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Transliteration... |
is quite a tricky feat |
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67% |
[ 21 ] |
is something I could do with both my eyes closed, and hands tied |
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6% |
[ 2 ] |
should probably be done by professional writers |
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25% |
[ 8 ] |
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Total Votes : 31 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:33 pm
Although many claim they can write better stuff, than a lot of the people that transliterate foreign language things, in reality it is a difficult thing to do, and do well. Not only do you have to keep the original translation in mind, but it must be presented in a way not only acceptable to the base, but unalienating, to the common person(a good example, from ends of the spectrum, would be Naruto, and Paranoia Agent). What I want to ask you all, is what are your thoughts on transliteration, and how should it be approached?
As a writer, I would approach it, like any other writing project. It gives me the basics of what the people are saying, and it would be my role, to ensure it is said in a way that rings true to the setting, the story, and the character. Also, to ensure it's NOT just something the kiddies would eat up.(Whoever told the voice actors how to pronounce the Japanese names, and thought 'believe it!' was a good substitute for -ttebayo should be shot)
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:38 pm
I think you mean Translation. Transliteration is the art of taking a language's sounds and putting them in a different alphabet. (think Hiragana to Romaji vs. japanese to English - They're totally different.)
But i get what you mean, translation is a bit of an art, as my japanese classes could tell you. As a language student studying Japanese, you would not believe how many times I yell to the tv and say "your translation is wrong" or something like that. You have to be able to tell what is an object that can be translated, shouldn't be translated, or cannot be defined as anything but itself, and be able to discern people's names, places, things, and all this other stuff, while keeping it appropriate to the target audience (that really should be abandoned, because the profanity in japan is not that bad - it's just that there's a lot of it), and making it fit the mouth movements. (WHEW!)
Then there's the content itself. that's a whole 'nother matter in itself.
But still, there's some nuances that some sentences have that are quite tricky to comprehend... but almost anyone who has a decent education in Japanese can argue with the subtitles/dubbing till they're blue in the face, but it won't change anything.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:05 pm
When translating something from English then I can make myself understood, but it is not always as natural as I would like it to be. But when translating into English then I can be flexible because English is my native language, but Japanese does have somethings that are hard to translate.
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:33 am
Eh~? I guess you would just have to pick up on the people themselves~. I think having good people skills and good observation~. The better you know someone, the better you know what they are thinking and then translation just kind of takes over~. Just to hear the whole story and have a mindset in it would help I guess surprised There is always a moment in our lives where someone says something and it doesn't make sense in a logical way, but you automatically know what they mean by that... and I don't mean poetic... it is just a really messed up way of speaking but, in that messed up way it just sounded very clear or just an action of something making it a statement. Also I would think that in understanding the messed up language someone speaks you, yourself, would have to be a very understanding person and be able to convert it to another persons level of understanding and maybe a similar understanding with the same effect.... I think being a translator is just about being a people person and understanding I guess... in my opinion. '-'
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:47 am
Koiyuki (Whoever told the voice actors how to pronounce the Japanese names, and thought 'believe it!' was a good substitute for -ttebayo should be shot) I know, what's that about? だ copula verb って spoken speech marks ば conditional form よ emphasis marker It means "I'm saying that ~" あそこに行くんだってばよ! "I'm saying that we should go over there!" ほうかげになるってばよ! "I'm saying that I will be the next houkage"
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:56 am
While I'm here, maybe you guys can help me out with a translation assignment I have, it's really doing my head in, it's the lyrics to an Enka song, as my translation professor loves Enka, anyway here it is;
函館の女
"Hakodate woman"
はるばる来たぜ 函館へ さかまく波を のりこえて あとは追うなと 云いながら うしろ姿で 泣いてた君を おもいだすたび 逢いたくて とてもがまんが できなかったよ
"I wanted to meet you, for I had little self control, the figure who remembered the journey and was crying behind the after spray, while warning not to follow the remains of the great surging wave that came riding across to Hakodate from a great distance."
