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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:12 pm
The recent holiday Beltane got me thinking about the subject. For any of you who have read the Book of Enoch, and even for some who haven't, you know what I'm talking about.
The union of angels and humans... why is it always demonized? Supposedly, the angels fell for a second time from heaven because they came to earth to have sex with human women. The first fall was Lucifer's pride, the second was for lust, alledgedly. For their decisions, the angels were delivered a very harsh sentence involving lots of torture and wandering around lost in the darkness, forever banished from the light of heaven. Atleast this is what the Book of Enoch says.
Once I was wandering around on the internet and I found a christian site that had put up what seemed to be an FAQ on angels. Someone asked them what to do if an angel appeared to them and tried to instigate anything sexual. The response was that it must be a demon, because no angel will ever proposition anyone. But why is this a rule?
Perhaps it's the church's quest to demonize sex of any kind. And if sex is evil, there is no way such a pious creature would have anything to do with it. It could be a way of estranging us even more from God and his holy servants. After all, we are supposed to feel like we are slime, ever since Adam took the bite out of the apple. I suppose it could be many things.
Angels are a strange and controversial creature indeed. There are indications of winged spirits or servants of the almighty in just about every culture from every point in history. These enigmatic beings have had many names and many titles... angels, gods, demons, spirits. In just about every mythos and culture there is a strong warrior spirit; in Christianity his name just happens to be Michael. You can find stories and myths with them involved almost anywhere, and I have always found that they are doing one or another of two very opposite things: protecting or attacking. All of us have seen all of the guardian angel necklaces, lapelle pins, charms... we have all seen these around. But of course, we've also seen movies like "The Prophecy". Some of us have read some Enochian material, which claims that the angels want nothing with us but to see us killed. From what I've learned, angels are always walking a very thin line. They are redeemers, or they are destroyers. To me, our relationship with them reminds me very much of identical twins, a position laced with either passionate care or bitter envy. It is the relationship and competition that comes from two things that are equals to one another. Perhaps exact equals.
You could be thinking that I'm crazy right now, but I do believe that angels and humans are equals, just like yin and yang. I think a quote from a book of mine (The Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires) says it best for me:
"There is also a biblical precedent which grants the human a great amount of authority on the spiritual plane. In Genesis, the text affirms that Adam was fashioned in the divine image of the creator. This is not exactly a reference to the physical appearance of the human animal, so much as to his spiritual nature. We possess the Logos, which incorporates self-awareness, free will, and the essential power to create. This was (and is) a major focus within the Judaic mysticism which gave rise to the grimoires. The formula for the creation of the golem, for example, is largely a reenactment of Yahweh's fashioning of Adam in Genesis 2. It rests upon the concept that man is entitled to create life in the same manner as God himself. Herein lies the reasoning behind the legendary angelic envy of mankind's position in the cosmic scheme of things. Humans and other animals properly fall in the second shamanic world - just above the infernal realm but below the celestial. Therefore, the angelic hosts occupy a higher Darwinian position and enjoy a general authority over us (refer to the Gnostic archons). However, by breathing the breath of life into our physical forms, the creator impressed upon us an ineffable royal seal granting us our authority and earthly dominion. An angel might possess raw power far beyond human capacity, but he is forever constrained to worship us as the living image of his sovereign. For the magickian, this calls for a curious mixture of authority and humility in dealing with the angels - an art known as 'diplomacy'."
The passage may be a little extreme in parts, but it might serve to get my point across. While angels are extremely powerful, they are lacking something that we have. And we as humans, are obviously lacking their power. In this way, I consider the two to be equal and in many ways opposite, making up for one anothers abilities and inabilities. In John Dee's manuscripts where he claims to have spoken to the archangels themselves, the angels tell him that the powerful magick in which the watchtowers are opened allowing the angels passage out into our world cannot be done without a human opening them himself. The angels cannot open their own gates, they cannot call themselves out.
