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 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:36 pm
Hey, I'm just here to discuss the subject of killing. Of course it takes away a person's life, but i do feel it is necesary in some cases (the death penalty, which i support). I would just like to discuss this particular issue
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:23 pm
Hmm... There are times when taking a life is necessary. I believe that God understands the situations and doesn't hold it against the killer. Military and Law enforcement often have to make a quick decision on their option and often pay heavily for it. The public often feels sorry for the dead suspect no matter their crimes and the circumstances leading up to the face off. They alway call it unfair and cruel. Only in the past few years have soldiers and officers been properly protected from public ridicule and themselves.
I read guns and ammo and many other gun publications and they normally have a section in the back with a few stories of trouble on duty when an officer had to draw his weapon... he may of may not have pulled the trigger in the situation but normally after reading the article I can understand.
In one of the stories two officers were forced to open fire on a subject in the shadow who threatened them directly and repeatedly. After opening fire they found that the subject was doped out on drugs and only had a toy gun. The police department did nothing to protect these men from the public and even released their full names to the press. Both men quit law enforcement and left their families and homes. One was found dead... he used the gun he had on duty that day to kill himself. The other is alive but no more information was given due to the amount of public embarrassment and ridicule the man had received.
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:00 pm
Well, the act of murder is sinful. Killing can be necessary at times. I guess the thing to be discussed then is what is the line between killing and murder?
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:46 pm
I believe the line lies in cognition... as in were you planning on killing the person.
Of course self defense is okay in my book.
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:06 am
I think Murder is more of a premeditated act driven by a hatred.
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:24 pm
So sin is where the intention lies... I have an interesting question for you all. Can you explain the killings that occur in the Old Testament done by God, such as the plague to the Egyptians and the killing of Canaanites? It does seem contradictory to a loving God, but as far as I stand, I believe that those killings were necesary in order to protect the Jews. Your opinions?
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:43 pm
I believe that it was punishment for holding back God's people. Remember at that time the Jews were set apart from the rest fo the world.
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:53 pm
rolandgarros So sin is where the intention lies... I have an interesting question for you all. Can you explain the killings that occur in the Old Testament done by God, such as the plague to the Egyptians and the killing of Canaanites? It does seem contradictory to a loving God, but as far as I stand, I believe that those killings were necesary in order to protect the Jews. Your opinions? I've heard this about a thousand times. lol. In order to claim that God's actions contradict his nature, people usually refer to all the killing in the old testament. A HUGE problem with that is, they're taking scripture out of context. First- Why is it that we think God must follow the same rules man does? God gives life. Thus, he has the right to take it away. Second- Those nations worshiped false gods and lived in detestable ways. God had decided to punish them for their wicked ways. Third- Were those nations to stay, they would corrupt the nation of Israel. Some of them actually did stay because the Israelites didn't do what they were supposed to, and just as God had said, they were corrupted. Here's a truth worth remembering: God is loving, and God is also completely just.
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:01 pm
I beleive that it is bad and sinful to kill but there are certain times were its exceptable! Like if your in the war fighting for your country or in self defense if someone is trying to kill you and you shoot them or something for self defense. And stuff like that. But i dont beleive in like going out for a chain saw masacer just for the fun of it! lol
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:26 pm
brad175 rolandgarros So sin is where the intention lies... I have an interesting question for you all. Can you explain the killings that occur in the Old Testament done by God, such as the plague to the Egyptians and the killing of Canaanites? It does seem contradictory to a loving God, but as far as I stand, I believe that those killings were necesary in order to protect the Jews. Your opinions? I've heard this about a thousand times. lol. In order to claim that God's actions contradict his nature, people usually refer to all the killing in the old testament. A HUGE problem with that is, they're taking scripture out of context. First- Why is it that we think God must follow the same rules man does? God gives life. Thus, he has the right to take it away. Second- Those nations worshiped false gods and lived in detestable ways. God had decided to punish them for their wicked ways. Third- Were those nations to stay, they would corrupt the nation of Israel. Some of them actually did stay because the Israelites didn't do what they were supposed to, and just as God had said, they were corrupted. Here's a truth worth remembering: God is loving, and God is also completely just. so.. (not trying to be the devil's advocate but just questioning your opinion, which i do not accept nor reject)... why doesn't God kill off the radical Muslim nations (note that i specifically refer to the radical, not all Muslim nations)? they are a direct threat to the Israelites, want to kill them off, and some even go as far as wanting to kill innocents around the world?
