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[ 4 ] |
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[ 10 ] |
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 Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:30 pm
Is someone has already posted this question im sorry.
Here is my question:
If God wants humanity to go to heaven with Him then why dose He create some of us knowing that we will go to Hell?
An answer, pleese...
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:22 pm
I will give you two answers. The first being Christian, is simply that he gave us power of will when he created us, so whether we go to hell or not is up to us.
My other answer is my real opinion. You are not created by God, but are a product of our parents' genes which can mix into a plethora of options which will wire your brain.
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:54 pm
This is a good question. I have debated extensively on it. Not one Christian, including a couple priests, has given me an argument that wasn't full of holes to the point where they eventually gave up after I had torn the argument apart.
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:22 pm
ADL pretty much said it in the first part of his answer. The decision is up to us. You already know what you have to do in order to go to Heaven; the question now is: do you want to do it?
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 12:20 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly ADL pretty much said it in the first part of his answer. The decision is up to us. You already know what you have to do in order to go to Heaven; the question now is: do you want to do it? That argument is flawed; God creates the environment and genes that make up our personality and therefore the decisions we make.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:21 pm
Yes, and probability already predetermines the chances of you getting a certain hand in poker. The strategy you use to win is still up to you. You do the best with what you've got. Free will.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:33 pm
Let me see if I can remember how to explan this. As someone stated God is all knowing, and he already know who is going to fall short of grace, the free will is for us to try and follow the Lord. God can change us, if we try to follow, but it is HIS will not ours. Excupting that you are a Atom in the bigger pictures might help.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:29 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Yes, and probability already predetermines the chances of you getting a certain hand in poker. The strategy you use to win is still up to you. You do the best with what you've got. Free will. I fail to understand the analogy. Poker is a game of chance. God, in choosing both the genes and the environment, the two factors which completely and utterly determine your personality and the choices you with make, has effectively abolished this "free will" which you speak of. Saying we have free will because we make decisions is like saying my computer has free will simply because it runs programs and interacts processes that I installed on it.
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:34 pm
HavanAnna Let me see if I can remember how to explan this. As someone stated God is all knowing, and he already know who is going to fall short of grace, the free will is for us to try and follow the Lord. God can change us, if we try to follow, but it is HIS will not ours. That doesn't answer the question. Quote: Excupting that you are a Atom in the bigger pictures might help. I honestly cannot figure out what you're trying to say. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:18 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly ADL pretty much said it in the first part of his answer. The decision is up to us. You already know what you have to do in order to go to Heaven; the question now is: do you want to do it? I see what you are tring to say, but God still makes us knowing full well that some of us will not use our free will to go to Heaven. I know that He wants us to make our own choises. But it still dosnt make full sence to me...
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:11 pm
Lethkhar Fushigi na Butterfly Yes, and probability already predetermines the chances of you getting a certain hand in poker. The strategy you use to win is still up to you. You do the best with what you've got. Free will. I fail to understand the analogy. Poker is a game of chance. God, in choosing both the genes and the environment, the two factors which completely and utterly determine your personality and the choices you with make, has effectively abolished this "free will" which you speak of. Saying we have free will because we make decisions is like saying my computer has free will simply because it runs programs and interacts processes that I installed on it.
So my attempted point with the poker analogy was that there are only so many things you can be dealt, and chance and probability pretty much eliminate "free will" (how much choice do you really have in the matter when you're dealt a good or bad hand in poker?). Just because we're working from a set starting point that God put us in does not mean we don't have free will. A schizophrenic may kill someone because voices in his head told him to do it, but that doesn't mean he never had the choice not to.
Do you see what I'm trying to say? Not having free will really isn't not having free will.
