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 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:23 pm
Just wondering, in a libertarian government, would there be minimum wage? I thought about it for a while, and it sounds like there wouldn't. O__o
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:49 am
Strict libertarian? No.
However, the minimum wage is of benefit to the economy - America is consumer-drivin, and any money givin to the consumers is immediately spent on products, and so goes right back to the companies that paid it out while stimulating the economy.
A careful selection of a few socialist policies can dramatically improve the stability and strength of the market, resulting in a net gain.
(If this has a sort of drifting, disconnected flow to it, it's because it's so late that it's become early.)
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:25 pm
I'd vote for a repeal of all minimum wage laws myself, i think that a government can respect its people enough to negotiate their own wages without the government sticking its nose in. If someone isn't satisfied with their wages, they should just move on and find another employer willing to give them a fair or more than fair deal. Most employers will offer a fair deal because they want employees, if the wages are too low, they won't receive many applications. Look at a higher paying job unaffected by minimum wage like a nurse. Right now theres a great demand for more nurses, thus nurses are getting better and better salaries as clinics/hospitols etc. compete for them. It's basic economics. When you introduce a minimum wage, the employer doesn't magically have the money to pay his employees this amount. He'll either fire people until he's able to pay them or start losing money and go out of business.
Why do you think illegal aliens get jobs so easily, they're willing to accept wages under the legal minimum without complaining about it, because it's alot better than being flat-out broke and unemployed in Mexico. Anyone who complains about his low wages either needs to find a better boss or a higher-demanded vocation.
I say let the free market completely take this one.
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:18 pm
Sinew I'd vote for a repeal of all minimum wage laws myself, i think that a government can respect its people enough to negotiate their own wages without the government sticking its nose in. If someone isn't satisfied with their wages, they should just move on and find another employer willing to give them a fair or more than fair deal. Most employers will offer a fair deal because they want employees, if the wages are too low, they won't receive many applications. Look at a higher paying job unaffected by minimum wage like a nurse. Right now theres a great demand for more nurses, thus nurses are getting better and better salaries as clinics/hospitols etc. compete for them. It's basic economics. When you introduce a minimum wage, the employer doesn't magically have the money to pay his employees this amount. He'll either fire people until he's able to pay them or start losing money and go out of business. Why do you think illegal aliens get jobs so easily, they're willing to accept wages under the legal minimum without complaining about it, because it's alot better than being flat-out broke and unemployed in Mexico. Anyone who complains about his low wages either needs to find a better boss or a higher-demanded vocation. I say let the free market completely take this one. well a Free market would give more power to the worker since if their were no minimum wage then the worker would also have more power for the government would become less involved. The problem is that employers often opress hence the notion that most people (including myself) believe that Capitalism has only been alive due to its combination with Socialist aspects. For without Socialist tendencies i dont believe capitalism within th United States would have survived past the "Great Depression" Well are we also talking about the elimination of the Trade Unions as well? For that to would be something that would help the workers out for they could act for themselves.
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:09 pm
i'm saying that it is possible that employees can negotiate their wages/health care/vacation/etc. with their employers alllllll by themselves, without the government holding their hand. i dont see a problem with trade unions, people definately have the right to assemble as prescribed by the constitution, whether against or for their government, employers, or other organizations. if a group of people have a common interest, a union is certainly a legitimate tool in negotiating with the employer. but when you pull the government into it, i have a problem. instead of trying to work out a deal, and bring yours and their side to a fair solution, socialism relies on force. if they dont submit to the government's orders, they get shut down by those mustached men with badges and guns you see every time you try to get on an airplane. if you seriously want to blame the great depression or its recovery on political idealism, america is a very bad example, the depression hit much harder in Europe, which had been employing socialist policies decades before america even considered it. it has been argued that the welfare programs perpetuated the depression by discouraging people to find more work. the GD in the U.S.A. was caused by a huge bubble in the stock market building up from securities bought on margin, and it took time but the market recovered from it naturally, just like in the 1890s, the market goes up and down, blaming that on anything else (Clinton, Bush, terrorists, hippies...etc..) is just a tired attempt at stabbing at your political enemies. Quote: The problem is that employers often opress elaborate please, maybe that statement is a 'given' in socialist circles, but i haven't ever had that notion about employers. i've never worked for an employer that's opressed me, i would certainly find a new one if i did.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:45 pm
Even though I currently earn minimum wage since I'm only a poor college student, I would like to see the minimum be eliminated. I believe that business would be considerably more stable because they would pay salaries that they can afford. This can lead to expansionism and economic growth and stability. Due to the economic growth business will then need more workers to work their expanding enterprises. To gain more workers they will offer higher wages as incentives. Otherwise businessess will lose staff to other private enterprises.