So if you can follow me, regardless of your beliefs, let's banish away the thought of the angels being superior for a moment. Let us assume that our good points and shortcomings even us both out to being equal to one another, us the children of the earth, and they the children of the sky. A book of mine once put it into a more pyschological view for us, saying that angels are the divine extensions of ourselves, representing our highest form of consciousness, our absolute enlightenment. This leads right into my next book passage, taken from the infamous Book of Abramelin. The book details a complex and dedicated ritual of purification and preparation to the final day when the human is united with their own "guardian angel", who then teaches them everything from that point on. In Lon Milo Duquette's forward, he puts it best:
"The exact nature of the Holy Guardian Angel defies proper definition. The book makes it clear, however, it is a divine entity uniquely linked to each individual - in essence the magician's personal spiritual soul mate. Another way of looking at this relationship would be for us to consider the magician as being a spiritually incomplete human unit until united with the Holy Guadian Angel - and to consider the Holy Guardian Angel as being a spiritually incomplete angelic unit until it has become one with the magician."
Does this ring any bells? Everyone has seen those old ladies that walk around with angel pins on their dresses. Everyone knows the story behind these angels. They are the person's guardian angel, the angel that is specifically theirs. Doesn't it seem that the point in Abramelin mirrors this idea strongly?
And now, think of Beltane. It is the ritual celebrating the divine union of the Goddess and the God. At this point in the cyclic mythology of the Pagan Wheel of the Year, the Goddess and God have finally had their marriage and Beltane is all about the celebration of the consummation. I'd like to point out that the Goddess is naturally always representative of the earth (Mother Nature) and the God, her partner, is a solar or sky deity. So as we are the children of the earth, and the angels could well be assumed the children of the sky, does this make us undeniably linked to one another in the same ways? If the Earth and the Universe are the Queen and the King, does that make us the princesses and princes? Does it make us sisters and brothers? Enemies and the best of friends?
If humans are whole working units all on their own, and the angel is truly like the highest form of ourselves, what would it mean if we were united with the guardian angel? An angel having immense power, a human having the ability to employ that power. That sounds like a well-matched duo that would be a mighty thing to behold. Could that the very reason why the idea is abolished as though it is the greatest of sins? Could that pair be "too powerful" for some? Once a person has touched hands with their own elightenment, that person may very well never be blinded by any lie, hypocrisy, or trickery again.
I already know how I feel about the subject. And I know this has been long and drawn out, but I wanted to make some other people ask themselves, "Could there be more to this?". Although it is written that it is a sin and a great evil for angels and humans to ever be united in any way, sexual or not, I see exactly the opposite story as I look at the world around me. What is the earth without the sky? People spend their whole lives looking for the thing that will make us complete. Could we just not be looking up enough?
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:54 pm
This is utterly sexy, and /exactly/ the kind of thing the guild needs. A nice, well thought out, intellectual idea put forward in an eloquent and scholarly fashion. Three cheers, princess. |3
The thing that this makes me think of most is the Thelemic/Hermetic idea of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel (as you mentioned); pretty much trying to unite yourself with your divine self and whatnot. Personally, I'm not big on cosmic enlightenment and what have you, but for those looking for spiritual advancement it's certainly a /definite/ must-look-into topic.
It's interesting to think that angels and humans could be equals - another personal opinion of mine is something of the flipside of this. When working with entities in ritual, I always consider the entity and myself to be business partners - each must show the other a degree of respect, but as equals. Just some random whimsical thoughts there.
Following on from that, one thing that this schema of children-of-earth/children-of-sky calls to mind is where demons fit in. Humans represent Earth, Angels are Sky... what of the infernal entities? Perhaps they're just angels that've been demonised over the past few thousand years? What'd happen if you were united with the /other/ side, the fallen angels (assuming, of course, they exist and are distinct from angels in moral/ethic)?
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:00 am
Mitsh This is utterly sexy, and /exactly/ the kind of thing the guild needs. A nice, well thought out, intellectual idea put forward in an eloquent and scholarly fashion. Three cheers, princess. |3
The thing that this makes me think of most is the Thelemic/Hermetic idea of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel (as you mentioned); pretty much trying to unite yourself with your divine self and whatnot. Personally, I'm not big on cosmic enlightenment and what have you, but for those looking for spiritual advancement it's certainly a /definite/ must-look-into topic.
It's interesting to think that angels and humans could be equals - another personal opinion of mine is something of the flipside of this. When working with entities in ritual, I always consider the entity and myself to be business partners - each must show the other a degree of respect, but as equals. Just some random whimsical thoughts there.
