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 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:01 pm
Since I finally got around to reading the translation of the game (available here: http://zarathustra.kaisho.org/ ) I figured I'd try to start up a discussion about it here. First off I have to say I'd much rather have seen this in Episode 2 than the crazy WTF?! fest that was disk 2 -- in other words it was interesting and stuff actually happens. But enough of the Episode 2 whining and on to the stuff of a more spoilery nature. Spoilers for Pied Piper Being a rather big fan of the whole URTV thing, naturally Yuriev's involvement in this story was one of the things that really caught my attention. The first thing that really supprised me was when I finaly started thinking about where PP fits into the overall timeline -- it's something like 100-150 years in the past (from Episode 1 that is) -- which would make Yuriev well over 150 by the time he shows up in Episode 2! And then there was the whole thing about the sheer ammount of political influence he had, which is making me suspect he's a much more important character than I had first thought (Episode 2 gave me the impression that his only real purpose storywise was to create the URTV). I'm really starting to think he's more-or-less a rival of Wilhelm's (especially if you concider some of the later sections where it basically explains that Yuriev's goal in whatever it is he's doing boils down to trying to prevent the end of the world where as Wilhelm's ultimate desire is just that, the end of the world).
And then there's U-DO, 3 games, an anime, a few books, a manga, and a pile of "official" doujinshi and we still don't know what the hell it is. Though I will say that Pied Piper certainly shed some light on the nature of the thing, but I have to say I still don't get it. My understanding of it at this point ammounts to: it's a big, evil, amorphous blob of purple that lives in the UMN or Old Miltia and makes people go crazy by showing/telling them about the end of the world (ok this just occured to me, but does that remind anyone of Nephilim? I mean with the whole showing people the end of the world and not exactly existing in the conventional sense? eh maybe I'm just crazy...).
Oh and was anyone mildly ammused at the fact that Pope Julius was assassinated? I wonder if his last words were "Et tu, Brute Voyager?" Ok that was just stupid. I'll shut up while I'm ahead - now people, discuss things!
---
And just a quick note about spoilers in this topic, since it's a discussion topic and spoiler warnings can get rather annoying to deal with, just put a little warning either at the start of your post or before the part that might contain spoilers -- don't bother with anything elaborate like whiting out text, it just breaks the flow of conversation. Episodes 1, 2, the ODM don't require specific warnings (ie. if you're just discussing one of those you don't have to bother with a spoiler warning in this topic unless the post also has Pied Piper spoilers).
Ok! Discuss things!
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:35 pm
This is a spoiler.
I really didn't sit through it and read the whole thing, it boarded me, I just read through the summary of what provoked Ziggy to commit suicide (because that I was told is the true point of this story) which I found very interesting, and I hope if anything they continue that in Ep. 3 (if he's still in it, I never beat Ep. 2 yet). I was also told there is a reference in there reguarding chaos and he is referred to as Yeshua, but there was alot and I didn't read that much.
The ony thing I want to lament about is how incredibly stupid mobile gaming is. Seriously. Take the damn story and put it in Ep. 3, there, done.
That's about it.
Pied Piper. Heh... strange...
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:33 pm
I've been wanting a translation of that for so long. x_x
Thanks for posting it. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:07 pm
kp606 This is a spoiler. I really didn't sit through it and read the whole thing, it boarded me, I just read through the summary of what provoked Ziggy to commit suicide (because that I was told is the true point of this story) which I found very interesting, and I hope if anything they continue that in Ep. 3 (if he's still in it, I never beat Ep. 2 yet). I was also told there is a reference in there reguarding chaos and he is referred to as Yeshua, but there was alot and I didn't read that much. The ony thing I want to lament about is how incredibly stupid mobile gaming is. Seriously. Take the damn story and put it in Ep. 3, there, done. That's about it. Pied Piper. Heh... strange... Yeah, it is rather frustrating that they chucked such an important portion of story off to a cellphone minigame. Especially concidering that there was more plot development in Pied Piper than Episode 2. Originally I wasn't too interested in reading it because I'm not particularly interested in Ziggy's side story, but then I heard it had some other stuff in it that I'm more a fan of *cough*Yuriev*cough* so I decided to sit down and read the whole thing because I was rather bored at the time. The first chunk is pretty dull, but by the time you hit the second half of chapter 2 it