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:38 pm
Here's a promotion for a book against minimum wage (no, i haven't read it, i read way too slow to buy any books on subjects that specific yet ^-^, so i won't comment) Quote: Minimum Wage Maximum Damage How the Minimum Wage Law Destroys Jobs, Perpetuates Poverty, and Erodes Freedom By Jim Cox If you are unfamiliar with the concepts in this short but idea-packed book, after you read it, you will never again look at the world in the same way. First, you will know more about the minimum wage than more than 99% of the world. More than that: you will know more about economics in general than that same 99%. Because the fundamental economic truths about the minimum wage that you are about to encounter apply to so many other issues as well. And to understand economics is to understand the way the world works. Still more: you will never watch TV news, read the newspaper, or listen to politicians in quite the same way again. This book is full of revelations. Every page has insights, facts and perspectives that most people have never encountered or considered. Here's just some of what you will learn: " What politicians know about the minimum wage that keeps them from raising it no more than a small amount at a time. " A fascinating economic proposal that would enormously benefit the working poor in America. (Hint: it's not the minimum wage.) " What percentage of minimum wage earners actually support families on their salary. " The fatal flaws in one of the most widely cited economic studies in defense of the minimum wage. " Why racist South African labor unions supported minimum wage laws for black workers. " What groups secretly benefit from the minimum wage. (Hint: it's not the poor and the unemployed.) " How the minimum wage renders racism cost-free. " What socioeconomic group is in a minimum-wage-caused full-blown economic depression -- right now. " Whether or not the minimum wage law is actually a "victimless crime" law. " What happened to elevator operators and movie ushers -- why they have virtually disappeared. " Why businesses don't pay everybody just the minimum wage, and why they already pay most people well above that. " How minimum wage laws give doctors, lawyers, executives, artists, college students and other people privileges and opportunities that are legally denied to unskilled workers. ...and that's just a taste of what awaits you inside. For two decades the Advocates has worked to take the ideas of liberty to the world. As part of this, we've put hundreds of articles on economic topics at our Web site. Of all those articles, a short article on the minimum wage by Jim Cox has been the single most in-demand. Students, business people, candidates, voters, and others are hungry to understand this vexing, confusing, but so-important issue. Now Jim Cox has done us all a tremendous service. He has produced this short, wonderfully concise, easy-to-read and easy-to-understand exploration of this issue. Jim is highly qualified to do this. He combines an economist's knowledge of the subject with a master teacher's ability to communicate. And the presentation is made all the more compelling by his passion for liberty and his compassion for the impoverished and unskilled workers who are victimized by this misguided government policy. If you ever plan to talk with others about free-market ideas, you're likely to be asked about the minimum wage. After reading this booklet, you'll know the answers - and you'll have the facts at hand to make a persuasive case. Whether you're a student of economics, a would-be candidate for public office, or just curious, the author of The Concise Guide to Economics now gives you a "concise guide" to this very important subject. The Advocates for Self-Government is proud to publish this enlightening and thought-provoking work. About the Author: Jim Cox is an Associate Professor of Economics and Political Science at Georgia Perimeter College in Atlanta. He is the author of The Concise Guide to Economics, and has published articles in The Orange County Registers, The Cleveland Plain Dealer, Creative Loafing, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and others. Yanked from: http://www.theadvocates.org/mw.html
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:04 pm
5ubliminalM355ag35 Even though I currently earn minimum wage since I'm only a poor college student, I would like to see the minimum be eliminated. I believe that business would be considerably more stable because they would pay salaries that they can afford. This can lead to expansionism and economic growth and stability. Due to the economic growth business will then need more workers to work their expanding enterprises. To gain more workers they will offer higher wages as incentives. Otherwise businessess will lose staff to other private enterprises. I agree to an extent. Smaller business will be able to pay what they can afford and stay stable if minimum wage laws are revoked, but what about the major corporations. Surely they can afford them. Also, minimum wage laws are very damaging to the workers that think it is helping them. Sure thay get paid a couple bucks more because the law forces it, but after the minimum wage goes up doesn't the cost of living also. Minimum wage workers tell that they can barely live off of what they are making the cost of living is so high. But when the congress raises the minimum, the price for living and a future will go up. Is minimum wage the sole reason for the inflation, no, just one of them. But the fact remains that it is still a factor. It is a game of chase. The workers think that raising the minimum will improve their lives, but for how long. How long will it take for the same problem to reoccur and how long will it take for us to look at the problem and find another way to solve it.
