Welcome to Gaia! ::

Oh my god, do not LISTEN to those PEOPLE - Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, John Lyons; they only want your MONEY. Do not buy their equipment, you can do the same thing with regular halters, lead ropes, and bridles. ANY type of training that hinges on special equipment is NOT good training. I've been to Roberts' AND Parellis' clinics - I even bought Parelli's program expecting something new and fantastic and was extremely irritated to find nothing but some little paper booklets telling me everything about training that I already knew. It was overpriced, to boot.

Instead of working off of a set 'program,' (also a bad thing, because every horse has individual needs) I suggest buying different books by different authors concerning training and horse psychology - MANY (MOST, even) have the same material, only less simplified (more detailed, more explanation as to WHY they do what they do) and less expensive. My personal favorites are Q&A Guide to Understanding Your Horse by Michael Peace and Unlock Your Horse's Talent in 20 Minutes A Day by Richard Maxwell. There are plenty of other "natural horsemanship" books out there - off the top of my head, Horse, Follow Closely by Gawani Pony Boy and Horses Never Lie by Mark Rashid, NEITHER of which have I ever read, but they both sound good xp . Also, as I mentioned, there are plenty of books on psychology, which are just as helpful as training books -- I have one called Understanding Horse Behavior that is pretty interesting. You're much better off spending $20 on a great book than you are $150 on some little paper booklets and a rope halter.

If you've never had any experience with gentling wild mustangs (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about, since you specifically mentioned getting a mustang), consult someone experienced. I highly suggest PMing MustangDragon on gaia, she's extremely knowledgable in that field.

P.S. To answer one of the questions in the original post, I have trained quite a few horses from scratch, all using not one trainer's ideas, but whatever methods best suited that horse. When you have an abused horse who's terrified of people, chasing it around a round pen can be absolutely disastrous - what Monty Roberts doesn't tell you is that round pen work hinges on the idea that you are removing a horse from its comfort zone (the center of the pen) and placing it on the outskirts of the 'herd' where it is most vulnerable in the wild. It's something alpha mares do to other horses to 'show them who's boss.' When you have a really ADHD horse, channeling its energy in different directions and making it move its feet is a better outlet than hurling a rope at it. You see my point on the 'different methods' bit. xd It all depends on the horse and what's best for it individually, not how great a certain trainer is.

Good; I'd hate to know someone else had wasted their money. xd

You could actually probably get great advice on SPECIFIC problems from people here (personally, I actually fix problem horses as a job), or there are plenty of people I know whom you could PM or email. Or you may just want to type in the specific problem on google. *shrug*

The Q&A Guide thing I was talking about has a section that sort of like a troubleshooting manual ("my horse bucks" "my horse spooks at jumps" "my horse drags me around" etc.)... and there are lots and lots of articles online by Cherry Hill concerning different behavioral problems and how to fix them.

The problem is not with the "GAMES" themselves. They are not GAMES; they are classical training techniques that have been in use - successfully - for hundreds of years. The problem is that Parelli one, tries to put a copyright on those techniques and call them HIS (i.e. the concept of teaching a horse to move away from pressure becomes Parelli's special PORCUPINE GAME, longeing becomes Parelli's special CIRCLING GAME), and two, he oversimplifies everything, excluding fine details that are absolutely crucial to the owner's knowledge and the horse's training. If the horse looks pissed, it's probably because the owner is doing it wrong. When I attended the Parelli clinic... oh boy, were there a ton of owners doing everything wrong. stare

(And by the way, you certainly can play games with a horse; they are large animals, though many of them don't weigh NEAR 2000lbs, and can be dangerous when not handled properly, but they are INTELLIGENT animals who need mental stimulation and enjoy interaction with their human companions. Positive examples of games are trick training sessions - the horse learns to do something ON CUE and on cue only, but it's a fun thing for the horse to do [like picking things up with his mouth] and he sometimes gets treats for doing it correctly, and it gives him something to think about while he tries to figure out what the owner wants, sort of like a puzzle - good for the horse's mind, amusing for the owner 3nodding .)

I have a long line of people, myself included, who can tell you why Roberts is NOT one of the best trainers. I explained above, concerning his emphasis on buying HIS EQUIPMENT to properly utilise his 'program' and how his 'method' (chasing a horse around a round pen until it's tired of running - not proper roundpen work) can be disastrous when misused - and there are PLENTY of ways to misuse it. Roberts also does not explain the mechanics behind the concept of round pen work (sometimes I'm not even sure if he actually knows stare ), a crucial mistake, because if the trainer does not KNOW - and know WELL - what they are doing in the round pen, attempting this method will do more harm than good. I've seen more horses left confused and upset from a 'join up session' than you can imagine because of the owners' ignorance.

