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Dan the Fairy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:28 pm




Well, it's nothing new that Vegans and Vegetarians are looked down upon in society in general. Over time we've acquired a bad reputation XD;

But, fellow Vegans, do you look down upon Vegetarians ?

I have to say, I kind of do. ...Let me explain.

I know that I should support a Vegetarian in what they do to help animals, but it just irritates me that they're not able to 'give up milk and cheese' or anything. They always seem to come up with excuses, and this and that. And I know I'm generalizing, which is also bad ( sweatdrop ), but still. I've done it. I've sacrificed. I know how tough it is at first. Heck, I was Vegetarian for like a week before I went Vegan.

I find that there's no good excuse not to go Vegan. I really don't. I mean, I'm fourteen years old, and I'm Vegan. So why can't someone who's twenty-one do it ?

I don't mean to offend anyone by this, I just want to know others opinions.


So, Vegans, do you look down upon Vegetarians ?


PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:40 am


Well, I know some people online who are vegetarian because they're still living at home in an unsupportive household. They can easily avoid meat, but because their family isn't supportive of their decision, it's difficult for them to avoid dairy products.

Depending on the person's reasoning for becoming vegetarian, I don't always understand why they won't take the plunge and go vegan. If someone becomes vegetarian to help the environment and reduce cruelty to animals, then becoming vegan would help them realize their values to a further extent.

If that's what they want to accomplish, but they say they can't go vegan because they "like the taste of dairy" too much, I find that horrifying because that's usually the answer meat-eaters offer when they explain why they do what they do.

Whereas I find this disturbing, I wouldn't say I look down on them. I don't understand their reasoning, but I think it's wonderful they're doing something. I think vegetarianism is a stepping stone to veganism or failure; if their reasoning is that "dairy is too delicious" then they're probably doomed to failure because meat may become too delicious, that or they discover more information, go through some cognitive dissonance, and subsequently go vegan. I'm in the latter group. I was vegetarian for a number of years, but I've been vegan for a while now.

I still think eggs are really freaking delicious, but I don't eat them because I don't agree with the cruelty behind them. It can be difficult at times, but I disagree with the abuse behind that egg, so I won't eat it. I think now if I did have some kind of egg I'd probably find it disgusting . . . I hope it would taste disgusting to me.

pilliwinks


Aceline1012

PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:39 pm


pilliwinks
Well, I know some people online who are vegetarian because they're still living at home in an unsupportive household. They can easily avoid meat, but because their family isn't supportive of their decision, it's difficult for them to avoid dairy products.


I know this is addressed to vegans, but I'm a vegetarain and feel the need to defend myself. I've been a vegetarain for a couple months now and my mother thinks it's been a week.

"It's a phase. She's going to stop soon." She even thought I was doing it because my friends were doing it (though i was the frist in my group to try it), and that I would move on to the next 'thing' soon enough.

My household doesn't have alot of fruits laying around, and we only buy enough vegetables to last us for the next week of dinner at a time. I do wish to become vegan, but until i find a way to get some kind of protein, it just can't happen. I don't think it's fair that you are grouping vegetarains together like that (even though I know you already said that you were trying not to sterotype) because everyone has a reason for what they...are....eating. ( confused you know what i mean, okay?) Goshdarnit! What the are, okay? Vegetarian, Vegan, etc. Unless they're just eating meat because they find no wrong in it.

Some people aren't thinking about the animals and do it for their health, either way, you go vege for some reason, and if it is for the right reasons, then you will evolve in due time.

Did that make sense? No, I didn't think so....oh well. I tried.
Also, I don't think age has anything to do with it; i'm 13...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:29 am


Maybe we don't like turning the dinner table into a battle feild.
Maybe we don't like having to buy our own groceries even when we are unemployed and have no money.
Maybe we don't like our family and parents hating us because we won't eat over half the things they buy.
Maybe we don't like having unsupportive parents who won't buy the nessicary things we need to keep us healthy, and then having no energy, no immune system and grey skin. (I'm not kidding, my skin turned grey..)

If anyone is looking down on vegetarians its YOU.
And you REALLY need to stop NOW!

Octopus Garden


koolchick007

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:45 am


I don't because at least they are doing something they arn't just sitting around not caring. I do however look down apon people who call themselves vegetarian because they don't like meat or only eat certain animals.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:34 pm


I don't look down on anyone for their dietary choices. That to me is childish and very narrow minded. One person chooses their diet for a different reason than the next person. Why do I eat what I do? I will let you know it has 0% to do with your reason for you turning vegan.