函館山の 頂で 七つの星も 呼んでいる そんな気がして きてみたが 灯りさざめく 松風町は 君の噂(うわさ)も きえはてて 沖の潮風 こころにしみる
"On the peak of Mt Hakodate the seven stars are calling out, I tried to have such a feeling, but voices come alight. In Matsuzechou, the rumors of you have vanished completely, and the salty breeze pierces my heart"
迎えに 来たぜ 函館へ 見はてぬ夢と 知りながら 忘れられずに とんできた ここは北国 しぶきもこおる どこにいるのか この町の 一目だけでも 逢いたかったよ
"While knowing of a dream I ignored and struck by the inability to forget, I came to Hakodate to meet you. This is the northern country, even ocean spray freezes. Where are you? I wanted to meet you at just my first look in this town"
That last part is really frustrating me, I can't seem to put it into good English, any help would be appreciated
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:41 pm
Why isn't this topic about transliteration? :'< I've got a lot to say about that subject. XD
I hate people who write oo/ou as ô, all long o:s as oo or mix upp oo and ou. For example there's a BIG difference between TOU (for example onyomi for east) and TOO (ten).
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Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:06 pm
Considering that most the textbooks and beginner books for Japanese have standardized that long "o's" (ou) are written as "ō" for romaji, I'd say that it's pretty easy to understand. One just needs to be more careful when you're writing the romanized characters yourself for clarification. As the "tou" and "too" can make a vast difference in meaning, as you've pointed out. Though, if you're going to be learning to write the language it would behoove you to learn the basics of hirigana and katakana so that reading such items doesn't get confusing to comprehend. blaugh
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:31 am
Why use ô from the beginning then? The whole use of this is begging for people to get it wrong! If this is used for making people pronounce words more correctly it's just crap, I mean, if you're going to learn a new language you've got to learn new pronouncation rules. This is just creating dyslectics!
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:18 pm
Why "ō" is used for the English learning Japanese is because if you look in any English dictionary, that is how an extended vowel is denoted.
Also based on what you were saying in one of the word game threads, I'd say it's not the problem of the "ō" being used in books/textbook, it's just the issue of foreigners being uncertain if a word uses only "cho" or if it uses "chō". It's whether or not to take on the an extra "o" or "u" when writing things like 'shachou' or "chouchou". Another item that can confused foreigners is when to use the small "tsu". It's basically the trial and error or learning a language. This does not cause dyslexia. It's also more toward the uncertainty if it has an extended vowel or not. Say, for example the uncertainty a person might have in adding an extra "i" to "tannoshii" to make the right word. In Japanese it's more common to have the "ou" vowel extensions but all types of foreigners will struggle with when to use and not to use vowel extensions because we are not used to them and it's hard to hear if it's an extended vowel or a short vowel when used in a sentence. It's sort of like the saying: "I before e except after c or as sounded as "a" as in neighbor and weigh" for English. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I get confused whether or not to make something a long vowel or not, and it's not because of my textbooks, WHICH uses hirigana, katakana, and kanji, but because I'm not sure if the word has an extended vowel when I write the word myself.
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:49 am
Hmm ... D: The problem I was talking about is only the difference between oo and ou, in other words, only long vowel combinations with o. If you only write ô you can't possibly know if the correct spelling is oo or ou. And that's why those dictionaries suck. You can't possibly think that's the best way.
But the problem you're talking about is of course another tricky one, but I wouldn't say that foreigners are unused to the vowel extensions. Long vowels do exist in English, compare bloke (long) and block (short). Altough it's marked in a special way in English, it's much easier in Japanese because they only (usually, except for ou and ei then) double the vowel in question. (I think they do the same in Dutch by the way.)
I do agree with you that's hard to hear when consonants are doubled in Japanese, but I guess it'll be easier for you to hear the difference if you practise writing down what you hear a lot. ^^
But the problem with い is easier if you simple learn the rule of adjectives. There are two types of adjectives in Japanese な-adjectives and い-adjectives, of course it's still hard to know if you have to write one or two I:s in roomaji, but if you think of what you would write in kana this becomes easier because it has to end with an い. For example: たのしい、 むずかしい .