really starts to get good. It's really not as long as it looks so if you can get through the first bit chances are you'll be pleasently supprised by the end. Spoliery bits follow chaos actually makes an appearance in the game as the "Mysterious Voice" in one part (we know it's him from some screencaps...), which brings up some questions about what chaos really is and what his motives are again but doesn't really shed more light on them than episode 2 did (basically that he has some relation to Wilhelm and that they probably don't like eachother). Wilhelm makes some comments later in the game that pretty closely mirror his speechy thing at the end of episode 2 when he's "talking" to chaos (just that it's in future tense as opposed to present since stuff hasn't happend yet). Concidering what they left out of episode 2 they do have a lot of material to work with and it seems possible that some of the elements of Pied Piper could easily be worked into the next installment (they'd either have to put some of it in or have some extensive UMN database entries or people are gonna be pissed and confused) especially concidering how a good deal of the underlying political stuff going on in the background with Yuriev, the Immigrant Fleet and Wilhelm is starting to come to a head in the current story arc. IF they manage to cram in 75% of the cut material and some stuff from Pied Piper into Episode 3, it's going to be one hell of a game. But, not to spiral into an "OMGWTF EP2 SuXX00rzzz" type or rant, concidering Monolith's recent track record I'm not about to get my hopes up very much.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:37 pm
shojokakumeii00 kp606 This is a spoiler. I really didn't sit through it and read the whole thing, it boarded me, I just read through the summary of what provoked Ziggy to commit suicide (because that I was told is the true point of this story) which I found very interesting, and I hope if anything they continue that in Ep. 3 (if he's still in it, I never beat Ep. 2 yet). I was also told there is a reference in there reguarding chaos and he is referred to as Yeshua, but there was alot and I didn't read that much. The ony thing I want to lament about is how incredibly stupid mobile gaming is. Seriously. Take the damn story and put it in Ep. 3, there, done. That's about it. Pied Piper. Heh... strange... Yeah, it is rather frustrating that they chucked such an important portion of story off to a cellphone minigame. Especially concidering that there was more plot development in Pied Piper than Episode 2. Originally I wasn't too interested in reading it because I'm not particularly interested in Ziggy's side story, but then I heard it had some other stuff in it that I'm more a fan of *cough*Yuriev*cough* so I decided to sit down and read the whole thing because I was rather bored at the time. The first chunk is pretty dull, but by the time you hit the second half of chapter 2 it really starts to get good. It's really not as long as it looks so if you can get through the first bit chances are you'll be pleasently supprised by the end. Spoliery bits follow chaos actually makes an appearance in the game as the "Mysterious Voice" in one part (we know it's him from some screencaps...), which brings up some questions about what chaos really is and what his motives are again but doesn't really shed more light on them than episode 2 did (basically that he has some relation to Wilhelm and that they probably don't like eachother). Wilhelm makes some comments later in the game that pretty closely mirror his speechy thing at the end of episode 2 when he's "talking" to chaos (just that it's in future tense as opposed to present since stuff hasn't happend yet). Concidering what they left out of episode 2 they do have a lot of material to work with and it seems possible that some of the elements of Pied Piper could easily be worked into the next installment (they'd either have to put some of it in or have some extensive UMN database entries or people are gonna be pissed and confused) especially concidering how a good deal of the underlying political stuff going on in the background with Yuriev, the Immigrant Fleet and Wilhelm is starting to come to a head in the current story arc. IF they manage to cram in 75% of the cut material and some stuff from Pied Piper into Episode 3, it's going to be one hell of a game. But, not to spiral into an "OMGWTF EP2 SuXX00rzzz" type or rant, concidering Monolith's recent track record I'm not about to get my hopes up very much. There is to many politics and to little fan service. I don't know what happened between Monolith and the original three writers, but Monolith, and all game companies, have an oath to gamers to make a quality product. If they drastically change around what already is, then they have failed us. So I just hope Ep. 2 is the result of some confusion, and that what was taken out is returned. I feel we are owed that. I enjoy so much the Xenosaga story, it's really helped my realize a possible career option (writing) but I mean with Pied Pier alone... they story is just getting clipped here and there, and they're deciding to throw us bones every know and then... As long as KOS-MOS doesn't make a cameo appearance in Soul Calibur III... there's still hope...
