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Xeigrich
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:14 pm


Activity here seems to be on the slow slide at the moment, so...


Consonants!

It seems as if we'll have a considerable variety of vowel sounds, so we need to decide if this conlang will be heavy on the vowels or not.

Personally, I prefer a wider variety of consonants than vowels, but we should probably limit the consonant sounds just a bit to give the conlang a unique sound.

I'll toss up a suggestion (in English equivalents because I still don't understand X-Sampa)...

b p h f v
s sh z zh j
m n ng
t d
k g
l r

Basically leaving out "th" and its voiced equivalent, as well as maybe the "ch." Also, it might me good to use vowels for the W and Y sounds instead of having them as consonants.

I'm also thinking a French style R or maybe a hard German CH might work with this.


Well?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:39 am


I'm thinking the the German CH would sound okay only with a larger variety of consonants.

Karaiya


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:16 pm


I simply adore the sound /N/. Can we have that one please? mrgreen

And by , what do you mean? Do you mean or ? I much prefer the former myself. I love /j/.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:23 pm


Karaiya
I'm thinking the the German CH would sound okay only with a larger variety of consonants.


Not entirely so... One of my personal conlangs, Maccetu, has a German CH type of sound but an otherwise limited variety of consonants. It doesn't sound out of place because of the way I have consonants set up...


Eccentric Iconoclast
I simply adore the sound /N/. Can we have that one please? mrgreen

And by , what do you mean? Do you mean or ? I much prefer the former myself. I love /j/.


Well I said in the post that I was using all English equivalents, so when I say J I mean (Note I just use a j without angle brackets...). I also said that it "might be good to use vowels for the W and Y sounds instead of having them as consonants," but that's my opinion, of course.

Also, I did include the English NG sound (velar nasal?), but if you mean the Japanese N sound (uvular nasal?), that's fine by me. I don't think we should try to use both, though.

EDITED.

Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:31 am


Oh, I didn't see it. Sorry. sweatdrop

I don't like the English sound and do really like my palatal approximants. ;(
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:41 am


I tried to organize the suggested consonants according to type (which I still don't have down completely)...

Plosive/Fricative: b p h f v
Fricative: s sh z zh j
Nasal: m n ng
Plosive: t d
Plosive: k g
Approximant: l r

Also...
German CH (voiceless velar fricative)

As for the palatal approximants, I really think that should be left up to diphthongs. I tend to dislike having Y as a consonant... We'll have to try and get a vote on this or something.

I happen to like the English J sound, and I can't tell a Palatal Lateral Approximant from a regular Palatal Approximant. They both just register as "Y sound" in my head. neutral

Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:51 pm


I just want a standard palatal approximant. ;D

seems very out of place to me without any other fricatives.

I don't really like as a consonant either. If you look at Aquénandi, you'll see that I do use for it, and that's why I was wondering.

But voiceless velar fricatives are awesome.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:43 pm


Alright, let's see if I can get these right...


MOST LIKELY:
Voiceless Bilabial Plosive


Voiced Bilabial Plosive
Voiceless Alveolar Plosive
Voiced Alveolar Plosive
Voiceless Velar Plosive
Voiced Velar Plosive
Voiceless Glottal Fricative
Voiceless Velar Fricative (German CH)
Voiceless Labiodental Fricative
Voiced Labiodental Fricative
Voiceless Alveolar Fricative
Voiced Alveolar Fricative
Voiceless Postalveolar Fricative
Voiced Postalveolar Fricative
Alveolar Lateral Approximant
Retroflex Approximant
Palatal Approximant *
Bilabial Nasal
Alveolar Nasal
Velar Nasal


OTHER CANDIDATES:
Voiceless Postalveolar Affricate


BOO:
Voiceless Palatal Fricative [ç]**
Voiced Postalveolar Affricate


Notes...
* Two votes against this as a consonant, but we know we do want this sound.
** I HATE this sound. If you guys insist we must have it then we shall, but otherwise, I say we shouldn't go anywhere near this sound. >_<

Use the chart here if you don't understand what sounds are what.


Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:19 pm


I'm not excessively fond of palatal fricatives either. xÞ

But does have to be an approximant? Lateral flaps are so easy and sound better. I hate approximant s.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:01 pm


Aw, I like the Retroflex Approximant. :I

Is an Alveolar Lateral Flap (Japanese R) better? I personally don't like overly trilled R sounds, such as those in Spanish, but the Japanese R is fine with me~


UPDATED CONSONANTS LIST (STILL TENTATIVE):
Voiceless Bilabial Plosive


Voiced Bilabial Plosive
Voiceless Alveolar Plosive
Voiced Alveolar Plosive
Voiceless Velar Plosive
Voiced Velar Plosive
Voiceless Glottal Fricative
Voiceless Velar Fricative (German CH)
Voiceless Labiodental Fricative
Voiced Labiodental Fricative
Voiceless Alveolar Fricative
Voiced Alveolar Fricative
Voiceless Postalveolar Fricative
Voiced Postalveolar Fricative
Alveolar Lateral Approximant
Retroflex Approximant
Alveolar Lateral Flap (Japanese R)
Palatal Approximant
Bilabial Nasal
Alveolar Nasal
Velar Nasal


Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Hawk_McKrakken

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:32 pm


The extra-hard consonantal sounds are what really strike my fancy. Sounds like English SH and CH, and German guttural CH.

And I'd much prefer a guttural or trilled R over the Japanese R. xp Otherwise having a separate letter for L would be rather pointless, as they sound horribly similar - too similar for my taste. Even the English R would do better.

And yeah, we should probably leave out the þ and ð sounds.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:47 pm


I already included the English SH sound as well as the guttural German CH sound. I left out the English CH sound because it kinda seemed out of place without an English J sound.

As for the R sounds.... E.I. didn't like the American R, and I personally don't like trilled (Spanish) R. I'm not sure about a guttural R, but I've been testing out these consonant sounds (much to my girlfriend's chagrin), and I can easily tell the included L sound from the included "Alveolar Lateral Flap" R sound, which isn't REALLY a Japanese R. Japanese R is just the closest and easiest example. It's a FLAP, so you probably won't confuse the flap (R) with the approximant (L). A real Japanese R tends to span and actually overlap the L sound, but this "alveolar lateral flap" doesn't.

Go listen to the "alveolar lateral flap" (R) sample sound at Wikipedia. It sounds like the speaker is say "odrla," which shouldn't be easy to confuse with "ala" from the "alveolar lateral approximant" (L) sample sound. If this fancy R is too complicated (it seems more complicated than E.I. made the American R seem), then we may have to settle with a Spanish R or something.

Yes, I left out the þ and ð from the beginning. I figured they might give the language too much of a Germanic sound, especially with the German CH in there.

Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:44 am


Why an alveolar lateral flap? We could use the standard lateral flap as found in Spanish. surprised
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:43 am


Well, I was just trying to mix things up a little so that we didn't have the same old consonants, but the votes are against me... standard Alveolar Tap/Flap it is. 3nodding

No trilling though, right? A lot of people seem to have problems trilling their R's, and although I can do it fine, I just don't like the sound.

UPDATED CONSONANTS LIST (ALMOST THERE):
Voiceless Bilabial Plosive


Voiced Bilabial Plosive
Voiceless Alveolar Plosive
Voiced Alveolar Plosive
Voiceless Velar Plosive
Voiced Velar Plosive
Voiceless Glottal Fricative
Voiceless Velar Fricative (German CH)
Voiceless Labiodental Fricative
Voiced Labiodental Fricative
Voiceless Alveolar Fricative
Voiced Alveolar Fricative
Voiceless Postalveolar Fricative
Voiced Postalveolar Fricative
Alveolar Lateral Approximant
Retroflex Approximant
Alveolar Lateral Flap (Japanese R)
Alveolar Flap/Tap (Spanish R, no trill)
Palatal Approximant
Bilabial Nasal
Alveolar Nasal
Velar Nasal


EDIT: Also, if anyone still wants the English J or English CH, we can always just approximate those sounds using D + ZH and T + SH. They don't necessarily need letters of their own.

As for fitting English or foreign words into this language (names, for example), we can use F and V in place of TH and DH.

Oh, and what about W? We already have consonant Y, and I'm against having a consonant W as well. Are we going to emulate the W sound via diphthongs?


Xeigrich
Vice Captain


Eccentric Iconoclast
Captain

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:41 pm


What about using for the palatal approximant and using for a vowel? Vowel would seem rather incomplete without that, I think. And should we use both the voiceless glottal fricative and the voiceless velar fricative? In most languages, those just blend together. I like the velar one better myself.

Actually, the phonology looks nice. We need to figure out the orthography, though. After everything's finalised.
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