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:09 am
geishaboy While I'm here, maybe you guys can help me out with a translation assignment I have, it's really doing my head in, it's the lyrics to an Enka song, as my translation professor loves Enka, anyway here it is; 函館の女 "Hakodate woman" はるばる来たぜ 函館へ さかまく波を のりこえて あとは追うなと 云いながら うしろ姿で 泣いてた君を おもいだすたび 逢いたくて とてもがまんが できなかったよ "I wanted to meet you, 'cause I had little control, over the figure who remembered the journey, crying behind the after spray, while she warned me not to follow the remains of the great surging wave, which rode from afar, to Hakodate." 函館山の 頂で 七つの星も 呼んでいる そんな気がして きてみたが 灯りさざめく 松風町は 君の噂(うわさ)も きえはてて 沖の潮風 こころにしみる "On the peak of it's mountain, seven stars called out. I've tried to summon such feelings, but the voices come alight. In Matsuzechou, rumors of you have completely gone, and the salty breeze pierces my heart" 迎えに 来たぜ 函館へ 見はてぬ夢と 知りながら 忘れられずに とんできた ここは北国 しぶきもこおる どこにいるのか この町の 一目だけでも 逢いたかったよ "While knowing of a dream I ignored and was unable to forget, I came here to meet you. In this the northern country, even ocean spray freezes. Where are you? I wanted to meet you at just my first glance at this town" That last part is really frustrating me, I can't seem to put it into good English, any help would be appreciated It is done. Let me know what you think
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:44 pm
Kita Cloud Why "ō" is used for the English learning Japanese is because if you look in any English dictionary, that is how an extended vowel is denoted. Also based on what you were saying in one of the word game threads, I'd say it's not the problem of the "ō" being used in books/textbook, it's just the issue of foreigners being uncertain if a word uses only "cho" or if it uses "chō". It's whether or not to take on the an extra "o" or "u" when writing things like 'shachou' or "chouchou". Another item that can confused foreigners is when to use the small "tsu". It's basically the trial and error or learning a language. This does not cause dyslexia. It's also more toward the uncertainty if it has an extended vowel or not. Say, for example the uncertainty a person might have in adding an extra "i" to "tannoshii" to make the right word. In Japanese it's more common to have the "ou" vowel extensions but all types of foreigners will struggle with when to use and not to use vowel extensions because we are not used to them and it's hard to hear if it's an extended vowel or a short vowel when used in a sentence. It's sort of like the saying: "I before e except after c or as sounded as "a" as in neighbor and weigh" for English. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I get confused whether or not to make something a long vowel or not, and it's not because of my textbooks, WHICH uses hirigana, katakana, and kanji, but because I'm not sure if the word has an extended vowel when I write the word myself. You think all of you have problems - try using a textbook that made up it's own system specifically because the existing systems was not... adequate. Imagine if you will having the word Kanji read like Kanzi and chotto read like tyotto. That is really messed up. [will add later.]