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:48 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar Fushigi na Butterfly Yes, and probability already predetermines the chances of you getting a certain hand in poker. The strategy you use to win is still up to you. You do the best with what you've got. Free will. I fail to understand the analogy. Poker is a game of chance. God, in choosing both the genes and the environment, the two factors which completely and utterly determine your personality and the choices you with make, has effectively abolished this "free will" which you speak of. Saying we have free will because we make decisions is like saying my computer has free will simply because it runs programs and interacts processes that I installed on it. Not at all. In fact, most of what computers do is completely automatic. Press ctrl + alt + delete sometime and press the "processes" tab. That's a lot of things the computer does on its own, isn't it? Quote: God presses the power button as soon as He gives us a soul and from then on the choice we make are our own, within the parameters of the things He's equipped us with. Computers can't make decisions unless you pre-program it to do so. Even the robots that play chess follow a specific program, one that allows them to "think ahead" and "choose" options for different scenarios. Humans can make decisions based on past experiences (this is called learning); computers can't, unless you specifically tell them to. Ah, but who was ultimately responsible for those past experiences which we make our decisions based on? God. God has "pre-programmed" us by creating the environment in which we learn, much like I can write a program for my computer to store in its memory until the process is needed again. Quote: So my attempted point with the poker analogy was that there are only so many things you can be dealt, and chance and probability pretty much eliminate "free will" (how much choice do you really have in the matter when you're dealt a good or bad hand in poker?). Just because we're working from a set starting point that God put us in does not mean we don't have free will. A schizophrenic may kill someone because voices in his head told him to do it, but that doesn't mean he never had the choice not to. I resent that comment on schizophrenics. The majority of them are not killers. Now, I don't know much about the condition, but surely you must admit that it comes from a combination of genes and past experiences, both of which are determined by God, which eventually develop into an illness? It's not like someone just magically gets schizophrenia. There's a cause for everything, and all causes are ultimately determined by God.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:34 pm
Lethkhar Not at all. In fact, most of what computers do is completely automatic. Press ctrl + alt + delete sometime and press the "processes" tab. That's a lot of things the computer does on its own, isn't it? Lethkhar Ah, but who was ultimately responsible for those past experiences which we make our decisions based on? God. God has "pre-programmed" us by creating the environment in which we learn, much like I can write a program for my computer to store in its memory until the process is needed again. Lethkhar I resent that comment on schizophrenics. The majority of them are not killers. Now, I don't know much about the condition, but surely you must admit that it comes from a combination of genes and past experiences, both of which are determined by God, which eventually develop into an illness? It's not like someone just magically gets schizophrenia. There's a cause for everything, and all causes are ultimately determined by God.
Schizophrenia is caused by a number of things, but nothing has been pinpointed specifically. Researchers do know that it has something to do with influences during fetal development or trauma to the brain in very early childhood that disrupts the normal development of the brain. This leads to larger ventricles and an increased amount of dopamine, which causes the positive symptoms most commonly attributed to schizophrenia (like delusions, paranoia, and hallucinations). All of these symptoms can be very strong and hard to resist, especially if you have voices telling you to kill a person or else the government will kill you. However, they do still have the choice to kill the person or not. They have the choice to seek help, to overcome their circumstances.
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 1:02 am
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar Not at all. In fact, most of what computers do is completely automatic. Press ctrl + alt + delete sometime and press the "processes" tab. That's a lot of things the computer does on its own, isn't it? And do you conciously think about every beat of your heart? No, your sub-concious takes care of that for you. You could say we're "pre-programmed" to run our bodily functions. This all ocurrs in the womb. Our thoughts are determined by experience. We are "pre-programmed" to think them. If a person had never sensed anything but a white room their entire life, then would not be able to comprehend anything outside of that white room. You may say we have "imagination", but no one is truly original. Every thought or idea is based on something in that person's experience. Doing something "original" is really just taking something "unoriginal" and distorting it. Quote: Lethkhar Ah, but who was ultimately responsible for those past experiences which we make our decisions based on? God. God has "pre-programmed" us by creating the environment in which we learn, much like I can write a program for my computer to store in its memory until the process is needed again. Sure he does. What determines our reactions? Our personality. What determines our personality? A combination of our genes and our past experiences. What determines our genes and our past experiences? God. Quote: Lethkhar I resent that comment on schizophrenics. The majority of them are not killers. Now, I don't know much about the condition, but surely you must admit that it comes from a combination of genes and past experiences, both of which are determined by God, which eventually develop into an illness? It's not like someone just magically gets schizophrenia. There's a cause for everything, and all causes are ultimately determined by God.
Schizophrenia is caused by a number of things, but nothing has been pinpointed specifically. Researchers do know that it has something to do with influences during fetal development or trauma to the brain in very early childhood that disrupts the normal development of the brain. This leads to larger ventricles and an increased amount of dopamine, which causes the positive symptoms most commonly attributed to schizophrenia (like delusions, paranoia, and hallucinations). All of these symptoms can be very strong and hard to resist, especially if you have voices telling you to kill a person or else the government will kill you. However, they do still have the choice to kill the person or not. They have the choice to seek help, to overcome their circumstances. Ok. Once again, God is completely in charge. God is the one who was ultimately responsible for whatever traumatized the child. God is ultimately responsible for the decision they make, since He is ultimately responsible for their personality.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 12:44 pm
Lethkhar And do you conciously think about every beat of your heart? No, your sub-concious takes care of that for you. You could say we're "pre-programmed" to run our bodily functions. This all ocurrs in the womb. Lethkhar Sure he does. What determines our reactions? Our personality. What determines our personality? A combination of our genes and our past experiences. What determines our genes and our past experiences? God. Lethkhar Once again, God is completely in charge. God is the one who was ultimately responsible for whatever traumatized the child. God is ultimately responsible for the decision they make, since He is ultimately responsible for their personality.
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