Following on from that, one thing that this schema of children-of-earth/children-of-sky calls to mind is where demons fit in. Humans represent Earth, Angels are Sky... what of the infernal entities? Perhaps they're just angels that've been demonised over the past few thousand years? What'd happen if you were united with the /other/ side, the fallen angels (assuming, of course, they exist and are distinct from angels in moral/ethic)? That's a very good point! From what I've read, just as angels are representative of the divine self and true enlightenment, demons are representative of the more animalistic side of the self. Things like lust, greed, desire of any kind, these would all be associated with demons. I've read some books where they talk about the whole Goetic procedure, where one uses the particular angel that rules over one certain demon of choice to control the demon for the magician's own purposes. Also, in Abramelin, the first thing one does after uniting with the Guardian Angel is meet the kings of the demons and demand servants from them. In a way, this is the equivalent of using one's divine enlightenment to control one's animal desires. Some have said that this is what it represents. But in my whole scheme of "Earth = humans, Sky = angels", I would say that demons would fall into a "Fire = demons" kind of third part. I'm reading a book right now that talks a lot about the fires in the center of the earth, and since the demons are equated to that area, well, there you go. And if the demons are our desires, there we have fire again. You know, I think that the Holy Guardian Angel did become a Thelemic idea, there are things written about Aleister Crowley having an elaborate book filled with the magickal letter squares from Abramelin. I read that once an apprentice of his started to look through the book and Crowley came down on him like the wrath of God, yelling "Stay out of there! You have no idea what you could unleash!". Aleister Crowley claimed that the letter squares in Abramelin were some of the most dangerous implements he had come across, if someone knew how to use them. Of course, I am talking Abramelin up because it is one of my favorites biggrin
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:18 pm
From my understanding of the story of Noah, the reason God decided to flood the World was to get rid of the progeny of angels and humans. Prior to the flood, angels were supposedly free to materialize at will. Some of them lusted over human females and decided to have sex with them. The women gave birth to Nephilims, and they ended up being brutal giants.
God chastised those angels and were henceforth denied access to God. All angels were thereafter denied the ability to materialize (of their own volition?). They could at most influence humans, but not directly interact with them. Or maybe it's that they could no longer initiate direct contact... I don't know.
(Much of what I've said agrees with your description of the Book of Enoch (which I've not read).)
So if the product of an angel and a human is a brutal giant, I suppose it makes sense to prevent angels from having sex with humans.
------------ I don't believe there is a [gG]od who is perfect (as in doesn't make mistakes). Otherwise, there would not have been an original sin the way Abrahamic religions claim, it would either never have been possible for angels to procreate with humans OR the product of such a procreation would not have been an abhorent creature.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:01 pm
I can see where you're coming from. The union between humans and angels the way I think of it is not exactly a sexual, child-birthing thing though. I think of it more like a spiritual union of two forces that make something magnificent. Or I don't know, maybe I will end up accidentally getting knocked up by an angel. Hey, I mean... atleast they're said to be gorgeous biggrin
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:28 pm
That was amazing, and brought a shiver to my spine.
I have myself wondered about that sort of thing more than once, though I haven't been able to read any texts on it really.