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:08 pm
megaman2040 Kita Cloud Why "ō" is used for the English learning Japanese is because if you look in any English dictionary, that is how an extended vowel is denoted. Also based on what you were saying in one of the word game threads, I'd say it's not the problem of the "ō" being used in books/textbook, it's just the issue of foreigners being uncertain if a word uses only "cho" or if it uses "chō". It's whether or not to take on the an extra "o" or "u" when writing things like 'shachou' or "chouchou". Another item that can confused foreigners is when to use the small "tsu". It's basically the trial and error or learning a language. This does not cause dyslexia. It's also more toward the uncertainty if it has an extended vowel or not. Say, for example the uncertainty a person might have in adding an extra "i" to "tannoshii" to make the right word. In Japanese it's more common to have the "ou" vowel extensions but all types of foreigners will struggle with when to use and not to use vowel extensions because we are not used to them and it's hard to hear if it's an extended vowel or a short vowel when used in a sentence. It's sort of like the saying: "I before e except after c or as sounded as "a" as in neighbor and weigh" for English. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I get confused whether or not to make something a long vowel or not, and it's not because of my textbooks, WHICH uses hirigana, katakana, and kanji, but because I'm not sure if the word has an extended vowel when I write the word myself. You think all of you have problems - try using a textbook that made up it's own system specifically because the existing systems was not... adequate. Imagine if you will having the word Kanji read like Kanzi and chotto read like tyotto. That is really messed up. [will add later.] That's not an own transliteration system, that's actually a transliteration system called Kunrei-shiki. The most common one, where the words you've written would be written as kanji and chotto, is called Hepburn-shiki. Hepburn is better for foreigners learning Japanese because it focuses on the pronouncation, but kunrei focuses on logic, or however I should put it ... For example: In hepburn H is added in the S-row version of I, shi, but in kunrei it's simply si making the s-row become: sa si su se so. The same goes for tsu, which is simply written tu in kunrei, making the t-row ta ti tu te to, note that chi is spelled as ti here. Why have two systems then? Well, hepburn unfortunately has some flaws. The kana づ and ず are both written zu in hepburn, but in kunrei they're different (du and zu). Because of this you have to write in kunrei sometimes when you type Japanese in roomaji on a computer to get some of those characters.
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:46 am
Lysse megaman2040 Kita Cloud Why "ō" is used for the English learning Japanese is because if you look in any English dictionary, that is how an extended vowel is denoted. Also based on what you were saying in one of the word game threads, I'd say it's not the problem of the "ō" being used in books/textbook, it's just the issue of foreigners being uncertain if a word uses only "cho" or if it uses "chō". It's whether or not to take on the an extra "o" or "u" when writing things like 'shachou' or "chouchou". Another item that can confused foreigners is when to use the small "tsu". It's basically the trial and error or learning a language. This does not cause dyslexia. It's also more toward the uncertainty if it has an extended vowel or not. Say, for example the uncertainty a person might have in adding an extra "i" to "tannoshii" to make the right word. In Japanese it's more common to have the "ou" vowel extensions but all types of foreigners will struggle with when to use and not to use vowel extensions because we are not used to them and it's hard to hear if it's an extended vowel or a short vowel when used in a sentence. It's sort of like the saying: "I before e except after c or as sounded as "a" as in neighbor and weigh" for English. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I get confused whether or not to make something a long vowel or not, and it's not because of my textbooks, WHICH uses hirigana, katakana, and kanji, but because I'm not sure if the word has an extended vowel when I write the word myself. You think all of you have problems - try using a textbook that made up it's own system specifically because the existing systems was not... adequate. Imagine if you will having the word Kanji read like Kanzi and chotto read like tyotto. That is really messed up. [will add later.] That's not an own transliteration system, that's actually a transliteration system called Kunrei-shiki. The most common one, where the words you've written would be written as kanji and chotto, is called Hepburn-shiki. Hepburn is better for foreigners learning Japanese because it focuses on the pronouncation, but kunrei focuses on logic, or however I should put it ... For example: In hepburn H is added in the S-row version of I, shi, but in kunrei it's simply si making the s-row become: sa si su se so. The same goes for tsu, which is simply written tu in kunrei, making the t-row ta ti tu te to, note that chi is spelled as ti here. Why have two systems then? Well, hepburn unfortunately has some flaws. The kana づ and ず are both written zu in hepburn, but in kunrei they're different (du and zu). Because of this you have to write in kunrei sometimes when you type Japanese in romaji on a computer to get some of those characters. Except that, up until I took Japanese at my college, I had no idea that this system actually existed, much less was used. And Native Japanese people actually use hepburn-shiki for roma, not this screwed up (<--opinion!) system. Everyone in my japanese classes hates this kunrei system. And on top of that, the book's author, Elenor Hartz Jorden, added an accent system to the roma, emphasizing the idea that speech pitch accents are very important. (which they are not, because I did just fine in Japan without knowing all of that.) and I get what you mean, having to type out du and di to get 「づ」と「ぢ」 but aside from that, those symbols really aren't used in kana, i've only seen (d)zu used in tsudzuku (続く) and ki ga dzuita (気が付いた).
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