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:32 pm
This post will include Pied Piper spoilers. Well, I just finished finished reading through all of it. And, I really enjoyed reading it. Of course, that may be because I'm a huge fan of Zig. So the game's name was based on Voyager.. I didn't expect that. It's beginning to look like all the Testaments had a rough time. The minute Elrich 'died' so to speak, I guessed he was Voyager. And so I knew Michael and Bagus were going to die. It was kinda sad knowing it was leading up to that. I felt so sorry for Bagus. x_x Lactis has a dreadful name. The thing about him+Canaan was interesting. So, does Wilhelm still have control over Canaan? Or has chaos somehow managed to-... Speculation. I always thought Zig's uniform had been issued by Ziggurat Industries. I suppose that was daft of me. I wasn't expecting him to be wearing more or less the same uniform in the Pied Piper. XD; And I wondered why he sounded uncomfortable when talking to his son in the episode one flashback. 'Twas nice to have that cleared up. Scientia. As far as I remember, it hasn't been mentioned in episode one or two. Perhaps there may be mention of it in later episodes? I'd be interested in it. -- I remember being kinda aghed at Ziggy for not putting all his effort into defeating Margulis back in episode one. But, after reading the ODM, I was reminded about the fact that he's programmed that way. I'm sorry for doubting you, Ziggy. D: shojokakumeii00 I'm not particularly interested in Ziggy's side story T__T Eh, well. I'm happier being one of the few Ziggy fans, I guess.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:21 pm
Spoilers and stuff Ziggurat the Eighth The minute Elrich 'died' so to speak, I guessed he was Voyager. And so I knew Michael and Bagus were going to die. It was kinda sad knowing it was leading up to that. I felt so sorry for Bagus. x_x Lactis has a dreadful name. The thing about him+Canaan was interesting. So, does Wilhelm still have control over Canaan? Or has chaos somehow managed to-... Speculation. Yeah, I figured that must have been what was going on when he woke up from being in the freezer. O.o Poor Bagus, I liked him too. I've been wondering what was going on with the whole realians equipped with "Cannan' thing, I still don't really understand it (my only guess is it has something to do with how Wilhelm finds people with "shining wills" or something) but I have my suspicions about a Lactis --> Cannan (the one from ep2 that is) relationship of some sort, but who knows. Ziggurat the Eighth shojokakumeii00 I'm not particularly interested in Ziggy's side story T__T Eh, well. I'm happier being one of the few Ziggy fans, I guess. Well it's not that I don't like Ziggy, it's just that it seemed like most of his story was just summed up and pushed off to the side in a few lines in episode 1 (I think in his intro scene they pretty much get the meat of it out there - he killed himself and was revived against his wishes) so it never really occured to me that there might be something more interesting about it (and it turned out to be very interesting!). Basically I never had much interest in Pied Piper because I thought it was just going to be telling us things we already knew from episode 1 and chucking in some melodrama and angst to back it up, but after reading the script I'm rather happy to admit that I was wrong. ^.^
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:04 pm
shojokakumeii00 Well it's not that I don't like Ziggy, it's just that it seemed like most of his story was just summed up and pushed off to the side in a few lines in episode 1 (I think in his intro scene they pretty much get the meat of it out there - he killed himself and was revived against his wishes) so it never really occured to me that there might be something more interesting about it (and it turned out to be very interesting!). Basically I never had much interest in Pied Piper because I thought it was just going to be telling us things we already knew from episode 1 and chucking in some melodrama and angst to back it up, but after reading the script I'm rather happy to admit that I was wrong. ^.^ ^_^ The fact that he killed himself immediatly made me interested in him. I wanted to know why and find out more about him. And shtoof. He got neglected in the anime. Virgil had more ness than Zig did. Of course, I like Virgil, so it was nice to have him around for so long in it. And I'm rambling onto something entirely different. When did you start liking Yuriev? And why? (Out of curiousity. If I may ask? @_@) Episode two didn't give him much credit, and, I think I was too busy being worried about Gaignun whenever he appeared. XD;
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:29 pm
Ziggurat the Eighth When did you start liking Yuriev? And why? (Out of curiousity. If I may ask? @_@) Episode two didn't give him much credit, and, I think I was too busy being worried about Gaignun whenever he appeared. XD; I'm really not sure. I think part of it was Ekplixi's fanfic Stamina (I highly recomend it to anyone who hasn't read it -- linky: http://www.syldra.net/xenofiction/yurievjuli.htm ) and just my general obsession with the URTV (I'm also a total Citrine fan and she shows up for like 2 minutes...I blame it on the japanese fanart sites) and the other part was actually Pied Piper. I was always sort of interested in the character because he seemed interesting and creepy and weird so I wanted to know more about him (and how/why he came up with the URTV and all that good stuff) and Pied Piper shed a lot of light on his character/motives and I'm a big fan of the mad scientist archetype so I guess that was the kicker. He seems like the anti-Wilhelm (in a different way from chaos) and something about that just makes me think he's incredibly awsomeful, that and the mad scientist thing (I dunno something about the elaborate behind the scenes scheming and stuff is really interesting to me). That ended up being a lot longer than I thougnt it'd be... Wee!
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:35 pm
Yeah. He is pretty interesting. Not many people can say they've partially taken over Gaignun's body, been alive for over 150 years, and met U-DO. XD; And even though he is apparently wanting to prevent the end of the world, he still seems like a villain. Yet Wilhelm doesn't. Which is odd. But good?
It'd be nice to hear more about him, like you said, and finding out how he came up with the idea of the URTVs. 3nodding
So many characters, stories and questions. It's worrying. WILL they be able to fit it all in? Will they even try? I mean, even the Godwins. Who experimented on them, and why?
