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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:08 pm
Ithink I'm in need of a good debate, and I've never found any one who agreed with me on this one. You see, I sincerely dislike Dumbledore. I think he is, pardon my language, a manipulative b*****d.
For one thing, he's had Harry living with the Durseleys for years. Don't give me that 'It's for Harry's protection' crap, becuase at the time, Voldemort wasn't even around. I'm sure there are plenty of families that would have taken him in, and he would have had a decent childhood. But, see, when Harry got to Hogwarts, he was thrilled, and he was absolutely dedicated to Dumbledore for giving him somewhere better then the Dursleys to live. Dumbledore had Harry eating out of his hand, just like he wanted.
Dumbledore is using Harry. He knows Harry can defeat Voldemort, he doesn't really care what it does to Harry himself, he's just molding Harry to make him the perfect tool, the perfect weapon.
And so he lets Harry and his friends get away with whatever they want, so that Harry doesn't suspect a thing. And Sirius' death, that too was engineered by Dumbledore so that Harry would have more reason to be angry with Voldemort, and with himself.
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:15 pm
No I don't think he is using Harry. Well he knows he is the only one that can defeat him. But he loves Harry and wants to protect him.
Myself I like Dumbledore very much. He is funny, calm and kinda, cool. I find myself always smiling when I read about Dumbledore in the books.
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Baby Phantomhive Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:15 pm
That's great, you sound like a real Slytherin with this compaint. 10 points to Slytherin House!
Back to topic, I see your point. Personally, I think Dumbledore is a fuddy-duddy old man, who feels responsible for the position he's put Harry in. I think he has Harry's best interests at heart, he wants Harry to grow and become stronger than himself.
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:42 pm
Dumbledore may have Harry's best interests at heart, but as we've seen, withholding information has a disasterous effect upon people. Omissions, lies, half-truths, it is still harmful.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:42 am
i belive he is useing harry like a pupet
so i agree with Empress_Kat on this one.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:12 pm
rin-fluffy i belive he is useing harry like a pupet so i agree with Empress_Kat on this one. Wow, people are actually agreeing with me. It's like an alternate demension. Cool.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:52 pm
I see your points, but couldn't Dumbledore be using Harry because he himself (Dumbledore) is involved in the dark arts? Its a path that I don't think many people have looked.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:28 pm
Although you do bring up some good points. I do not agree.
He left Harry with the dursleys because, growing up with everbody praising you, and growing up being famous, would truly currupt you. Dumbledore was smart enough not to do that, so he left him in a family where he would grow up feeling unloved, and striving for love instead of hating.
And using Harry as tool? Yes and no. He does know Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort, and he is doing his best to prepare Harry to do what is need. But not as a tool, not for his own selfish ways, but so they can save the wizarding world from Voldemort.
And Sirius' death engeneered? No no, deffinately not true. But I want to know what makes you think that.
And dumbledore gives Harry his freedom because he does hold a place for harry in his heart, because Harry is what will save them all.
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Magnetic Conversationalist
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:54 pm
BeeBrittney Although you do bring up some good points. I do not agree.
He left Harry with the dursleys because, growing up with everbody praising you, and growing up being famous, would truly currupt you. Dumbledore was smart enough not to do that, so he left him in a family where he would grow up feeling unloved, and striving for love instead of hating.
And using Harry as tool? Yes and no. He does know Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort, and he is doing his best to prepare Harry to do what is need. But not as a tool, not for his own selfish ways, but so they can save the wizarding world from Voldemort.
And Sirius' death engeneered? No no, deffinately not true. But I want to know what makes you think that.
And dumbledore gives Harry his freedom because he does hold a place for harry in his heart, because Harry is what will save them all. Dumbledore is, perhaps doing worse than using and manipulating Harry. Harry feels like there is no choice for him, when there may be one. Omissions to me are almost worse than the manipulations that people are seeing from Dumbledore. Omissions are what cause things like Sirius' death. If Harry would've known why Voldermort was sending the visions, perhaps Sirius' death could've been avoided.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:56 pm
@ DarkAngel
Yes that is true, but it was Harry's fault for not telling Dumbledore about them. he acted on impulse instead of getting things stright at first. Sirius' death could have been avoided, but let us not forget, Dumbledore had NOTHING to do with it.