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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:30 am
corporations aren't as rich as you think. they pay realistic wages just like any other business, they pay too little, they lose employees, they pay too much, they lose money- or don't make as much money as they can. and when they don't make as much money as they can, stockholders sell. the business run by one man follows the same plan, because that one man wants to make more money too. whether or not you think that's fair, it's basic capitalism.
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:42 pm
libertarians do not want minimum wage. They are harmful to the economy. They hurt small businesses and teenagers. Not everybody is worth the minimum wage price. And the reason why it was created doesn't do its duty.
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:44 am
Sinew I'd vote for a repeal of all minimum wage laws myself, i think that a government can respect its people enough to negotiate their own wages without the government sticking its nose in. If someone isn't satisfied with their wages, they should just move on and find another employer willing to give them a fair or more than fair deal. Most employers will offer a fair deal because they want employees, if the wages are too low, they won't receive many applications. Look at a higher paying job unaffected by minimum wage like a nurse. Right now theres a great demand for more nurses, thus nurses are getting better and better salaries as clinics/hospitols etc. compete for them. It's basic economics. When you introduce a minimum wage, the employer doesn't magically have the money to pay his employees this amount. He'll either fire people until he's able to pay them or start losing money and go out of business. Why do you think illegal aliens get jobs so easily, they're willing to accept wages under the legal minimum without complaining about it, because it's alot better than being flat-out broke and unemployed in Mexico. Anyone who complains about his low wages either needs to find a better boss or a higher-demanded vocation. I say let the free market completely take this one. yeah, you're right. Nurses and teachers are in great demand. Private schools are willing to pay someone big money if they want to teach. Hell, I bet if private colleges allied themselves with schools....I bet they can get a deal like "if you plan on becoming a teacher...we will pay for your tuition." This man here has a point about minimum wage.
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Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:39 am
I do not believe a minimum wage is necessary, and it may even harm things.
In some governments, instead of having minimum wages, they have strong unions. This means the companies can demand that people work hard, and at the same time the unions can demand that the laborers get decent pay.
In a system with a minimum wage, companies can just pay that minimum wage and then say that it's "fair." Also, in our present system, our labor unions have weakened, making things harder on the worker.
So once more, promote citizen-run unions over government controlled economy.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:22 am
Isn't minimum wage the cause of outsourcing? It's cheaper to pay $.10/day to a six-year-old in a Chinese factory than $20/hour to a college grad.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:55 pm
probably a good part of it. especially when it comes to stuff like customer service. if you have 50-60 CS reps, working minimum wage ($5.15/hour) (more likely a few cents more) then outsourcing the CS department alone to India would be justifiable when the minimum wage there is in the neighborhood of 15 cents an hour (I think its more variant by region there) i don't know what the international phone rates to india are, but it's certainly less than 5 bucks an hour if you buy bulk.
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Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:50 pm
Tanasha Strict libertarian? No. However, the minimum wage is of benefit to the economy - America is consumer-drivin, and any money givin to the consumers is immediately spent on products, and so goes right back to the companies that paid it out while stimulating the economy. A careful selection of a few socialist policies can dramatically improve the stability and strength of the market, resulting in a net gain. (If this has a sort of drifting, disconnected flow to it, it's because it's so late that it's become early.) you mis-understand basic economics. If wages were the cause of prosperity and the cause of stimulating the economy.....we should force companies to charge each person $100 an hour...and the economy should be booming. But we all know that would be bad. It would create massive unemployment and a huge downturn in the economy. High wages = an effect of good economics.....not the cause of it. And I disagree with socialist policies. Any socialist policy will do more harm than good. Each business owner should be able to do what is best for their business. You have the right to do what is best for you.... a business should have the same right. That's equality.
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