give a choice would you have rather lived in Athens or Sparta, and why? (And if you want go ahead and add any other Greek city/state in the relevant time period)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:39 pm


My answer was instantly Sparta.

First off, I love the military environment. I thrive in the ridgedly structured environment (ironic considering my personality is they type you would totally not think would work well in that sort of environment... ie random abstract). So from purely that aspect, Sparta is exactly what I would create as my dream society ( I infact wrote a short story about that sort of thing for my "utopia" in high school... the teacher said it was "shallow" lol)

Beyond that, I could not have handled being a woman in Athens. The complete lack of rights would have smothered me. While I could not have been a warrior in Sparta (obviously I would have at least been allowed to exercise and train as the men did. Not to mention besides just that, the women were given more rights. They had a say in choosing their husband, some even held property (while yes a few Athenian women did, it was a significantly smaller portion) and for the most part the young married women held control of the families wealth since the men lived in the barracks until age 31. The women were educated to a certain degree. They were able to publically voice their opinions (which I do a lot). There are many other reasons but these are a few of the main ones.

The Spartan Dieneces


Anarchist Miracle

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:48 pm


Athens. I like literature, poetry, art, that sort of thing. It would be nice to be born and raised in Sparta, for the sheer manliness of it, but the culture is lacking.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:01 am


The Spartan Dieneces
My answer was instantly Sparta.

First off, I love the military environment. I thrive in the ridgedly structured environment (ironic considering my personality is they type you would totally not think would work well in that sort of environment... ie random abstract). So from purely that aspect, Sparta is exactly what I would create as my dream society ( I infact wrote a short story about that sort of thing for my "utopia" in high school... the teacher said it was "shallow" lol)

Beyond that, I could not have handled being a woman in Athens. The complete lack of rights would have smothered me. While I could not have been a warrior in Sparta (obviously I would have at least been allowed to exercise and train as the men did. Not to mention besides just that, the women were given more rights. They had a say in choosing their husband, some even held property (while yes a few Athenian women did, it was a significantly smaller portion) and for the most part the young married women held control of the families wealth since the men lived in the barracks until age 31. The women were educated to a certain degree. They were able to publically voice their opinions (which I do a lot). There are many other reasons but these are a few of the main ones.



What in the world would attract you to such a xenophobic society, before stating that you would much prefer Sparta to Athens, I must ask; have you ever read Lycurgus' reforms written by Plutarch? This would surely change your glorified ideologies of such a barbaric polis. Not to mention, if you were an imperfect specimen of a male... infanticide would have handled you properly.

Yes women acted as the paterfamilias within Spartan society, but only because most men would not make it home from battle.

Did you know that a Spartan boy would be left in the woods and encouraged to steal, to eat. If he was caught, he would be beaten?

Did you know that Spartan boys were encouraged to go out and hunt helots?

How can such inhumane acts be supported?

Rigid structure, as you say you thrive in, is not what Sparta is.

As for the lack of women's rights in Athens... you must realise the history is subjective. Historians only write history based on what they find from writings and what not. The society was patriarchal, yes, however, many of the plays suggest that women held much, MUCH more power than people seem to realise.

furthermore, the two polis are incomparable to one another.

Remember, most of our modern world has evolved from Athenian and Roman societies.