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Magnetic Conversationalist
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:00 pm
Dumbledore made a misstake true. Well it's absolutly normal to make misstakes. But still he had tried to keep Sirius alive, he had kinda helped him escape. He did not kill him, Bellatrix did.
(Then even if Sirius hand't died that way, he would ave died anyway. Jo said we should know why I died. Something like that)
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:00 pm
Do you think that no decent family would have taken Harry? Say the Weasleys? They would not have let Harry Grow up arrogant, but he would have grown up loved, not abused. I can see his original purposes for putting Harry with the Dursleys, but you'd think he'd check and discover the abuse?
Sirius. I hate him. But I'm going to ignore that, because I hate Albus, too.
Dumbledore knew that Harry, as he was for most of the 5th book, was not in a position to defeat Voldie. Dumbledore also knew that if someone as close to Harry as Siri was died, Harry would have something personal to want revenge for. Sirius was not advancing Dumbledore's plans at all, he wasn't a very atrategic person. It's like sacrificing a pawn in chess.
Dumbledore knew Sirius' personality. He knew that Siri would not stay cooped up in Grimmauld Place. Sirius was all alone with Kreacher and his mother's portrait for company, I'm surprised he didn't leave earlier. Dumbledore could have arranged for people to visit him more often or something. And Harry. Harry needed to know Occulumency. So who does Albus the Wise assign to teach it? The one teacher Harry hates. Harry is an idiotic little boy, when faced with Severus, he isn't even going to try and learn it. And he doesn't. Are you telling me the Dumbledore, in all his wisdom, has no skill in Occulumency? And nor do any other teachers or members of the Order?
It goes deeper then this, I think, but I'm too tired to think, just now.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:09 pm
Yes, but Dumbledore can't look into the future. He might not have known that Sirius was going to go and do something rash. Even though Dumbledore knew the man's personality, he couldn't tell if it was really going to happen or not.
Sanpe might have been the best person to teach Harry Occulumency. He might have been good in that area of magic. dumbledore himself might not have been that good. The other teachers in the Order might not have been able to teach Harry because they were doing something else.
As for people visiting Sirius, some of them can't. People in the Order have jobs they need to do. People might have dropped by and chatted with Sirius so that he wasn't completely alone.
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:12 pm
Yes. They would have taken him in that is true. But still, he would grow up in a world where everybody knew his name, where he wasa hero for doing nothing. That can get to your head, that can make you think your supirior. Dumbledore didn't want that, because thinking yourself as "better" or "more powerful" is what makes you thirst for power... it makes you like Voldemort. Dumbledore would have let that happen, he is not stupid.
But sacraficing that pawn now, and later in the game you might not have anyone to defend your king, and thus check mate, you lose. Dumbledore wouldn't give up Sirius just to make Harry have a thirst for revenge. There would be no point, it could tottaly backfire on him. Make Harry want revenge for all the wrong reasons.
It ws Harry's fault that he didn't learn. He was the one who let himself get tangled into a situation he could no longer control, makign Snape act out of impulse. But there was nobody else to teach Harry.
But please, explain everything, it's conversatiosn like these that get to the point of everything.
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Magnetic Conversationalist
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:49 pm
BeeBrittney Yes. They would have taken him in that is true. But still, he would grow up in a world where everybody knew his name, where he wasa hero for doing nothing. That can get to your head, that can make you think your supirior. Dumbledore didn't want that, because thinking yourself as "better" or "more powerful" is what makes you thirst for power... it makes you like Voldemort. Dumbledore would have let that happen, he is not stupid. Okay, so if Dumbledore doesn't want Harry thinking of himself as 'better' then all the other kids, why does he let Harry get away with things all the other kids wouldn't be allowed to? And I don't think that's why Voldemort thirst for power, but that's another discussion altogether... one that I might just go start... BeeBrittney
But sacraficing that pawn now, and later in the game you might not have anyone to defend your king, and thus check mate, you lose. Dumbledore wouldn't give up Sirius just to make Harry have a thirst for revenge. There would be no point, it could tottaly backfire on him. Make Harry want revenge for all the wrong reasons. But see, according to my theory, that's just it. Dumbledore doesn't care why Harry wants reenge, or what happens to Harry after he gets it. Whatever will make Harry the sharpest tool, that's what Dumbledore wants.
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