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Time for some controversy. Now, I DID read the old threads before opening this topic, so I think I’m following the rules here. I think. In reviewing the old thread on Trivium (*hears gasps and derisive snorts*), I noticed that almost all the discussion centered around the Ascendancy album. I readily admit that was a metalcore record, no debate. What I want to bring up is that there was little to no mention of The Crusade. To the naysayers…have a listen. It lacks a great deal of the “hardcore punk” element necessary to label it metalcore. I contend that The Crusade sounds very much like thrash metal, albeit in a modern flavor. As for the quality of the album itself, it’s a mixed bag. The first two tracks are excellent, and the final instrumental is very good as well. On the other end, subpar songs like The Rising and Becoming the Dragon are present as well. But that misses my point. I just want to get it out there that I believe The Crusade shouldn’t be lumped into the metalcore genre. I will admit my bias, as I’m quite enamored of metalcore myself, which of course is like having leprosy among the regulars here. But that’s the music I’m passionate about, and I stand by it. I recognize it’s place in the guild discussion, however. So…discuss? sweatdrop *awaits certain skewering*

Exactly.

Just nobody being original sweatdrop

true. every song every chord every scale all comes from the same notes.

haven't heard much of the crusade but what i have heard sounds like...i hesitate to call it metalcore... but it sounds core.

i like some metalcore bands - lamb of god is okay, unearth is fairly good, shadows fall is okay too. nowhere near as good as straight up metal like slayer, sabbath, or priest, but they're pretty good.

but i from what i've heard of trivium (which is mostly early stuff) they are just too WHINY to have "metal" as a prefix to "core." im okay with clean vocals, dont get me wrong. iron maiden is the s**t. but trivium's clean vocals are just... annoyingly whiny. same with atreyu, a7x, etc. i just can't call it metal.

so while i will classify some metalcore acts like LoG and SF as metal...trivium just doesnt make the cut. while trivium and other similar bands may be influenced by real metal acts, i can't call them metal.

another thing that annoys me about them and a7x (and this applies to dragonforce too, though DF is powermetal...) is that so many "metal"heads are saying these bands are the greatest acts ever, they are the saviours of metal, they are the BEST thing metal has ever produced, they are the metal gods... well excuse me, but they have not been around long enough to be considered great. greatness is tested by many things - musical skill among those. but one of the defining things about greatness is that a great band can stand the test of time, and can hold fans over decades, and can gain new fans decades later. black sabbath fits this. although i don't like metallica's current direction, metallica fits this. slayer does too. priest and maiden do. a7x, trivium, dragonforce? they haven't been around long enough.

and they aren't "saviours" because metal has never died.

and as i said before...i cant bring myself to calling trivium and a7x metal

a lot of people hate em. i mean, they're nowhere near my favorite band - in fact theyre on the BOTTOM of the list of bands i have no problem listening to, and thats a LONG list covering a LOT of genres...but i dont see why everyone says theyre so horrible...i guess kinda like how you like trivium and dont see why everyone hates em.

as for the hardcore/metal continuum...like i said, i cant call it metal unless most of the influence comes from metal. and just cuz its "metal" doesnt mean i like it. and just cuz its not "metal" doesnt mean i won't like it. i grew up on BB King - i like other genres.

but bands like a7x and trivium and atreyu - i see neither a big metal influence (you yourself said they tilted more towards core), nor do i see a big hardcore influence. perhaps we are using different definitions of hardcore. when i say hardcore, i mean hardcore punk like Dead Kennedys (early in the scene, but still hardcore), Minor Threat, bands like that...the type of bands that took the loud, fast, simple quality of the ramones, the anger of the sex pistols, the politics of...oh, Marx...added a whole bunch more speed, noise and anger, and then released an album. i just dont see that sonic influence in trivium and the like. how do you define "hardcore"?

Blech, they're just so discordant and sloppy...and I just hate their vocalist. Just making an assumption here, but do you like Chimaira too? sweatdrop Yeah, I can see how that works. "We're all entitled to our own opinions" and whatnot. Hey, just because I don't like them doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Of course. Metal has its sour grapes just like any other genre. And I personally wasn't raised on metal...Pink Floyd was my first musical obsession...still is. xd Black Sabbath and Metallica were the bands that got me into the genre.

Metalcore is really more than the sum of its parts when you put it that way. Some bands like Shadows Fall are easy to pinpoint where the "metal" comes from. Hell, SF's early stuff is widely considered melo-death. You hit the nail right on the head with all of those bands...except you forgot Black Flag. xp Personally, I don't really listen to any of those, as I'm not a big fan of punk rock and its derivatives. Hardcore punk in that form is pretty much dead nowadays. So, since we're discussing a modern band like Trivium, then I think we should look at two examples of modern hardcore. Both have deviated pretty far from the original formula, but...no matter. (Earlier) Saosin and Hatebreed. Both claim hardcore punk as an influence, yet have drastically different sounds. A7X, Atreyu, and Trivium gravitate more towards the post-hardcore style of Saosin, whereas metalcore tilts more toward Hatebreed's heavier, almost-metal brand. So, really, metalcore is such a diverse genre that you can't slap a label on all of it and expect every band to sound like that standard. A fairer judgment would be on a band-by-band basis.

@Tech: That's what I'm trying to get at. TRY it before simply passing it off as subpar. It's understandable the annoyance that veteran metal fans feel at bands such as Avenged Sevenfold being held up as the "b35t mEHTul EvAr," but that shouldn't be generalized onto all metalcore bands. Like I said, band-by-band basis. And, yes, the classification is really of little importance as long as the music is good...BUT...this is the Metal Guild after all. Classification is a necessary evil to avoid getting too generalized.

punk isnt dead. like metal, it has been called dead by the mainstream, but its one of those attitudes that never dies. as long as there are disaffected youths, there will be both punk and metal. i mean, come on, the stooges got back together and are on tour - if they're working together again, punk must be doing pretty well!

as for trivium, as i said, ive tried em and i just cant stand em. just like you dislike LoG. now i havent heard LoG's new album, everyone says its worse than their earlier stuff, so i may not like them as much once i hear their new stuff, but for now...

i acknowledge that right. all im gonna say is that it isnt metal. which isn't the same thing as saying it sucks.

as for slayer sounding similar to when they started...have you listened to god hates us all??? it is WAY different than show no mercy or reign in blood. they have changed - and its arguable whether the change was for the best.