That's kind of amusing though, the whole "Enoch" thing. That's where my last name came from, generations ago. At least, that's what genealogy points to.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:36 pm
eiei...OMGWTFBBQ That was amazing, and brought a shiver to my spine. I have myself wondered about that sort of thing more than once, though I haven't been able to read any texts on it really. That's kind of amusing though, the whole "Enoch" thing. That's where my last name came from, generations ago. At least, that's what genealogy points to. Oh wow! Wouldn't that be cool if you are descended from the Enoch family? That is a really neat thought! And I'm glad you liked the topic biggrin
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:10 pm
(I started writing this yesterday, then I went on some tangent looking on Wikipedia and closed my browser... redface So I'm starting from scratch...) This is what I was focusing on when I wrote my reply about angels having sex : Loagaeth The union of angels and humans... why is it always demonized? Supposedly, the angels fell for a second time from heaven because they came to earth to have sex with human women. The first fall was Lucifer's pride, the second was for lust, alledgedly. For their decisions, the angels were delivered a very harsh sentence involving lots of torture and wandering around lost in the darkness, forever banished from the light of heaven. Atleast this is what the Book of Enoch says. Once I was wandering around on the internet and I found a christian site that had put up what seemed to be an FAQ on angels. Someone asked them what to do if an angel appeared to them and tried to instigate anything sexual. The response was that it must be a demon, because no angel will ever proposition anyone. But why is this a rule? Perhaps it's the church's quest to demonize sex of any kind. And if sex is evil, there is no way such a pious creature would have anything to do with it. It could be a way of estranging us even more from God and his holy servants. After all, we are supposed to feel like we are slime, ever since Adam took the bite out of the apple. I suppose it could be many things. Yes, the Church does like to spin things in such a way that they vilify sex and all things related to it. However, it wasn't always so. Remember that these texts are much older than Christianity. I don't think the intent of these stories was to say that sex was wrong. Maybe it was a warning about the dangers of cross-species breeding. Maybe it was meant to promote racial segregation. Maybe it was simply an account of something that really happened. But what the Church is saying is that if a spirit that claims to be an angel tried to instigate something sexual, then it must be a demon. This is a logical conclusion from the story of what happened just before the flood. So, either the "angel" was already a demon, or it will be. This is because all demons are angels that have fallen from grace, according to this tradition, and one of the ways angels get the disfavour of God is by doing something sexual with a human. Basically, angels and demons are two nations or factions of the same race. And I think this is simply because ot a few mistakes God made : a) giving the capacity for angels to lust over humans, b) allowing the angels to be sexually compatible with humans, c) making it possible for angels to procreate with humans, and d) having the product of angels and humans be the brutes they are descrbed as in the texts. However, I don't think all this precludes angels and humans from having other forms of union. Maybe we do have guardian angels who look over us, who try to nudge us in one way or the other. Maybe we have some from both sides of the camp. Note : I'm writing this under the assumptions that there is a creator God, angels exist, and the accounts in Genesis and the Book of Enoch really did happen... all of which I don't really hold. I maintain what I like to call a healthy sense of skepticism (neither really believe nor really disbelieve).
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:14 pm
Well put! And isn't it interesting that God would make angels and humans with the capacity to have sex, only to condemn them for doing so? I question that sometimes. Perhaps there is a reason even for that.
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:43 pm
I put this same topic up on the Extended Discussion forum and they somehow turned it into a discussion on porn. rolleyes
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 7:03 pm
But, isn't it always about porn? Om mani padmi hum and all that wink
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:46 am
Nuadu But, isn't it always about porn? Om mani padmi hum and all that wink Indeed! I was a little disappointed, I thought that since I've read many of the ED forum's stuffy posts from some of their users that they would take it more seriously! I thought I could get some hardcore debate going on there about what a Book of Enoch era harlot I was! Ah well. Atleast everyone on here actually took it to heart. heart
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:50 am
I read this post before deciding to join yesterday. I have to say, this was very well put together. It was probably the deciding factor in my joining this guild. I plan on looking further into this topic later on myself.
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:16 pm
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Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:54 pm
Mitsh What'd happen if you were united with the /other/ side, the fallen angels (assuming, of course, they exist and are distinct from angels in moral/ethic)? i don't know if i'm doing the equivilent of leaping over a wall without checking what's on the other side cyber-style, but i'll just carry on and stick a foot in it.
perhaps the whole angels and demons thing is a bit of a misconseption on our part as they are probably a single race that is not any thing to do with god or any other deity. they meerly exhibit things that we associate with angels (purity, innocence, kindness, love e.c.t.) and demons (hate, anger, lust, violence e.c.t.) but in a more powerful and concentrated form that we (humans) can't possibly emulate.
so in uniting with the "fallen angels" we are simply connecting with an amplification of a certain negative (or what can be percieved as negative as some may argue that lust is not a negative).
and by following this random thought of mine, it would mean that "angels" and "demons" are simply the human race's way of categorizing this race into something that we can understand easier.
i think i'd better stop before mortally confusing myself or any one else now redface hope this made some sort of vague semse any way, cya!!
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