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:30 pm
Yeah I know! There are just so many characters and backstories and subplots (and no really strong main plot/quest to speak of yet, everything so far has been trying to figure out what happend in the past and who/what is *cough*chaos*cough*) I've been starting to think they should just do several spin-off games/animes/mangas/etc about each of the characters' backstories (kind of like Pied Piper but even more in-depth) that gives all the extra information that fans of those particular characters (and I guess the series in general) could want even though it might not be so important to understanding the rest of the main series (in other words, some of the information is revealed in the context of the main storyline, but because of the sheer number of characters and backstories and subplots they'll never be able to tell all of them in their entirety in the context of the main storyline without making an obscene number of games or dragging the main storyline out even more than it alreay has been). And plus if they used all the material they have to create side media-things it would probably bring in more money and help hype the main series even more.
I've been wondering about the Godwins too. I have a feeling whatever company it was that was experimenting on them had some connection to the whole Hyams, U-TIC, Mizrahi, Yuriev group (I have no idea what to call the whole chunk of oragnizations that all seem to be under the same umbrella group... was it ORUMUS or were they just a controling interest in the group? I dunno...). Hmm... maybe not, I just checked the database entry about them and it couldn't have been on Miltia because they were rescued 12 years ago (though born on Miltia) though it seems the big scary umbrella organization of doom still existed then so I guess it's not impossible. Maybe Vector had something to do with it? Though they seem to be more focused on robots than biological humans (unlike the other organization)... Hmmm...
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:22 pm
The main story does seem lacking. Right now my theory is they're ALL the second coming of Jesus Christ.
xd
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:01 pm
I don't really mind whether they drag the game story out. Series are nicer than single games. I think, anyway. The same with books. It's always more enjoyable to have a number of them, than a stand-alone book.
But having spin-off games and shtoof would be fine too. I'd be happy as long as they do one or the other. Or both. X3
Maybe Yuriev is looking for immortality (or perhaps a higher existance), somewhat like Voyager was. "It is possible to consider that the ability of these 3 URTVs is the power to fight against death." I know he seems to have gained it, but, perhaps it is only partial? Gaignun did manage to shoot him. He'd want U-DO destroyed not for heroic reasons, but because it's a threat to he who wants to live forever?
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:03 am
Remember U-DO is some sort of 'consciousness' In my opinion Xenosaga is kind of going in the same direction of Final Fantasy X.
Take Yevon for example...
Yevon was a summoner, he hated war and fighting...so he decided to punish all those by summoning 'Sin' And he would continually summon 'Sin' until the hero's of Final Fantasy X stepped in.
Now here's U-DO...
Like Yevon it is a consciousness... some wave form consciousness that can corrupt people (Albedo) Okay so since U-DO and Yevon are just about the same lets go unto the evil part about it?
(It's been a while since I played both games I've been working so forgive me for any information that may be wrong)
U-DO = evil
Yevon = evil
They both want to be destroyed....their destroyers?
U-DO vs. KOS-MOS and U.R.T.V.
Yevon vs. Summoner Yuna and gang
Since U-DO is a collective consciousness wave form, I'm pretty sure it wants to choke the planet and the universe which Shoko-sama is right about probably; Wilhelm wants the same too, but we don't know yet do to lack of evidence.
Yevon's goal was to destroy Spira as much as it could until a Summoner would stand up to it. Now...remember when the U.R.T.V were going to face U-DO in that chamber thing? Rubedo (Jr.) figured out that they would sacrifice the entire planet just to stop U-DO, I think he was afraid to die. So it's kind of the same, Summoner for the freedom of Spira...
U.R.T.V. + a planet for the freedom of the Universe.
The difference between these two games?
Xenosaga = No Yevon-like religion saying (YOU HAVE TO DIE TO SAVE US!) Only Yuriev saying "Die for the Universe." I'm sure Yuriev was saddened by it, because if you look at it, Yuriev and the remaining U.R.T.V. probably have a special relationship. But also who knows if U-DO could be somewhere else? And it could repeat all over again?
Final Fantasy X = Yevon - Die for Spira just to repeat the cycle all over again. Spiral of Death.
Sorry for those that don't agree with me, it's just what I see when I look at it.
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:53 am
Well the part about U-DO that confuses me is what exactly IS a "wave conciousness"? I've heard a lot of different interpretations of it, though a fairly common one is that it's a collection of souls. But then that begs the question of who's souls and where did the come from / how did they come to form this thing called U-DO. And if U-DO is just a collection of souls how is it "evil" -- what's its motive? Pied Piper showed us how it makes people go crazy, by showing them the "edge of the world" but beyond that it's a bitof a mystery (And THEN there's this whole thing about it being the Zohar control program AND the Unusmundus Drive Operation system -- again going with the prevalining theory of what a "wave conciousness" is, a collection of souls, how does that work for a control program?).
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