|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:01 pm
Kanon Vilente I just want to here others opinions on this question since i'm developing a theory. This question is merely part of my theory. And I would like to see other responses on this. " How do you prove that something does not exist? " Rather odd yes I know. Yet so far I have only seen one logical counter argument to this. It is a one of my repeat topics. I'm just adding it for the purpose of a discussion.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 5:05 pm
I've oft asked rather the inverse of this question. I generally ask how you can prove any existance. It's possible to hallucinate sights, sounds, feelings, ect. It's even become possible to produce a means by which to cause such hallucinations, so who's to say that the world that stands before you at this very moment is not simply an illusion? In a dream, an hour can pass like a day, or a day like an hour. Whose to say that you're even human? Who's to say that your entire life, you've been another creature entirely simply dreaming that you were experiencing this life?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:23 pm
It's not really possible to prove a negative. There is evidence, but proofs really only exist in the mathematical world.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:40 pm
I believe that this is a prime example of duality. If there is no definitive proof that something exists, there can be no definitive proof that said thing does not exist. All you have is probability.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:44 pm
EvilCherryPepsi I've oft asked rather the inverse of this question. I generally ask how you can prove any existance. It's possible to hallucinate sights, sounds, feelings, ect. It's even become possible to produce a means by which to cause such hallucinations, so who's to say that the world that stands before you at this very moment is not simply an illusion? In a dream, an hour can pass like a day, or a day like an hour. Whose to say that you're even human? Who's to say that your entire life, you've been another creature entirely simply dreaming that you were experiencing this life? Possible, but for purposes of objectivity (or, what we consider objectivity, nevermind that we have no real way of knowing) we have to draw a line. For example, the whole 'what if red isn't red?' question having to do with perception. Well, we don't know. All we can do is rely on the general consensus. What if there is no general consensus, and it's just us perceiving others from our place as the proverbial brain in the jar? Not much changes. What matters is that, for whatever reason, we are experiencing the life we experience. Whether this is objectively true or not is irrelevent, being that the subjective is what we operate in on a day to day basis. All the 'what ifs' of philosophy don't really matter.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:48 pm
I agree with some others who have posted on this forum, I do not think that anyone can prove a "non existence." I think that because no matter how many facts you have against something there will still be possibilities that you may never discover.
I personally believe the "theory" that the universe is so immense that there are endless amounts of situations, possibilities and multiple realities. For example; Today I wore blue-jeans, black sandals, and a black shirt. In another "possible situation" I could have worn blue-jeans, black sandals, a black shirt with a piece of lint on it (but the whole rest of my life would be the same as the one I have now.) The possibilities are endless.
OK lol now to get off of my little mini rant within the actual question. I believe that possibilities are endless, there is now way to dis-prove it. ^^
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:57 pm
Sheradin Sweet EvilCherryPepsi I've oft asked rather the inverse of this question. I generally ask how you can prove any existance. It's possible to hallucinate sights, sounds, feelings, ect. It's even become possible to produce a means by which to cause such hallucinations, so who's to say that the world that stands before you at this very moment is not simply an illusion? In a dream, an hour can pass like a day, or a day like an hour. Whose to say that you're even human? Who's to say that your entire life, you've been another creature entirely simply dreaming that you were experiencing this life? Possible, but for purposes of objectivity (or, what we consider objectivity, nevermind that we have no real way of knowing) we have to draw a line. For example, the whole 'what if red isn't red?' question having to do with perception. Well, we don't know. All we can do is rely on the general consensus. What if there is no general consensus, and it's just us perceiving others from our place as the proverbial brain in the jar? Not much changes. What matters is that, for whatever reason, we are experiencing the life we experience. Whether this is objectively true or not is irrelevent, being that the subjective is what we operate in on a day to day basis. All the 'what ifs' of philosophy don't really matter. Basically, the point I'm stabbing at is the fact that all reality and the way we percieve it is based on the general consensus of what is real, and what is now. However, a consensus is based on an ever changing opinion that is sparatic, and ultimately holds no revelance to anything true or false. Thus it can be stated that I'm typing on a real keyboard right now. I see it, I feel it, those around me percieve it as a keyboard, and therefore, I trust it is. The dream world, however, is not much different. Granted, it is controlable to a degree, but you can not control a dream you don't know you're having. The value of existance is souly based on your trust that the ever changing opinions of yourself and those around you are going to remain as solid fabrics from which to base things.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:59 pm
It's more than likely that we cannot actually grasp the concept of non-existence.