Henbane
Vice Captain


Arashi Inu

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:27 pm


Will you find me a blue rose?

I understand what you're saying.

Don't think I could ever give up milk though. I have milk with every meal. My lunch is yogurt or a smoothie and a bagle with cream cheese, I have ice cream before I go to bed, and theres milk in all of the grain products I eat. Which I eat a lot of.

Just giving up meat is bad for my body because I'm underweight.

I haven't even told my parents I want to be a vegetarian yet which is another reason why I'm a semi vegetarian.

My mom forces me to drink milk. ( Well not literally force but she gets mad.) Because she had fragile bones and doesn't want me to have the same problem.

I'm also lazy.

But I am going to eventually check out drinking milk from small local farms where I know the animals weren't harmed, but I cant do that for a while either.


User Image
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:44 pm


Milking a cow does not kill her.

It doesn't torture her.

According to most people who have experience milking cows, it isn't even uncomfortable.

What's an unfertilized egg to a chicken? Nothing. If it's not eaten, all it will do is rot.

Are hens forced to lay eggs? They're not even forced to have sex with roosters. My cockatiel laid an egg once, for no reason whatsoever--I don't think she's ever even seen a male. (It was, strangely, right around the Vernal Equinox.)

You may argue that cows and chickens are abused on farms. But that doesn't make eating dairy and eggs wrong. That would be like saying because some parents abuse their children, raising children is wrong.

I'm with you all the way on inhumane farming practices. But taking an egg away from a hen is nothing compared to killing a hen. I avoid contributing to cruelty whereever I can, but I feel there is nothing morally wrong with eating an unfertilized egg.

La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:59 pm


La Veuve Zin
Milking a cow does not kill her.

It doesn't torture her.

According to most people who have experience milking cows, it isn't even uncomfortable.

What's an unfertilized egg to a chicken? Nothing. If it's not eaten, all it will do is rot.

Are hens forced to lay eggs? They're not even forced to have sex with roosters. My cockatiel laid an egg once, for no reason whatsoever--I don't think she's ever even seen a male. (It was, strangely, right around the Vernal Equinox.)



The reality is dairy farms and egg farms are just as bad as the meat industry.
And birds produce eggs regardless of whether they have sex.

FactoryFarming.com

Regardless of where they live, however, all dairy cows must give birth in order to begin producing milk. Today, dairy cows are forced to have a calf every year. Like human beings, cows have a nine-month gestation period, and so giving birth every twelve months is physically demanding. The cows are also artificially re-impregnated while they are still lactating from their previous birthing, so their bodies are still producing milk during seven months of their nine-month pregnancy.
With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day — ten times more than they would produce naturally. As a result, the cows' bodies are under constant stress, and they are at risk for numerous health problems.

Approximately half of the country's dairy cows suffer from mastitis, a bacterial infection of their udders. This is such a common and costly ailment that a dairy industry group, the National Mastitis Council, was formed specifically to combat the disease. Other diseases, such as Bovine Leukemia Virus, Bovine Immunodeficiency Virus, and Johne's disease (whose human counterpart is Crohn's disease) are also rampant on modern dairies, but they commonly go unnoticed because they are either difficult to detect or have a long incubation period.
A cow eating a normal grass diet could not produce milk at the abnormal levels expected on modern dairies, and so today's dairy cows must be given high energy feeds. The unnaturally rich diet causes metabolic disorders including ketosis, which can be fatal, and laminitis, which causes lameness.

Another dairy industry disease caused by intensive milk production is "Milk Fever." This ailment is caused by calcium deficiency, and it occurs when milk secretion depletes calcium faster than it can be replenished in the blood.

In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of twenty-five years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered and made into ground beef after just three or four years. The abuse wreaked upon the bodies of dairy cows is so intense that the dairy industry also is a huge source of "downed animals" — animals who are so sick or injured that they are unable to walk even stand. Investigators have documented downed animals routinely being beaten, dragged, or pushed with bulldozers in attempts to move them to slaughter.

Although the dairy industry is familiar with the cows' health problems and suffering associated with intensive milk production, it continues to subject cows to even worse abuses in the name of increased profit. Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH), a synthetic hormone, is now being injected into cows to get them to produce even more milk. Besides adversely affecting the cows' health, BGH also increases birth defects in their calves.

Calves born to dairy cows are separated from their mothers immediately after birth. The half that are born female are raised to replace older dairy cows in the milking herd. The other half of the calves are male, and because they will never produce milk, they are raised and slaughtered for meat. Most are killed for beef, with close to one million being used for veal.