In media res
Vice Captain


The Spartan Dieneces

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:06 pm


Most societies at the time were xenophobic in their own way, some more than others.
And yes, I have in fact read Lycurgus' Reforms. And before you call me on inhumaness and idealized history, remember the same holds true for Athens. I know exactly how the Spartans were raised. But I have also studied Athens as well. Their lovely symposiums were not as great as contemporary history would like us to believe. I have heard many women express that they would have prefered to be one of the " courtesans" because many would believe they took part in the discussion blah blah. Yeah, not so much. My advisor studies the greek polis and they weren't so nice as previously believed. While they may start the evening with inteligent discussion, they often ended up drunken orgies where the servant boys and the flute-girls were raped. Not always, I am not naive enough to believe that, but it happened apparently quite often. (I have seen art on vases that support that, it was a wee bit graphic)
Yes the women may have had liminal influence in Athens, yet there is a reason they were always called white-armed. Its takes leaving the house to be anything other than a pasty white. They were prized for their weaving and household arts etc. I prefer to work out. While I apologize that I would rather live in a overtly brutal society. I see it as more honest. Sure they left their infants to die if they were deformed or weak, I see that hardly any different than abortion now. The two societies in history I study the most is the Spartans and the Celts. Yes they are barbaric, but I don't use that word as negatively as you. I realize most people do not agree with my opinions, I am fine with that. But please don't asume I do not know what I am talking about when I say I prefer Sparta to Athens. And while you say our society has evolved from Athens and Rome, realized our military is much more like Sparta than most people realize. And that is were I fit best in our society.
On another note, most of the plays that come to mind when you say that plays showed women had more power were considered comedies for precisely the reason they seemed to show women with power. Not to mention the women were not allowed to go see such plays. You say that the lack of women's rights in Athens is just a subjective piece of history, I disagree. I have found many things that convince me otherwise. Aristotle claims that "woman is a mutilated or incomplete man" and he therefore supposes women to have less soul than men. He says "the courage of a man is shown in commanding, of a woman in obeying." And to top is off, he says "silence is a women's glory." In the play Lysistrata (the first that comes to mind when you mentioned plays) has this line. "if once we let these women get any semblence of a start, before long they will be adept at every manly art." Wow, tell me that isn't a fear of women having power. Perhaps the biggest joke of all in Athens after the presentation of Lysistrata was that women could have conceived and organized such a bold plan for ending the Pelopennisian War.
Hesiod even spoke down upon women, "Don't let a woman, wiggling her behind and fluttering and coaxing take you in; all she wants is your barn: a woman is just a cheat."
Sparta may have been violent and brutal, even to their own. But they treated their women better than that. After all, as 300 said and was truly the thought, Spartan Women gave birth to real men (wow never thought I would quote THAT movie in a historical debate, but that part is historically based). Thats why they let women work out in the arenas, thats why they were given a fair portion of the food. Strong women gave birth to strong men.
I apologize for the length on my reply, I could go further on about women in Athens, we spent a great deal of time in my last course studying the position of women in Athens. I have a nice little essay here on just that subject which I drew upon for several on my examples just now. I know Sparta was not what most people would consider as a preferable place to live, but I consider it such. I know (to the same degree we can know anything in history) the conditions, but I also know (in the same regard) how Athens was. And I would have chosen Sparta. I would have also chosen the Celts over any society in that area, or the ancient German tribes over the Romans they fought. Thats just how I am.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:12 pm


I would live near Delphi and sell goats to travellers. 3nodding

Firstly, because it's an incredibly spiritual place (I was there in February, and if it seems spiritual now, it must have been a thousand times more so while the sanctuary was still operating.)
Secondly, because there was one hell of a market in the hospitality industry. Visitors arriving everyday needing goats and sheep and food and a place to sleep.. perfect place to make a living. (And you could really fleece people with the prices, pun intended.)

But no, I would not like to be a woman. In addition to the sexual inequality of ancient Greece (though it was probably better in the countryside), they might steal me to be the pythia when I get old. Eek.

incendere


CTFarnham
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:27 am


It depends on the time period, I suppose, though a woman's rights and abilities were very restricted all through ancient times. I voted for Corinth. It's nice and centrally located, you could get to Athens in a day, it was famous for bronze-work and pottery, and after Alexander, Corinth was the jewel in the crown of the Macedonian holdings in Greece.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:05 pm


The Spartan Dieneces
Heres a question my Western Civ teacher asked our class: If give a choice would you have rather lived in Athens or Sparta, and why? (And if you want go ahead and add any other Greek city/state in the relevant time period)


oh my greek civ professor asked us this back in my first year taking intro to Greek civ. I chose Sparta becasue as a woman Spartian women had more liberties than Athenian women as in Sparta they were trained in the aspects of war kind of. Their belief was that a strong woman produced stron babies so the woman wer allowed to participate in more activities. Where in Athens the womans role was in the house and they could not leave the home unless they were escourted by either their father or husband. the only time they were allowed out of the house was for the Thespmaphoria festival and other festivals that delt with womans rights.

Shelby Pierre-San

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Greek History and Culture

 
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