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Since we all seem to be on fire to discuss this, I thought I'd create a thread that is in no way intended to be directed at any one person, in no way references any previous discussions, arguments or comments, and I'll even try to keep it sarcasm-free. surprised

Pregnancy is like lapsang souchong tea.

The darker the roast, the better.

...Wait, wrong analogy... sweatdrop

Seriously: It is neither good, nor bad, in and of itself. It simply is. Some people like it, some don't. For some, it is the best thing to happen to them in their entire life. For some, it's the worst. This is all a matter of opinion, of perception. The essential fact is that a human sperm sticks its spermy head into a human egg and a new human starts growing inside a woman. Whether the woman is ecstatic about this, or suicidal, or somewhere in the middle, depends on her view of pregnancy. Basically, whether she wanted to be pregnant or not. If somebody gave me 5 kg of fine lapsang souchong as a present, I'd be squeeing. If somebody gave my sister, who thinks it smells like burning tires, the same, she'd probably hit them.

For a better analogy, closer to the situation of abortion, I relate to you a recent experience of mine, discovering I had mice in my house (which I share with my mom in my apartment and a tenant in another). I love animals, house mice included. My tenant is terrified of them. My mother considers them "vermin." My mother, without asking me, as she knew I'd say no, went out and bought poison and placed it around MY house. I found it and threw it out, but it was too late and I found a dead mouse soon after.

My mom might argue that it was justifiable to kill the mouse. I say no. Because I saw the mouse as a relatively harmless and innocent intruder, while she saw it as a harmful intruder deserving of death. Our opinions do not change anything about the mouse nor the facts surrounding it.

The facts being:
The mouse is an independent, living being, as much of one as a full grown human.
The mouse did not intend to cause any harm to others, specifically the humans in the house, and, left alone, probably would never cause any significant harm. Unlike, say, a burglar or a filovirus.

If you're going to form an unbiased, just opinion on what should happen to the mouse, it must be based on facts, along with a natural sense of compassion (I assume for sake of argument that all those reading this would view an act such as dropping an H-bomb on London for the hell of it as Wrong.)

Assuming the absence of a sentient higher power controlling events in human lives, pregnancy cannot be a punishment, because, barring an attack with a turkey baster, it cannot be forced upon someone.

The argument, of course, is not whether women should be held down and impregnated for being sexually active, and not even whether women should be allowed to take steps to prevent pregnancy even while being sexually active. It's whether a woman should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy because she doesn't want it.

But the facts are clear: terminating a pregnancy is not like throwing a sack of tea in the garbage, it's more like poisoning a mouse. A fetus dies. That's the whole point of an abortion: to kill a living fetus.

Assuming a normal pregnancy, the fetus, like the mouse, is a viable living being and did not invade a woman's body with the intent to harm, and will not harm her even unintentionally. We know that a woman's opinion of a pregnancy as horrible and traumatic is wholly a matter of opinion simply from the fact that many women enjoy, look forward to, and actively pursue pregnancy. Nobody thinks a tumor is a blessing. It makes sense to want to get rid of one. But a fetus is different. Like a mouse or a dandelion or Camellia sinensis, it is not guilty of anything nor required to conform to your opinion of what is good.

As I believe I've argued before, abortion is not about forcing a woman to stay pregnant because we want her to be pregnant. It's because we don't want a fetus to die. If there were a way to make a woman not pregnant without harming a fetus, I doubt any people who consider themselves "pro-life" would object. No, really. This is not about forcing pregnancy. It's about protecting life. That is the pro-life motivation for opposing abortion.

Twinings makes it, you can probably find it in your average large supermarket but definitely in tea shops. It's smoked over pine wood, so it's all smoky-tasting. 3nodding As I mentioned, some people think it's gross. Smell before you buy, if you can. (And you can probably smell it through the package) eek

actually, pregnancy is unlike a rodent infestation in at least one aspect- the homeowner doesn't place cheese crumbs and peanut butter around the framework of their house.

what i'm getting at is- havign sex invites pregnancy. it actually invites it. while owning a home is passive, and the mice must come to it, a woman must MAKE a pregnancy happen by taking certain known steps

I get what your saying.
Mice you usually don't invite in your home but if you have sex and know all the conciquence about sex then you should know that pregnancy is a possiblity and like or not the baby is "invited", it didn't show up out of no where on it's own like mice.

Pregnancy isn't a punishment but more like a conciquence that results from having sex. Conciquences can be good or bad.

If it was a punishment then there would be no planned child out there, all pregnancies would be unplanned.

As much as I would enjoy Johnny Depp stopping by (so I could invite him in and ask him about Hunter S. Thompson), I think that pregnancy is a bit more complex than that. Johnny Depp doesn't press on your bladder and make your back hurt and your ankles swell. *wink*

Agreed. Unless I guess some woman was locked up and forced to become pregnant by some crazy man who was doing it to somehow punish her? That would be a punishment, but really is a crazy stretch (though, to be fair, some crazy person on another site did tell me they were going to do that to me... *shakes head*).

Heh. I think that there aren't many people who would claim that Mary was gotten pregnant by God as a punishment. *grin* It's sort of a funny idea: Angel: "You will give birth to the Son of God, Savior of man."
Mary: "No! What a horrible punishment!"
*laughs* Yeah, not very plausible.

Something in that really got to me...

I would respond with, it is not anyone's place to tell someone how to live their life.

I support anyone who chooses to keep a pregnancy. I agree, keeping a pregnancy and trying to make your life work is a very decent thing to do. Raising and loving a child, or giving them to a good home that will raise and love them, is very, very important.

I just feel that only the woman in the situation (with, I hope, the help of the man involved, and possibly her friends and family) can make the choice to keep that pregnancy, or to terminate it. I don't think that legally forcing someone to make the choice you or I might want them to make is the right option, or ethically sound.

But I see your point. I can see why you would feel that keeping a pregnancy is a better choice, from your point of view.

Some places, like my own state, do require that you try to help someone who is injured on the street. However, the law requires that you offer help only if doing so doesn't put you at risk of injury or death. Since pregnancy does put people at risk of injury and death the comparison still stands.
I just wanted to point out that some places do require you to offer aid when it doesn't put you at risk.

I have to agree with Zin. Not entierly mind you. I wouldn't agree with abortion for any case, but there are times when it is understandable and time to simply stay back and only offer support. This time I see as only when the mother's life is threatend