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I was browsing the PLG as I like to do sometimes when bored and came across a thread on "Bodily Integrity"

Wondering if someone actually really truly did not understand the argument and wanted to know, I sent her a PM. This is the following exchange in full:



I would have gladly done my best to explain the concept of BD and how it permits abortion. Her response made it painfully clear - that thread was made only to invite insult upon pro-choice advocates and in no way had any intention of promoting any actual understanding or any hope of furthering their own views in the abortion debate through such understanding.

I am somewhat disappointed that she took this opportunity for honest and civil dialogue and decided to instead resort to insults when I sincerely wanted to try to promote understanding. I suppose I was just foolish to hope a pro-lifer out there had some sincere longing to actually understand the views of the other side.

Even if in the end they ultimately disagree with what the argument has to say, it helps to have an accurate understanding of the argument - when you do you won't be so foolish as to make strawmen such as, "when someone talks the sound vibrates your eardrum, violating your body, hence you can kill them."

The Spoons:
How should we as pro-choice advocates positively respond to such instances of willful ignorance? That is how can we ensure a woman's right to abortion remains intact when those in the pro-life movement seem so willing to ignore everything we say or represent it so terribly inaccurately (or refuse to enter discussion at all)?

How can we reach out to them to provide, at the very least, accurate information when the response to a sincere effort at civil discussion can be so violent?

Do any of you have any other stories of pro-lifers or pro-choicers where, when offered information (and actually even given it) they have refused, denied its validity, and decided to continue believing their factually false claims that you would like to share (Example: fetuses feel at 2 weeks even though they have no nerves at all yet! Fetuses aren't alive!)?

EDIT By Veled: Sorry, T-Chan, had to remove the user's name for ya.

If someone's going to be willfully ignorant, there's not much you can do about it, be it positive or negative. I would say the positive thing is to not overreact about it, and possibly address it again with a statement like "you can't fight something you don't understand". They ARE for ending abortion, but if they can't understand why people support abortion rights, they'll never be able to truly accomplish their goal.* Granted, it seems many of them aren't so much for banning abortion as they are for keeping women in their "place".

Of course, they would never really be able to accomplish their goal of lowering abortions by banning them, because it doesn't work and puts more people's lives and well-beings in danger.

* I am fully aware of their access to legislating bullshit, however I know that if they don't understand why abortion is supported they'll never be able to completely stop it. And like I said, even if they understand it, they won't be able to stop it anyway, because they'll either convert or not have any sort of real facts to back them up.



We can't. If you try to give someone something to help them or a situation, and they snarl at you instead of accepting it, there's not much you can do. It's their decision, and you can't alter the way people act so easily.



During my year or so debating in the abortion thread in ED, certainly. From both sides, though mostly from the pro-life side. Pro-choicers would sidle in and insist that the fetus wasn't alive, and when countered with sources saying that a fetus was alive and why, they would bring up that list of things something needs to be capable of to be "alive".

Pro-lifers would do one of three things to deny accurate information: (1) They would ignore it; (2) They would try to refute it by saying "it's not true" or "it's a pro-choice site" (even though it wasn't) or; (3) reply with an obviously pro-life website to "back up" their claims. I can't remember any specific cases, just groups of recurring events.

Don't mind quote, she's just some pro-life n00b who is just excited to learn more about the "benefits" of being pro-life and the evils of the pro-choicers, not at all interested in stretching her mind at this current point in time, but solely shivering in need of the validity that being in a group offers. All n00bs go through that stage. To her credit, she is an articulate n00b for being one, most n00bs sputter moronic, stereotypical one-liner responses that are rife with grammatical errors.

After a long time of participation in pro-life guild, they turn into quote.

EDIT by Veled: Just covering bases here . . .

With such people, I doubt that there is much anyone can do to convince them otherwise -- they are so tied to their stance that they are unwilling to consider information that runs counter to their values.

I do tend to hope that many (most?) of these people are still fairly young and will eventually grow out of it as they mature into more rational adults.



I tend to see the spit and vinegar as a natural reflex made in response to posts they recognize as valid that also run counter to their beliefs. And, though they won't admit it, they tend to recognize when their arguments have been proven wrong. As such, I simply smile and continue posting my resources for all to read.

Hey guys, sorry to spoil the fun . . .

One of the PLG mod's caught wind of this thread and was upset at the 'invasion of privacy' incurred upon one of their members here. All calls of irony aside, since they wanted the entirety of the 'offensive material' taken down, I thought about it for a minute . . .

And ever-so-thoughtfully plucked out the usernames, just so they couldn't claim we were targeting that specific user. It's not like we can't just go see the thread for ourselves and find out who said what if we really wanted to.

Please use the tastefully thoughtful replacement names I've sprinkled liberally throughout the rest of this thread. I'm sure you'll find them satisfactory.

It's cool Veled, I'm actually amused at the l33t editing skills.

I could careless what the hell the whiny guild (no names mentioned, remember? :wink) does to themselves, it's not a part of me I say. If I wanted to debate with whiny guild members, I would have posted in the abortion ED thread, not hang out at pro-choice guild.

However, when I occasionally find myself visiting whiny guild, I see the whiny guild focusing most of their rants and arguments concerning pro-choice guild personal guild discussion, as opposed to creating their own topics and discussing their own issues.

...It's as if whiny guild's survival is made necessary by the pro-choice guild's existence.

It's no wonder that in due time, a pro-choicer will EVENTUALLY make a topic ranting about whiny guild. It's no wonder, that as much viewing that the whiny guild engages in, that they see this topic and react the very next day as opposed to whining about it a week or a month later. If whiny guild saw through the smoke and mirrors, whiny guild would understand that they've created a monster.

Also, a whiny stalker boy joins the guild in reaction to knowing that I participate in pro-choice guild, and mentions my name there with no one else in the guild equally blushing in reaction to such "invasion of privacy". Not that it's a super big deal or anything to me because unlike whiny guild, I value more freedom of speech than they do. But, it's a little hypocritical which is also not much surprising to me, knowing full well that the major demographic consists of male, fundie "christians".

cheese_whine wink

Further editing after consultation with several mods.

I still would like to see the people in the PLG put their money where their mouth is, in a figurative sense. They say they can refute us, so why don't they come out of their damn guild and do it?

I have extended this challenge many, many times. It seems to always go ignored. To any member of the PLG reading, take this back to your guild: Quit hiding and bitching in your own guild, saying you can refute us. If you can, then why don't you do it if you're so sure? Because otherwise, then it's just all talk and no substance.