Ahem. *steps down from soapbox* >.>

I like what I've seen of Clinton Anderson, though, and I know an older, experienced trainer who loves him, so I have no complaints about him at the moment lol.

Ah, I see. Really, I think half of the owners that buy Parelli's program to try to 'FIX' their problem horses are just better off selling the horses to someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING and can actually give the horse a proper, constructive environment in which it can IMPROVE. neutral

Oh, we're not talking about YOU, just talking to each other about the general subject.

The last thing I posted to YOU was...



Everything else has just been describing my general dislike of the aforementioned trainers for various reasons (i.e. Parelli doesn't truly educate owners, just gives them a set of directions to blindly follow; the ignorant owners we were talking about had nothing to do with you).

I've seen some people come out with good results with Parelli but... I don't think its a road I'd personally head down myself. I don't feel fully educated and the programs are expensive.

I like Ray Hunt, he really educates people - yeah he has a few DVD's and such but their really not expensive ($100 and under) he's trying to spread his message and I think its a really unique one. This is a little section from his website...

"From the time it all began, Ray Hunt has tried to show the human how to approach the horse. Many have tried to emulate, which is the highest form of flattery, but none have had the feel, timing and balance which Ray works on still to this day. Ray is always working from where the horse is at, being aware of the horses physical and mental expression. There is nothing mystical, just a man with a passion for horses ever thinking, ever feeling, always working on how much less he can do to get the understanding come through." - http://www.rayhunt.com/

My coach fallows this line of things, but with a little change to suit his own horses. This is the kind of thing I've been learning for the past 4 years and let me tell you from my own personal experience, WOW! I'm much more confident, so much more educated... and it would be an honor for me to attend a Ray Hunt clinic and meet him, like my coach has.

When I was educated by my instructor with these types of methods and others he's leared over the years, I've been able to keep a horse with me and spooking in some of the most extreme winds and weather and noises.

I also like Chris Irwin, who also talks about Ray Hunt in his two books. I also like a lot of NH trainers, that aren't so famous and are close friends of mine. They've educated me a lot..

Personally, if you can find a trainer who will work one on one with you and the horse, thats the way to go. Sending a horse away won't do anything because its you he/she needs to learn with. He/She can be perfect for the trainer, but come back to you and be the same. Find a good pateint, respectable trainer to work one on one with.

I personally don't like Monty Roberts much. I think he's already been talkes about a lot so I won't say much. I don't think he educates people fully, and some of the stuff in his books are just... well personally I don't believe it. How he stops a bucking horse, how he focuses on that one halter. I don't like it much how he says you have to use it to accomplish this and that when I can get the same results, if not better in a regular nylon or rope halter with a little more patients and time.

I personally have a lot of respect for Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Chris Irwin and a few NH trainers I know up here in Canada.

Accutally, jiggling the line to make the horse back up is quite useful when the horse is at a father distance, say on the lunge line. I've used that when my horse starts coming in without me allowing it, I've used this to back him up, so I could safely send him off without his feet getting caught in the lunge line. It was a lot more affective then having to walk to him and re-coil my line. I know it seems ... wierd, thats how I felt about it at first too, its proven to be very useul to me though.

I don't believe it all to be a big money scheme, not completly. There are trainers like Bill Dorrance who had amazing thoughts and such, and he wanted to share those with ohers (Same with Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance) and shortly after his book, he passed away. But he left something behind to teach others... and give a better look to the horse. I know people like Parelli and the programs are expensive, and I think spendng all that money insn't worth it - but Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance etc. for a DVD or a book, it isn't that expensive and they DO educate. They all want to pass on their knowledge and educate others (Like my coach).

If you're looking for someone to train your horse, sending it off to a trainer, I agree isn't useful. My coach always says a horse is the product of your horsemanship. Well, okay so your horse will learn something out at the trainer's but its not going to make a difference when he comes back.

Find a trainer who will work one on one with you AND the horse, training both of you. That way you learn to fix the problem and the horse respons to you.

I like NHM but to an extent... some things just get too expensive and crazy and then it becomes a money scheme.