The veal industry was created as a by-product of the dairy industry to take advantage of an abundant supply of unwanted male calves. Veal calves commonly live for eighteen to twenty weeks in wooden crates that are so small that they cannot turn around, stretch their legs, or even lie down comfortably. The calves are fed a liquid milk substitute, deficient in iron and fiber, which is designed to make the animals anemic, resulting in the light-colored flesh that is prized as veal. In addition to this high-priced veal, some calves are killed at just a few days old to be sold as low-grade 'bob' veal for products like frozen TV dinners.



FactoryFarming.com

There are approximately 300 million egg laying hens in the U.S. confined in battery cages — small wire cages stacked in tiers and lined up in rows inside huge warehouses. In accordance with the USDA's recommendation to give each hen four inches of 'feeder space,' hens are commonly packed four to a cage measuring just 16 inches wide. In this tiny space, the birds cannot stretch their wings or legs, and they cannot fulfill normal behavioral patterns or social needs. Constantly rubbing against the wire cages, they suffer from severe feather loss, and their bodies are covered with bruises and abrasions.

In order to reduce injuries resulting from excessive pecking — an aberrant behavior that occurs when the confined hens are bored and frustrated — practically all laying hens have part of their beaks cut off. Debeaking is a painful procedure that involves cutting through bone, cartilage, and soft tissue.

Laying more than 250 eggs per year each, laying hens' bodies are severely taxed. They suffer from "fatty liver syndrome" when their liver cells, which work overtime to produce the fat and protein for egg yolks, accumulate extra fat. They also suffer from what the industry calls 'cage layer fatigue,' and many become 'egg bound' and die when their bodies are too weak to pass another egg.

Osteoporosis is another common ailment afflicting egg laying hens, whose bodies lose more calcium to form egg shells than they can assimilate from their diets. One industry journal, Feedstuffs, explains, "...the laying hen at peak eggshell cannot absorb enough calcium from her diet..." while another (Lancaster Farming) states, "... a hen will use a quantity of calcium for yearly egg production that is greater than her entire skeleton by 30-fold or more." Inadequate calcium contributes to broken bones, paralysis, and death.

After one year in egg production, the birds are classified as 'spent hens' and are sent off to slaughter. Their brittle, calcium-depleted bones often shatter during handling or at the slaughterhouse. They usually end up in soups, pot pies, or similar low-grade chicken meat products in which their bodies can be shredded to hide the bruises from consumers.

With a growing supply of broiler chickens keeping slaughterhouses busy, egg producers have had to find new ways to dispose of spent hens. One entrepreneur has developed the 'Jet-Pro' system to turn spent hens into animal feed. As described in Feedstuffs, "Company trucks would enter layer operations, pick up the birds, and grind them up, on site, in a portable grinder... it (the ground up hens) would go to Jet-Pro's new extruder-texturizer, the 'Pellet Pro.'"

In one notorious case of extraordinary cruelty at Ward Egg Ranch in February 2003 in San Diego County, California, more than 15,000 spent laying hens were tossed alive into a wood-chipping machine to dispose of them. Despite tremendous outcry from a horrified public, the district attorney declined to prosecute the owners of the egg farm, calling the use of a wood-chipper to kill hens a "common industry practice."

In some cases, especially if the cost of replacement hens is high, laying hens may be 'force molted' to extend their laying capacity. This process involves starving the hens for up to 18 days, keeping them in the dark, and denying them water to shock their bodies into another egg-laying cycle. Commonly, between 5 and 10% of birds die during the molt, and those who live may lose more than 25% of their body weight.

For every egg-laying hen confined in a battery cage, there is a male chick who was killed at the hatchery. Because egg-laying chicken breeds have been genetically selected exclusively for maximum egg production, they don't grow fast or large enough to be raised profitably for meat. Therefore, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are of no economic value, and they are literally discarded on the day they hatch — usually by the cheapest, most convenient means available. Thrown into trash cans by the thousands, male chicks suffocate or are crushed under the weight of others.

Another common method of disposing of unwanted male chicks is grinding them up alive. This can result in unspeakable horrors, as described by one research scientist who observed that "even after twenty seconds, there were only partly damaged animals with whole skulls". In other words, fully conscious chicks were partially ground up and left to slowly and agonizingly die. Eyewitness accounts at commercial hatcheries indicate similar horrors of chicks being slowly dismembered by machinery blades en route to trash bins or manure spreaders.



La Veuve Zim

You may argue that cows and chickens are abused on farms. But that doesn't make eating dairy and eggs wrong. That would be like saying because some parents abuse their children, raising children is wrong.