Also it is rather easy to prove something exist, unless you wish to use the concept of physical existence. Even so the concept of duality in here is basically like poking yourself in the eye. It is currently improbable to prove something does not exist. And in saying this you have already proved that you in fact do exist. Not unless you use Buddhist Philosophy.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:02 pm
Meh... I'm done debating it anyhow. Myself and a man named Micheal Knnapen debated this for hours on end back and forth for amusement when I was in high school. I've had this whole conversation too many times to go through it again.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:48 pm
As long as you can prove the existence of something who's existence is mutually exclusive to that of what you are trying to prove doesn't exist, you can have proof of that thing's nonexistence.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:04 pm
0mG, nice.
Existance is proven by feelings, touch, sence in our current world. Maybe later on we will be able to prove things that we today say are not existing, but they actually exist right in this moment. ~ Proofs of existance in mathematics can go into many dementions, each with its own taste and addition of color, thus making exitance different. Maybe these dimentions will go into so many complexes for the human eye, that they become like a dream, in which you have no limits of any thing, making everything of speed that is like or faster than the speed of light. ~ It all interwinds.
:]
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:43 pm
Who's to say that existance is merely something as simple as the fact that your heart beats when you're alive, or as complicated as the lobes in your brain?
I usually don't really think about existing except for when it's in the wee hours of the morning and I can't sleep. I often feel severed from my body, and looking in on my mind and I can find the ideas most prevailant easily, but then when I "come back" for lack of a better explaination, there's a sort of empty groove in my chest that I keep thinking of over and over, and I ask myself "Am I real?"
Sure, our nervous systems allow us to feel pain, and other sensory feelings related to touch-contact, and we see and hear, and our brains comprehend other's logic, but who's to say we're not all part of some dream? Maybe, we're not truly exhisting, but maybe someone is dreaming all of us on this planet and others, and just watching what happens through their dreams.
I myself have had dreams where the opposite of what I wanted to happen happened, or something completely unexpected happened, so this provides a sort of logical reasoning for my dream theory...but then again, can I really call it a theory? No, more of a whim or a thought I guess...and also, if we don't exhist, my logic shouldn't apply, or should it?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
Questionable Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:03 am
logicly prove something right that proves something else wrong
say you want to prove that wrong that i went to a bar last night, well i you can prove i was at home, then that proves i wasnt at the bar
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:02 pm
I like this question. It's a thinking question. I'm very pleased with this question.
Anyway. I'm not entirely sure. You can scientifically prove that a disease doesn't exist in a human body....but that's not proving that it doesn't exist period. I suppose that, by human nature, we assume that something is nonexistant based on whether it has been encountered by human eyes. Dinosaurs for example, are extict because there are no longer any species of them left on the planet, or at least none of them have been encountered.
The biggest existant/nonexistant debate is most likely on God. There isn't any real way to prove that he exists or doesn't. People can look at a 'miracle', or a significant event and give credit to God, but that isn't proof. People who don't belive in God are usually nonbelievers because they've seen no proof. People will not believe what they can't see.
Does anyone know where I'm getting at here?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:25 pm
EvilCherryPepsi Sheradin Sweet EvilCherryPepsi I've oft asked rather the inverse of this question. I generally ask how you can prove any existance. It's possible to hallucinate sights, sounds, feelings, ect. It's even become possible to produce a means by which to cause such hallucinations, so who's to say that the world that stands before you at this very moment is not simply an illusion? In a dream, an hour can pass like a day, or a day like an hour. Whose to say that you're even human? Who's to say that your entire life, you've been another creature entirely simply dreaming that you were experiencing this life? Possible, but for purposes of objectivity (or, what we consider objectivity, nevermind that we have no real way of knowing) we have to draw a line. For example, the whole 'what if red isn't red?' question having to do with perception. Well, we don't know. All we can do is rely on the general consensus. What if there is no general consensus, and it's just us perceiving others from our place as the proverbial brain in the jar? Not much changes. What matters is that, for whatever reason, we are experiencing the life we experience. Whether this is objectively true or not is irrelevent, being that the subjective is what we operate in on a day to day basis. All the 'what ifs' of philosophy don't really matter. Basically, the point I'm stabbing at is the fact that all reality and the way we percieve it is based on the general consensus of what is real, and what is now. However, a consensus is based on an ever changing opinion that is sparatic, and ultimately holds no revelance to anything true or false. Thus it can be stated that I'm typing on a real keyboard right now. I see it, I feel it, those around me percieve it as a keyboard, and therefore, I trust it is. The dream world, however, is not much different. Granted, it is controlable to a degree, but you can not control a dream you don't know you're having. The value of existance is souly based on your trust that the ever changing opinions of yourself and those around you are going to remain as solid fabrics from which to base things. Fair enough.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|