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:35 pm
I believe that in this time of science God has stepped back to let humnas do as they will.
After all back in the day an entire nation could be mass murdered and few would stop it. God no longer needs to protect his people. The USA and UN does that to an acceptable extent. After all Israel is why we got involved in a lot of the crap in the middle east... we are protecting them constantly.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:05 am
Thats a good point. Before Christ, the Jews were His people and He cared for them in the best way possible. So if they had to take over another people, there was a good reason for it.
As for today, I see it as a test to make the best company in heaven. Think about it, would you want to spend an eternity with a proud, selfish, mean spirited person. I know I wouldn't.
Its because of this that God allows us to make our own decisions, this day and age. That way we sift our selves out.
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:36 pm
Ok, I know I'm not part of the guild, but I'm giving my two cents worth anyways.
Definition of murder:
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).
2. Slang. something extremely difficult or perilous: That final exam was murder!
3. a group or flock of crows.
Definition of killing:
1. the act of a person or thing that kills.
2. the total game killed on a hunt.
3. a quick and unusually large profit or financial gain: a killing in the stock market.
I thought we should really look at what the definition of the two words to start with. It will help keep our minds clear in what our definition of the two is, if this doesn't agree with any of you I think it is important to make sure we are all clear on what the words mean before going too much further.
As far as the killings that God did in the Old Testament, they are very easily explained away. The Israelites where God's chosen people and while he did believe in punishing them for their wickedness (as we see in the numerous successful invasions after King Solomon died) he would still take revenge on those that did harm to his chosen ones, even if he originally used them to punish his loved ones. The very issue that using the Old Testament brings up is obsolete by the very name of it, it is the Old Testament or convent. There is a New one made later in history, hence why that is called the New Testament.
Even that is not completely true, though it is close enough for anyone's purposes. The New Testament is the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise he made with Abraham, saying that through Abraham's decedents he would bless all nations. Once the Jesus came to the earth and died for our sins the Israelites where no longer the chosen ones, although I believe God has still been protecting them because he never forgets or breaks his promises.
But through the cleansing of our sins by the sacrifice at the cross we are all now his chosen people. Even the radical Muslim groups are part of his chosen people. Now a person can still be bad enough for him to punish them or even kill them, but he doesn't do it as directly as we all think he does. I believe that it is all the circumstances leading up to the event that causes the person to be punished.
As far as the more basic problem of murder vs. killing; I think that it is the same as committing suicide to allow someone to kill you when you have the chance to save yourself even if it is by killing them first. By purposefully trying to kill someone for some personal reason you are destroying what God has created.
I'm tired and forgot what the rest of my argument I was going to say was, but I think I at least said something that might be worth thinking about.
Citations from dictionary.com
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:01 pm
I just planly believe that killing is a terrible sin. I believe this because even though a criminal is killed by officers and by the law, it is just comdemning (did I spell it right?) them to Hell. The person could have decided to redeem themselves, but the law is just not willing to take a chance in this world. I hate bringing up the name of the Devil's hideaway, but I thought it necessary to say it as so.
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:50 pm
Don't get me wrong when I say this, but whether or not it is a sin wasn't part of the original question. I do admit that the question has a place here being what this guild is, but as far as talking about the differences between killing and murder it has no grounds.
That being said I would like to point out the very basic similarity between killing and murder; they both take away human life. As far as that goes I think that there is nothing wrong with killing for self defense or the execution of prisoners.
I may be missing something here, but the Bible says nothing against executing prisoners who have earned the sentence. To the contrary, the Old Testament gives us many instances where people should be put to death for what they did. I understand that it was in the old promise and when Jesus came he changed all of that. But the fact of the matter is that there is nothing (unless I simply can't find it) that says it is wrong to put prisoners to death for their crimes or for someone to take away another's life in defending himself or someone else.
Still, I think that is a matter that should be between a person and God. I believe that even that can be forgiven. I also believe that if I killed someone even for a deserving reason that I would be spending a great deal of time speaking with God about it and trying to make it right. I would feel regret for what I had done as far as an act, but not feel sorry for who I did it to. If someone found a way for me to kill them...I don't even know what they would have to do. Probably try to kill me or my family/friends/future wife and kids. It is really a hard topic and could most likely use a thread of its own.
Anyways, sorry for getting off topic there. In a way it does relate though.
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