I'm with you all the way on inhumane farming practices. But taking an egg away from a hen is nothing compared to killing a hen. I avoid contributing to cruelty whereever I can, but I feel there is nothing morally wrong with eating an unfertilized egg.


The egg, dairy, and meat industries are all connected.
After dairy cows and laying hens are "burnt out" from the stress, they'll be slaughtered. Male chicks are killed instantly and male calves go to the veal industry. By eating eggs and dairy, you're supporting these industries. You're supporting torturing animals, that in the end, will either die of disease and mistreatment, or sent off to be slaughtered.

This isn't on some farms - factory farming is the norm in America and other industrialized countries.

This really isn't like somebody saying "raising children is wrong because some parents abuse their children." That metaphor makes absolutely no sense.

The reality is, when you support the dairy and egg industries, you support torturing and killing animals.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:55 pm


Like I said:

I
I'm with you all the way on inhumane farming practices.


I'm saying it's possible to raise cows for milk and (even more easily) chickens for eggs without inhumane practices. I know this isn't the norm. I know it's not what giant factory farms do. But it can be done. If I have a pet chicken, and she lays a definitely unfertilized egg, is it wrong for me to eat it? Should I just let it rot?

La Veuve Zin

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:19 pm


La Veuve Zin
Like I said:

I
I'm with you all the way on inhumane farming practices.


I'm saying it's possible to raise cows for milk and (even more easily) chickens for eggs without inhumane practices. I know this isn't the norm. I know it's not what giant factory farms do. But it can be done. If I have a pet chicken, and she lays a definitely unfertilized egg, is it wrong for me to eat it? Should I just let it rot?


    I don't think it would be wrong in that situation.
    But I don't agree with drinking milk for any reason.
    It's for their calves, not people.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:07 pm


Im a vegetarian is more leaning toward organic milk and eggs.
I try to limit my consumption of non-organic dairy and eggs because I'm aware of the conditions that these animals live in.

Organic milk and eggs come from animals that are treated humanely, recieve better food and care, and live in better conditions.

I support organic.

Pandemasu


-Eats a Pizza-

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:48 am


Aceline1012
pilliwinks
Well, I know some people online who are vegetarian because they're still living at home in an unsupportive household. They can easily avoid meat, but because their family isn't supportive of their decision, it's difficult for them to avoid dairy products.



you go vege for some reason, and if it is for the right reasons, then you will evolve in due time.



Add what ever they just said^^^ to my reasons.

This is probably gunna seem like another excuse(it is):

Why I'm not a vegan.
Veganism just seems so hard. It's not just diet(like vegetarianism) its a WHOLE LIFESTYLE. crying
Veganism seem to deal not just with the death of animals, but also of their exploitation(which is my interpretation of it). And it seems hypocritical to me to not recognize the exploitation of EVERYTHING ELSE. The Earth, the air, other people( sweat shops, employees getting treated bad). You know how many of our products come from sweat shops?

It seems that I'm developing into not eating as much dairy and eggs. Becoming vegan hard for me to it all at once. Mainly because of person habit and living situations. I'm 16 btw.

Wait, so vegans hate vegetarians???
lol
I heard he same thing about lez/gay hating the bi's (which I am)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:55 am


v e g a n l i c i o u s
La Veuve Zin
Milking a cow does not kill her.

It doesn't torture her.

According to most people who have experience milking cows, it isn't even uncomfortable.

What's an unfertilized egg to a chicken? Nothing. If it's not eaten, all it will do is rot.

Are hens forced to lay eggs? They're not even forced to have sex with roosters. My cockatiel laid an egg once, for no reason whatsoever--I don't think she's ever even seen a male. (It was, strangely, right around the Vernal Equinox.)


But think about this: Where do you think those cows go when they are no longer able to produce milk? And the hens, they don't lay eggs for ever and ever do they?

-Eats a Pizza-


The Herbivore

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:56 pm


I don't understand where the age factor comes from, because I became vegetarian when I was ten, and vegan just this New Year (I am now twelve). No matter your age, you can change your eating habits/lifestyle.
I do not look down upon vegetarians. We should all be happy they have decided to stop eating meat. Yes, I know that all the dairy/egg industries are tied together with meat, but these people are doing what they can.
I understand that some people may not get support from their parents, they don't have the money to buy vegan food, and whatever reason can be thought of.
I honestly don't care a person's diet, really. It is their life, not ours. We control our own, they control theirs.

-Abrasion
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